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View Poll Results: Who deserves a title shot more?
Quinton "Rampage" Jackson 12 30.77%
Lyoto "Dragon" Machida 27 69.23%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-24-2012, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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I don't get the idea of fighters not owning UFC anything. If not for the UFC, what would these fighters be doing and how much money would they be making? UFC has made Jon Jones.
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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UFC wouldn't make any money without fighters. It goes both ways.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bosanac01 View Post
I don't get the idea of fighters not owning UFC anything. If not for the UFC, what would these fighters be doing and how much money would they be making? UFC has made Jon Jones.
Jones probably could have just gone into football....like everyone else in his family
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Tha Wootster View Post
UFC wouldn't make any money without fighters. It goes both ways.
This is not true. Most of the fans don't even know who the good fighters are. They know who the UFC tells them is good. See: PRIDE HW division and UFC fans thinking Sylvia and Arlovski were top HWs.

The UFC makes fighters what they are.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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This is not true. Most of the fans don't even know who the good fighters are. They know who the UFC tells them is good. See: PRIDE HW division and UFC fans thinking Sylvia and Arlovski were top HWs.

The UFC makes fighters what they are.
UFC was more available here.
If both were available her at the same rate, then I doubt that most fans would have felt that way.

If your only exposure is to one brand of course you will think it is superior to the other brand.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Y'all need to listen to cudders..the man knows what he's saying.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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UFC was more available here.
If both were available her at the same rate, then I doubt that most fans would have felt that way.

If your only exposure is to one brand of course you will think it is superior to the other brand.
Obviously. But the point is that the UFC made all these guys. If they weren't signed by the UFC, nobody would know who they are. The UFC would have kept ticking.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Obviously. But the point is that the UFC made all these guys. If they weren't signed by the UFC, nobody would know who they are. The UFC would have kept ticking.
So because the UFC essentially has a monopoly on MMA, fighters should just yield to Dana White and ignore what is best for them?

Jon Jones would be a star where ever he fights. With MMA as popular as it is, if Pride (or comparable MMA org to UFC) were around and Jones were to fight there he would be a star.

MMA is just more popular now. Fighters wouldn't need the UFC if they didn't have a monopoly.

All your AA and Timmy example does is show that before MMA was big and no one knew about Pride (largely) they thought the only good HW were the ones they knew? Im ******* shocked.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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So because the UFC essentially has a monopoly on MMA, fighters should just yield to Dana White and ignore what is best for them?

Jon Jones would be a star where ever he fights. With MMA as popular as it is, if Pride (or comparable MMA org to UFC) were around and Jones were to fight there he would be a star.

MMA is just more popular now. Fighters wouldn't need the UFC if they didn't have a monopoly.

All your AA and Timmy example does is show that before MMA was big and no one knew about Pride (largely) they thought the only good HW were the ones they knew? Im ******* shocked.
The point is that if you don't fight in the UFC, these days you aren't a star. Period.

Not that this is at all what the JJ hate is about, but still.....everyone ivolved in MMA owes the UFC and Dana White an immeasurable amount for what they have done to grow the sport.....if you don't see that then you're delusional.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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The point is that if you don't fight in the UFC, these days you aren't a star. Period.

Not that this is at all what the JJ hate is about, but still.....everyone ivolved in MMA owes the UFC and Dana White an immeasurable amount for what they have done to grow the sport.....if you don't see that then you're delusional.
Yeah give them a round of applause but dont be stupid with your own career. You can go from G.O.A.T. to perennial challenger (Lyoto) in one match.
If he felt he would have been ill-prepared for the fight then don't take it.

Of course right now you wont be, but that is why I said if they didnt have the monopoly.

And lets not act like Dana White handled this the right way. He didn't. In typical Dana fashion he cried, whined, said ****, blamed a lot of people and then said **** more. He didn't have to cancel UFC 151. Im sure he could have scrapped something together for a main event. You know, since every other fight is SOOOO willing to jump in on 8 days notice. But instead, he packed up his toys and went home so no one can fight. It wouldn't have been a great UFC event by any means, but it is still an UFC event and would have sold.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Machida stated that 4 weeks is too short to prepare for Jones, and he'll be willing to fight him at UFC 153 in Rio. JJ is pretty much hated now, so Machida would be the crowd favorite wherever he plays. If he he refuses to fight him anywhere other than Brazil, then he doesn't deserve it.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Machida stated that 4 weeks is too short to prepare for Jones, and he'll be willing to fight him at UFC 153 in Rio. JJ is pretty much hated now, so Machida would be the crowd favorite wherever he plays. If he he refuses to fight him anywhere other than Brazil, then he doesn't deserve it.
He won't do that. If for some reason he does, I would agree with you.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Shogun turned down the fight too and Jones opens as a 13-1 favorite over Vitor.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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This is not true. Most of the fans don't even know who the good fighters are. They know who the UFC tells them is good. See: PRIDE HW division and UFC fans thinking Sylvia and Arlovski were top HWs.

The UFC makes fighters what they are.
The fighters also are vitally important to UFC's success. See: the cancellation of this event because the headliner won't be there.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Shogun turned down the fight too and Jones opens as a 13-1 favorite over Vitor.
Shogun is a ******* asshole! OMG I hate him sooo much
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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So because the UFC essentially has a monopoly on MMA, fighters should just yield to Dana White and ignore what is best for them?

Jon Jones would be a star where ever he fights. With MMA as popular as it is, if Pride (or comparable MMA org to UFC) were around and Jones were to fight there he would be a star.

MMA is just more popular now. Fighters wouldn't need the UFC if they didn't have a monopoly.

All your AA and Timmy example does is show that before MMA was big and no one knew about Pride (largely) they thought the only good HW were the ones they knew? Im ******* shocked.
No. Fighters shouldn’t just bow to Dana White’s whims. But let’s be serious. White wasn’t making exorbitant demands of Bones. He never asked him to jump in the Octagon with Anderson Silva on a week’s notice. He asked him to fight a suitable replacement in Chael Sonnen to salvage an unfortunate situation. One that has a little name recognition and a similar approach to his previous opponent, so all of his training camp wouldn’t have been for naught. What is so ridiculous about that request?

And, sure, Jon Jones would be an organizational star wherever he fights. That’s true. But, there isn’t a comparable organization to the UFC out there and he wouldn’t be the crossover star he is now without them. Those are the realities. No one on Madison Avenue is jumping over themselves for a pitchman from Bellator because no one knows about Bellator outside of a dedicated MMA fan and that’s such an insignificant demographic. The UFC is the reason Jones has the endorsement deals and popular appeal he does. Because no one would care about him if just beat up cans in some far corner of the world or at convention centers across the United States. Just like most MMA fans never appreciated or cared about Fedor.

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Yeah give them a round of applause but dont be stupid with your own career. You can go from G.O.A.T. to perennial challenger (Lyoto) in one match.
If he felt he would have been ill-prepared for the fight then don't take it.

Of course right now you wont be, but that is why I said if they didnt have the monopoly.

And lets not act like Dana White handled this the right way. He didn't. In typical Dana fashion he cried, whined, said ****, blamed a lot of people and then said **** more. He didn't have to cancel UFC 151. Im sure he could have scrapped something together for a main event. You know, since every other fight is SOOOO willing to jump in on 8 days notice. But instead, he packed up his toys and went home so no one can fight. It wouldn't have been a great UFC event by any means, but it is still an UFC event and would have sold.
Would Jones be as prepared for Sonnen as he would like? No, of course not. There are slight variances in each fighter’s game. But Sonnen would be ill-prepared for him, too. I doubt Chael, in response to losing to Anderson, has become a recluse and consumed himself with Jon Jones non-stop in the off-chance that he gets to fight him in the future. Has he watched some footage and helped Hendo as a training partner? I would think so. But Jones has been drilling for Hendo and has a Greco-Roman background himself. The techniques don’t change because the opponents do.

To the other point, Dana White isn’t perfect. He gets more emotional than most executives. But he made the effort to scrape something up. Jon Jones just wasn’t willing to meet him. And the notion that two random, willing fighters would suffice as a replacement is misguided. People paid to see Jon Jones. Not two replacement fighters. The championship bout was the draw and headliner for a reason. Getting two game brawlers to agree to fight on a week’s notice doesn’t have the same appeal and the PPV numbers would’ve reflected that fact.

Could the event have carried on? That’s the UFC’s decision. But it’s important to remember the UFC is coming off disappointing PPV numbers from Henderson vs. Edger II. Maybe the UFC wanted to avoid a second consecutive event with a sub-250,000 buyrate. Maybe Dana White really wanted Bones to feel some blowback. I don’t know.

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Shogun is a ******* asshole! OMG I hate him sooo much
I understand the sarcasm, but there’s a clear difference here. Jones was in training camp, preparing for a similar fighter, and then turned down a less dangerous challenger. As the champion. Shogun, on the other hand, might not have even started his training camp and would be jumping in against the more dangerous fighter. Champions are held to a higher standard. Jones didn’t respect that standard.

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The fighters also are vitally important to UFC's success. See: the cancellation of this event because the headliner won't be there.
It’s certainly a symbiotic relationship. The UFC exploded before Jon Jones and will survive after Jon Jones though. The UFC needs to maintain a certain talent level on its roster for credible purposes, for sure, but it could give other fighters a platform much easier than Jon Jones could find another one.
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Jones goes into a fight with Sonnen with everything to lose.
Sonnen doesnt even fight at that weight class so **** it for him, go all out.
If he losses oh well, he wins hell yeah.

Jones could risk injury or a one in a million Matt Serra over GSP loss to Sonnen.
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengals78 View Post
Jones goes into a fight with Sonnen with everything to lose.
Sonnen doesnt even fight at that weight class so **** it for him, go all out.
If he losses oh well, he wins hell yeah.

Jones could risk injury or a one in a million Matt Serra over GSP loss to Sonnen.
Point 1: He does this every time he steps in the octagon considering he has pretty much cleaned out 205.

Point 2: Again, every time he steps in the octagon. Furthermore, that loss really ruined GSP's career, huh?

You're arguments just don't make any sense.
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rob S View Post
Point 1: He does this every time he steps in the octagon considering he has pretty much cleaned out 205.

Point 2: Again, every time he steps in the octagon. Furthermore, that loss really ruined GSP's career, huh?

You're arguments just don't make any sense.
Except when he does it against Shogun, Henderson etc he isn't doing it for no good reason.

Did I say ruin? No. But it sure as hell looks ugly on his record and then we would have to deal with the "The playbook on how to beat Jones!" and "Jones was never that good!" Until he ultimately comes back and destroys Sonnen in match 2. Are you that big of a Sonnen fan you want him around and in the main event talk more? I mean hell, even if he just puts up a halfway decent challenge it wouldn't stop from Sonnen.

Here Jon, take this match where nothing good for you can come from it. Sounds cool.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
I used to be a big-time fan of Jon Jones and his talent, but this is a huge hit for me
Cool story brah

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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
Jones doesn’t owe the UFC? Huh? The UFC and Dana White have dumped a lot of resources into building a platform for Jon Jones and making him a superstar with crossover appeal. Bones got and still gets a ton of face time and he’s turned those opportunities into lucrative endorsement deals. Because of the UFC, Jones is able to live the life that he does. Sure, if the UFC cut Jones, a smaller promotion would jump at his potential and he would still fight. But let’s be real about the current state of MMA. Mainstream MMA begins and ends with the UFC.


Before Bones crushed Bader at UFC 119, the latter was undefeated and had people believing he was a phenom. The UFC could’ve pushed and marketed Bader and his impressive wrestling credentials instead. But the UFC didn’t. The UFC positioned Jones as “The Next Generation of Fighters” even before that and then fed Bader to Jones and Bones took the darling crown for good.

They market him because he is good. They wouldn't market him if he sucked . It also didn't hurt that he is one of the few championship caliber fighters that can speak english and American. Who is the UFC going to market in the LHW division to Americans? Rampage? Shogun? Again he doesn't owe the UFC anything he has made more money for the UFC than the UFC has made him.He also bringing in sponsors like Nike to the UFC. LoL at UFC pushing Bader anyone with 2 eyes could see that Jones was the better up and coming fighter and was going to win.

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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
Because a replacement couldn’t be found, an event had to be cancelled. Which, again, shows wanton disregard for his promoters, his fellow fighters, and his fan base.

Forget whether he believes Chael deserved it. Ignoring the arrogance in holding that belief, that doesn’t matter. The UFC believed Chael deserved it. That’s all that matters.
Dana should of had a solid back-up plan cause you know fighters get injured all the time. How many headliners have been injured before their fight these last couple of years? Jones was looking out for #1 himself like he should. LoL at UFC or anyone elsebelieving that Chael Sonnen deserved a title. BTW Dana even said that Chael didn't deserve a title shot during one of his conferences or interviews. Jones even offered to fight him next month and Dana was like naw.

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You might argue Chael is irrelevant without Anderson Silva, but the man knows how to promote a fight. He wouldn’t have built it into a must-see megafight in just a week, but he would’ve spouted off enough garbage to attract at least some interest.
What fight has he promoted besides the Silva fight that has done any numbers? No one cared about his comeback fight against Stann.

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to that last point, Jon Jones doesn’t deserve to be mentioned next to Anderson Silva or Georges St. Pierre in terms of being a true champion. I don’t care if he’s defended his title twice as much as both of them combined in the same span. He lost that right when he refused to fight a challenger
He is the 2nd best UFC fighter and champion behind Silva

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Old 08-24-2012, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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This is not true. Most of the fans don't even know who the good fighters are. They know who the UFC tells them is good. See: PRIDE HW division and UFC fans thinking Sylvia and Arlovski were top HWs.

The UFC makes fighters what they are.
Yet they had to cancel the fight. If UFC could make the fighters who they are than they would have more superstars not just a couple.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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I don't blame Jones for not taking the fight with Sonnen at 151. The circumstances weren't very good as he wouldn't have had his camp. However, I'm not buying it when he says Chael is a completely different fighter. Chael is a poor man's Hendo.

I don't blame Lyoto for not taking the fight on short notice, either.

That said, while Vitor has everything you need to beat Jones, he's a terrible 205er. When he doesn't have to work to make weight, he gets super lazy. I don't trust Vitor to come to this fight prepared at all. And Vitor is one of my favorite fighters.
Well he just joined the Blackzillians.
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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It’s certainly a symbiotic relationship. The UFC exploded before Jon Jones and will survive after Jon Jones though. The UFC needs to maintain a certain talent level on its roster for credible purposes, for sure, but it could give other fighters a platform much easier than Jon Jones could find another one.
While I fully understand your position, and actually agree with it, any sport organization is only as strong as its most marketable stars. Just as LeBron depends on the NBA, Jon Jones depends on UFC. However, both stars make the companies far more money than they'd make otherwise. The fact that it's a two-way relationship doesn't mean that the athlete should bow down to the organization.

I will say that Jones really should consider doing something for the other fighters at this event. It'd be a chunk of change to pay them all, but the PR bump might be worth it, because he's due for a huge downturn in popularity right now.
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Old 08-25-2012, 02:41 AM    (permalink
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They market him because he is good. They wouldn't market him if he sucked . It also didn't hurt that he is one of the few championship caliber fighters that can speak english and American. Who is the UFC going to market in the LHW division to Americans? Rampage? Shogun? Again he doesn't owe the UFC anything he has made more money for the UFC than the UFC has made him.He also bringing in sponsors like Nike to the UFC. LoL at UFC pushing Bader anyone with 2 eyes could see that Jones was the better up and coming fighter and was going to win.
He can speak English? Who cares?

The UFC doesn’t need to adopt a jingoistic marketing approach. The UFC knows it has the power to sustain in domestic markets. The UFC is transitioning to globalizing their brand now. American fighters aren’t an integral, strategic component in that. Georges St. Pierre, Michael Bisping, Junior Dos Santos, Jose Aldo, Shogun, and Cain Velasquez are all well-known and well-promoted fighters within the States. French-Canadian, British, a few Brazilians, and a Mexican-American.

And, again, how doesn’t Jon Jones owe the UFC in the slightest? Because he’s made them a lot of cash? Ok? A bunch of fighters have done that in the past and a bunch of fighters will do that in the future. Bones isn’t bigger than the UFC. You know who would go through the trouble of watching his fights online if he was cut tomorrow? Hardcore MMA fans. You know how much of the population is comprised of hardcore MMA fans? Not much. You know what Jon Jones was asked to do for the UFC? Fight an inferior opponent from a lower weight class on short notice so the event could go on. Not what I’d call a ridiculous request of a headliner.

And Anderson Silva had a Nike sponsorship before Jon Jones did. Bones wasn’t the pioneer of that. Nike’s attracted to the idea of building a stable of world-class athletes from all sports. Bones happens to be one. That’s the reason he was signed. As far as I know, Nike isn’t injecting windfalls of cash into the UFC itself, so he’s not responsible for creating another stream of revenue for the promotion either.

And Bader was a 12-0 LHW prospect on the rise at the time of their fight. The UFC could’ve still promoted him even without the same substance. A lot of casual MMA fans will eat up whatever the UFC feeds them. See the Brock Lesnar phenomenon that swept MMA. Were his all-around, technical abilities so impressive? Nope. The man had an elite wrestling base, brute size and strength, and not much else. But, at the peak of his short career, Dana lauded him as the greatest HW of all-time and claimed he would dominate Fedor and people bought into that notion hook, line, and sinker.

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Dana should of had a solid back-up plan cause you know fighters get injured all the time. How many headliners have been injured before their fight these last couple of years? Jones was looking out for #1 himself like he should. LoL at UFC or anyone elsebelieving that Chael Sonnen deserved a title. BTW Dana even said that Chael didn't deserve a title shot during one of his conferences or interviews. Jones even offered to fight him next month and Dana was like naw.
He's been dealing with unprecedented circumstances since his champion turned down an inferior challenger…

What kind of back-up plan though? Bring two different fighters in for the main event? Jones was the draw. The UFC invested valuable resources and time toward gearing the event around him. Is the promotion just supposed to ignore all of that? Scrap it, shelve Jones, and just figure other logistics out? Slide Ellenberger vs. Heiron up to top-billing? Good luck selling that. Bump Benavidez vs. Johnson or Bisping vs. Stann up from the next PPV? That card has issues as is. Move Aldo’s next defense up a full month-and-a-half? Ok, now we’re affecting two title fights because Jon Jones doesn’t feel 100% comfortable with the situation. Does Greg Jackson fluff his pillow for him before bedtime, too?

To the latter point, of course Chael is an unconventional opponent and doesn’t "deserve" it in a traditional sense. It was an unconventional situation and he didn’t beat the traditional gatekeepers at 205. But, like it or not, Chael was the person the UFC wanted to put in front of Jones because it could have saved the event in Las Vegas. Jones declined. The event fell apart. When the event fell apart, Dana was able to at least find a replacement that fights in the same division as him. This isn’t that convoluted.

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Originally Posted by Complex View Post
What fight has he promoted besides the Silva fight that has done any numbers? No one cared about his comeback fight against Stann.
You’re ignoring the important qualifier there. Would Chael turn this into a megafight? No, I don’t think so. I said as much. But would he sell it a whole lot better than Vitor Belfort would? Yeah, he sure would. Like I said, he would spout off enough nonsense for some of the interest in the PPV to rebound. Like Anderson, and unlike Stann, Jones is a name that people recognize and want more of. When Chael starts to throw around some of his barbs, people will listen because the target is Jon Jones. A champion, the prodigal future, and trumpeted pound-for-pound great. Not a mid-tier middleweight that the casual observer couldn’t care less about.

A businessman (like Bones claims to be) should realizes there's a whole lot more that's promotable in a fight with Chael than there is with Vitor.

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Originally Posted by Complex View Post
He is the 2nd best UFC fighter and champion behind Silva
I think he’s got an argument for most talented fighter in the promotion. I never denied his talent. What I challenged was his championship presence. I still haven’t heard a good reason for declining this fight. Not one. He should look out for number one because he doesn’t owe the UFC? He should have more time to prepare for Chael so he doesn’t fall victim to an upset? Huh? Is this still MMA we’re talking about? Jones is vulnerable to an unpredictable knockout or freak finish each time he steps through the Octagon door. Whether he’s fighting Chael Sonnen or Vitor Belfort or Dan Henderson, he could lose. That’s just the nature of the sport he’s in.

And now his promoters, his fellow fighters, and some of his fans look at him with “disgust” and view him as a “fraud” and “selfish” and “bad for the sport” and on and on. Yeah, looking out for number one sure seemed to do him a load of good here…

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Originally Posted by mqtirishfan View Post
While I fully understand your position, and actually agree with it, any sport organization is only as strong as its most marketable stars. Just as LeBron depends on the NBA, Jon Jones depends on UFC. However, both stars make the companies far more money than they'd make otherwise. The fact that it's a two-way relationship doesn't mean that the athlete should bow down to the organization.
Like I said, I do concede that it goes both directions. When Jon Jones fights, the UFC knows a lot of people are going to watch because he possesses tantalizing talent. He’s a safe investment right now and he’s not an expiring asset either. He’s still got a bright, profitable future with the UFC. No business would turn that down. But I still maintain the point that the UFC can replace Jon Jones far easier than Jon Jones can replace the UFC.
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