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View Poll Results: Who would you build around?
Darrelle Revis 27 31.40%
Haloti Ngata 21 24.42%
Jason Pierre-Paul 11 12.79%
Patrick Willis 15 17.44%
DeMarcus Ware 5 5.81%
Clay Matthews 0 0%
Terrell Suggs 0 0%
Ndamukong Suh 4 4.65%
Mario Williams 0 0%
Other 3 3.49%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-19-2012, 02:34 PM    (permalink
The Alex
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If I could get a player from each tier, here's what I would do:

Tier I - Darrelle Revis, CB
Tier II - Eric Berry, S
Tier III - Ed Reed, S
Tier IV - Patrick Peterson, CB

With teams putting the ball in the air more than they ever have before, give me four guys who can shut down receivers and create turnovers.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Alex View Post
If I could get a player from each tier, here's what I would do:

Tier I - Darrelle Revis, CB
Tier II - Eric Berry, S
Tier III - Ed Reed, S
Tier IV - Patrick Peterson, CB

With teams putting the ball in the air more than they ever have before, give me four guys who can shut down receivers and create turnovers.
Their job is going to be a lot harder if your defensive line is sub par.
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Alex View Post
If I could get a player from each tier, here's what I would do:

Tier I - Darrelle Revis, CB
Tier II - Eric Berry, S
Tier III - Ed Reed, S
Tier IV - Patrick Peterson, CB

With teams putting the ball in the air more than they ever have before, give me four guys who can shut down receivers and create turnovers.
Like Ness said, no secondary can cover for 10 seconds with today's rule. Pressuring the QB is a much more efficient way to stop the pass, just look at what the Giants did against Brady in 2007. The Giants secondary was pretty average that year
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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If this was a "Who is the best player in relation to other positions?" poll, then Revis would definitely win, but it's not. It's about building a defense. You start in the trenches.
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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If this was a "Who is the best player in relation to other positions?" poll, then Revis would definitely win, but it's not. It's about building a defense. You start in the trenches.
You're completely missing the point of that argument. Revis is a 10, and from there on out, everyone else is an 8 or below. There are more 10s and 9s at the DL and LB position that you can choose from, therefore giving Revis higher priority and value because of his amazing play and his scarcity.

If you're building a defense and had the first overall pick, with however many teams after you, you have to take things like that into consideration.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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So has Nnamdi been a bust in Philly? I saw him get beat by Jacoby Jones on a TD last Sunday. Really haven't heard much about him though.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Pretty much, from what i hear. Has done nothing impressive. As far as it being scheme, or him playing how he isn't accustomed to, i wouldn't be able to say. But i'm sure some Iggle fans on here could explain why he hasn't lived up to his billing.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
You're completely missing the point of that argument. Revis is a 10, and from there on out, everyone else is an 8 or below. There are more 10s and 9s at the DL and LB position that you can choose from, therefore giving Revis higher priority and value because of his amazing play and his scarcity.

If you're building a defense and had the first overall pick, with however many teams after you, you have to take things like that into consideration.
Reed, Woodson, Peterson, Joseph, Polamalu, Thomas, and Haden are all 9s, and some could even be 10s.

Nnamdi is not a bust. He might not be worth 12 mil, but he's played fine. Other than the TD he gave up in the last game, he only allowed 2 recs for 30 yards.

EDIT: And he only allowed 1 rec against the Browns, but they're the Browns.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Their job is going to be a lot harder if your defensive line is sub par.
I was thinking that if I make my secondary All-Pro caliber, I would make my defensive line average and my linebackers would be subpar. Which I think is pretty darn good overall.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Reed, Woodson, Peterson, Joseph, Polamalu, Thomas, and Haden are all 9s, and some could even be 10s.
Reed and Woodson are old, and neither are playing anywhere near a 9 level right now. They still make plays but they aren't consistent playmakers, and you're throwing safeties into a discussion of corners. That's stupid. And Polamalu is garbage, gtfo with that. Peterson is highly talented but c'mon, putting him a tier below what Revis has done is an insult. Haden is the only one i'd argue is a notch below Revis.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Pretty much, from what i hear. Has done nothing impressive. As far as it being scheme, or him playing how he isn't accustomed to, i wouldn't be able to say. But i'm sure some Iggle fans on here could explain why he hasn't lived up to his billing.
Last year the scheme favored Asante's tendency to bait QBs into throws and jump routes, so we played a lot of zone and Nnamdi just wasn't Nnamdi..now with DRC on the outside it's more press-man and hopefully Nnamdi is back in his element. I haven't specifically watched him in either game yet this year so I can't really fairly comment on that
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Reed and Woodson are old, and neither are playing anywhere near a 9 level right now. They still make plays but they aren't consistent playmakers, and you're throwing safeties into a discussion of corners. That's stupid. And Polamalu is garbage, gtfo with that. Peterson is highly talented but c'mon, putting him a tier below what Revis has done is an insult. Haden is the only one i'd argue is a notch below Revis.
Well, you already lumped the DL together. Split them into 4-3 and 3-4 if you want to get into the specifics. Can't get burnt if you have an elite safety over the top.

And Polamalu might not be the best cover guy, but he makes plays. I'd probably just give him an 8 though.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Factoring in everything, including age, I am going to go with JJ Watt.

I love a good attacking 34 for my front and I think he will be the dominant DE in that scheme for the next few years.

He is just a beast against both run and pass. It does all start up front though. Revis would be nice but there are other ways to exploit defenses even if they take away the best WR. Watt impacts every single play
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Well, you already lumped the DL together. Split them into 4-3 and 3-4 if you want to get into the specifics. Can't get burnt if you have an elite safety over the top.

And Polamalu might not be the best cover guy, but he makes plays. I'd probably just give him an 8 though.
I'd give Olivia Wilde an 8 if you catch my drift.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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I'd give Olivia Wilde an 8 if you catch my drift.
I feel violated.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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I feel violated.
I'd like to violate Olivia Wilde, if I am not being too subtle
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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In terms of this discussion, people are overrating defensive linemen and middle linebackers.

You get to pick one defender to build around. You need to maximize the value of that choice. Itís clear that Darrelle Revis is the best cornerback in the NFL. Heís on a tier of his own and heís impossible to contain. Thereís nothing an offense can do to limit his impact on them. Heís going to erase their most valuable target and divert offenses to their lesser options. Which, given what Revis does for defenses, those lesser options can even face upgraded coverage looks. Itís not like choosing Revis means the opposite corner has to be complete garbage and stuck in zero-coverage all the time. He doesnít have to be another All-Pro because heís going to be well-supported from the safeties within the scheme. And Revis can bolster the pass rush, too. Rushing the passer is often a numbers game. Revis frees up numbers for defensive coordinators.

I get that Ngata is a scheme-diverse beast, but heís just not as rare or valuable as Revis. Thereís a greater wealth of pass-rushing talent in the NFL and the pipeline is richer, too. Outside of Ngata, I can get difference-makers in the trenches. Jason Pierre-Paul, J.J. Watt, Calais Campbell, Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Ndamukong Suh, Mario Williams, Clay Matthews, DeMarcus Ware, Tamba Hali, Jared Allen, Trent Cole, Justin Tuck, Kyle Williams, Vince Wilfork, Julius Peppers, Richard Seymour, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Chris Long, and Geno Atkins. I just listed about two dozen pass-rushers (at different points in their careers) that can generate pressure for a defense and Iím sure that I even forgot some. You wonít find two dozen comparable corners to Revis.

As for Willis, itís the same principle. He might be the best out there, but thereís still NaVorro Bowman, DíQwell Jackson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, London Fletcher, Sean Lee, Jon Beason, Brian Cushing, Derrick Johnson, and Lawrence Timmons. Thatís ten middle linebackers that are capable of being comparable in doing what Willis does right there. Again, some of them arenít in their prime, but itís still indicative of ease of unearthing one in the future.

Who has done what Revis has done? Champ Bailey, Nnamdi Asomugha, and maybe Charles Woodson. Thatís four. Total.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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My posts are up here, not down there.

Now I know how big-breasted women feel..

@Cudders: Urlacher and Timmons cannot do what Willis does. Not anymore at least. And Wilfork is more of a 2-gapper than a pass rusher.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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My posts are up here, not down there.

Now I know how big-breasted women feel..
That's a feeling Wilde will never know.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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In terms of this discussion, people are overrating defensive linemen and middle linebackers.

You get to pick one defender to build around. You need to maximize the value of that choice. Itís clear that Darrelle Revis is the best cornerback in the NFL. Heís on a tier of his own and heís impossible to contain. Thereís nothing an offense can do to limit his impact on them. Heís going to erase their most valuable target and divert offenses to their lesser options. Which, given what Revis does for defenses, those lesser options can even face upgraded coverage looks. Itís not like choosing Revis means the opposite corner has to be complete garbage and stuck in zero-coverage all the time. He doesnít have to be another All-Pro because heís going to be well-supported from the safeties within the scheme. And Revis can bolster the pass rush, too. Rushing the passer is often a numbers game. Revis frees up numbers for defensive coordinators.

I get that Ngata is a scheme-diverse beast, but heís just not as rare or valuable as Revis. Thereís a greater wealth of pass-rushing talent in the NFL and the pipeline is richer, too. Outside of Ngata, I can get difference-makers in the trenches. Jason Pierre-Paul, J.J. Watt, Calais Campbell, Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Ndamukong Suh, Mario Williams, Clay Matthews, DeMarcus Ware, Tamba Hali, Jared Allen, Trent Cole, Justin Tuck, Kyle Williams, Vince Wilfork, Julius Peppers, Richard Seymour, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Chris Long, and Geno Atkins. I just listed about two dozen pass-rushers (at different points in their careers) that can generate pressure for a defense and Iím sure that I even forgot some. You wonít find two dozen comparable corners to Revis.

As for Willis, itís the same principle. He might be the best out there, but thereís still NaVorro Bowman, DíQwell Jackson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, London Fletcher, Sean Lee, Jon Beason, Brian Cushing, Derrick Johnson, and Lawrence Timmons. Thatís ten middle linebackers that are capable of being comparable in doing what Willis does right there. Again, some of them arenít in their prime, but itís still indicative of ease of unearthing one in the future.

Who has done what Revis has done? Champ Bailey, Nnamdi Asomugha, and maybe Charles Woodson. Thatís four. Total.

Lengthier version of the exact same thing i said a few posts above. +rep
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
In terms of this discussion, people are overrating defensive linemen and middle linebackers.

You get to pick one defender to build around. You need to maximize the value of that choice. It’s clear that Darrelle Revis is the best cornerback in the NFL. He’s on a tier of his own and he’s impossible to contain. There’s nothing an offense can do to limit his impact on them. He’s going to erase their most valuable target and divert offenses to their lesser options. Which, given what Revis does for defenses, those lesser options can even face upgraded coverage looks. It’s not like choosing Revis means the opposite corner has to be complete garbage and stuck in zero-coverage all the time. He doesn’t have to be another All-Pro because he’s going to be well-supported from the safeties within the scheme. And Revis can bolster the pass rush, too. Rushing the passer is often a numbers game. Revis frees up numbers for defensive coordinators.

I get that Ngata is a scheme-diverse beast, but he’s just not as rare or valuable as Revis. There’s a greater wealth of pass-rushing talent in the NFL and the pipeline is richer, too. Outside of Ngata, I can get difference-makers in the trenches. Jason Pierre-Paul, J.J. Watt, Calais Campbell, Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Ndamukong Suh, Mario Williams, Clay Matthews, DeMarcus Ware, Tamba Hali, Jared Allen, Trent Cole, Justin Tuck, Kyle Williams, Vince Wilfork, Julius Peppers, Richard Seymour, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Chris Long, and Geno Atkins. I just listed about two dozen pass-rushers (at different points in their careers) that can generate pressure for a defense and I’m sure that I even forgot some. You won’t find two dozen comparable corners to Revis.

As for Willis, it’s the same principle. He might be the best out there, but there’s still NaVorro Bowman, D’Qwell Jackson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, London Fletcher, Sean Lee, Jon Beason, Brian Cushing, Derrick Johnson, and Lawrence Timmons. That’s ten middle linebackers that are capable of being comparable in doing what Willis does right there. Again, some of them aren’t in their prime, but it’s still indicative of ease of unearthing one in the future.

Who has done what Revis has done? Champ Bailey, Nnamdi Asomugha, and maybe Charles Woodson. That’s four. Total.
You make solid points. But my thing is a good front is the equivalent of Revis. I can avoid Revis and still beat you. This has been proven. He may affect where a QB goes with the ball but he may go a game without seeing a single pass go his way and STILL be on the losing end. But you have to block Justin Smith. And even when you block him with two guys, he will still be in the backfield, and he will still be disruptive. Now that you dedicated two O-Lineman to block him, that frees up my other guys to go one-on-one and beat their man.
So no, my back-end may not have a Revis, but my guys are making more plays on the ball, as they're being thrown under duress, allowing them to affect the game more than Revis Island, who hasn't seen a pass all day. That in itself is good, don't get me wrong. But how many ints can you get when the ball isn't coming your way? I need some splash plays out my this defense too, and I'm more liable to get some FF's and batted balls upfront. You give me a front that overwhelms a O-Line and watch me affect the run(which Revis doesn't) and the pass. Most importantly I affect play-calling and affect your protection up front. Revis may affect where the ball may go pre-snap in a passing situation but what if its 3rd and 1? 4th and 1? He doesn't affect whether your max-protect on 3rd downs or your chipping my ends because your tackles can't handle them one-on-one.....because Justin Smith is occupying two guys every single pass down. Your absolutely right, Revis allows you A TON of flexibility on the back-end to really confuse a offense and allow you to just defend certain areas of the field. But I think its easier the gameplan around a CB as a OC. You can't gameplan around a good front. You just can't. Eventually, you have to line up across from me and win more times than I do.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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It's a no brainer for me. I'm taking Revis.

As great as the other pass rushers on this list are, or DTs, there are other guys out there that can give you 90% of what they give you.

But no one can sniff Revis. No DB comes close. What he allows you to do schematically is priceless.

When his career is over, he'll go down as at worst, the 2nd best CB to ever play the game. He's that good. And if he continues to dominate the game the way he is right now for the remainder of his career, I can make a strong argument that if he can do that he should be considered better than Deion Sanders.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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You make solid points. But my thing is a good front is the equivalent of Revis. I can avoid Revis and still beat you. This has been proven. He may affect where a QB goes with the ball but he may go a game without seeing a single pass go his way and STILL be on the losing end. But you have to block Justin Smith. And even when you block him with two guys, he will still be in the backfield, and he will still be disruptive. Now that you dedicated two O-Lineman to block him, that frees up my other guys to go one-on-one and beat their man.
So no, my back-end may not have a Revis, but my guys are making more plays on the ball, as they're being thrown under duress, allowing them to affect the game more than Revis Island, who hasn't seen a pass all day. That in itself is good, don't get me wrong. But how many ints can you get when the ball isn't coming your way? I need some splash plays out my this defense too, and I'm more liable to get some FF's and batted balls upfront. You give me a front that overwhelms a O-Line and watch me affect the run(which Revis doesn't) and the pass. Most importantly I affect play-calling and affect your protection up front. Revis may affect where the ball may go pre-snap in a passing situation but what if its 3rd and 1? 4th and 1? He doesn't affect whether your max-protect on 3rd downs or your chipping my ends because your tackles can't handle them one-on-one.....because Justin Smith is occupying two guys every single pass down. Your absolutely right, Revis allows you A TON of flexibility on the back-end to really confuse a offense and allow you to just defend certain areas of the field. But I think its easier the gameplan around a CB as a OC. You can't gameplan around a good front. You just can't. Eventually, you have to line up across from me and win more times than I do.
This is sort of where I am at.

I'd take building with a Ngata or JPP(Who I was quite wrong about, let me devour some crow) before I can take a corner. Rarity doesn't mean as much to me.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
In terms of this discussion, people are overrating defensive linemen and middle linebackers.

You get to pick one defender to build around. You need to maximize the value of that choice. Itís clear that Darrelle Revis is the best cornerback in the NFL. Heís on a tier of his own and heís impossible to contain. Thereís nothing an offense can do to limit his impact on them. Heís going to erase their most valuable target and divert offenses to their lesser options. Which, given what Revis does for defenses, those lesser options can even face upgraded coverage looks. Itís not like choosing Revis means the opposite corner has to be complete garbage and stuck in zero-coverage all the time. He doesnít have to be another All-Pro because heís going to be well-supported from the safeties within the scheme. And Revis can bolster the pass rush, too. Rushing the passer is often a numbers game. Revis frees up numbers for defensive coordinators.

I get that Ngata is a scheme-diverse beast, but heís just not as rare or valuable as Revis. Thereís a greater wealth of pass-rushing talent in the NFL and the pipeline is richer, too. Outside of Ngata, I can get difference-makers in the trenches. Jason Pierre-Paul, J.J. Watt, Calais Campbell, Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Ndamukong Suh, Mario Williams, Clay Matthews, DeMarcus Ware, Tamba Hali, Jared Allen, Trent Cole, Justin Tuck, Kyle Williams, Vince Wilfork, Julius Peppers, Richard Seymour, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Chris Long, and Geno Atkins. I just listed about two dozen pass-rushers (at different points in their careers) that can generate pressure for a defense and Iím sure that I even forgot some. You wonít find two dozen comparable corners to Revis.

As for Willis, itís the same principle. He might be the best out there, but thereís still NaVorro Bowman, DíQwell Jackson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, London Fletcher, Sean Lee, Jon Beason, Brian Cushing, Derrick Johnson, and Lawrence Timmons. Thatís ten middle linebackers that are capable of being comparable in doing what Willis does right there. Again, some of them arenít in their prime, but itís still indicative of ease of unearthing one in the future.

Who has done what Revis has done? Champ Bailey, Nnamdi Asomugha, and maybe Charles Woodson. Thatís four. Total.
This is why I love you <3

To piggy back on this, just watch a Jets game and see their scheme. It's simple. They basically dare you to throw at Revis. That's why Rex's scheme looks so good.

He overload blitzes on Revis's side and forces Revis's WR to be the hot WR, which puts the qb in a pickle, bc he has to throw to his hot on a blitz, but he can't bc Revis is covering him.

So not only is he lights out, but the scheme dares teams to throw at him, and they still can't.

And when they're not overload blitzing and forcing you to throw at him, they cook up different blitzes that force you to throw into coverage bc of what Revis allows them to do.

It's such a sick weapon to have as a DC.

It's really a no brainer. Take Revis.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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The only DB I would consider as a building block is Ed Reed. And that's because in his prime, he was a extra LB, a nickelback, SS, and FS, all in the same set of downs. He could do a myriad of things for a DC, in both the run and the pass. And he was a very underatted blitzer. Any guy who can guard deep space like he did as well as affect the box is essentially two players for the price of one.
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