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Old 09-24-2012, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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RG3 armed looked weak on that last throw of the game
Again in English please?
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:31 AM    (permalink
niel89
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Dalton doesn't get enough love in here.
You make a good point. He wasn't the best prospect (which really hurts his image on a draft site), is in a offense that fits him perfectly, and has a stud young wr; but this guy has already won a lot of games and has the best resume of these guys so far. Granted its still way way too early, but Dalton has already made the playoffs.

Long term he isn't at the top of my list probably, but the guy deserves some praise. Dalton had a great rookie year & is playing well this year too. He is underrated for sure.
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:37 AM    (permalink
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You make a good point. He wasn't the best prospect (which really hurts his image on a draft site), is in a offense that fits him perfectly, and has a stud young wr; but this guy has already won a lot of games and has the best resume of these guys so far. Granted its still way way too early, but Dalton has already made the playoffs.

Long term he isn't at the top of my list probably, but the guy deserves some praise. Dalton had a great rookie year & is playing well this year too. He is underrated for sure.
Most rushing yards by a rookie qb - 706 - Cam Newton
Most rushing touchdowns by a quarterback in a season - 14 - Cam Newton
Most passing yards by a rookie - 4051 - Cam Newton
Most passing yards in a game by a rookie - 432 - Cam Newton
Most passing yards in a debut by a rookie - 422 - Cam Newton
2011 AP Offensive Rookie of the Year - Cam Newton

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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Ponder is not getting nearly enough love.

In both weeks 1 and 2 he had very impressive games leading his team back in the 4th quarter to take it to overtime. This guy is clutch. He went into week 3 as the NFLs most accurate passer but those were against the jags and colts D so everyone expected him to flop against the 49ers and what does he do? He plays arguably his best game yet.

I don't understand the concerns with his physical tools. He has the arm strength to make all the throws and he is way faster and more athletic than he is given credit for, just watch his rushing touchdown against the 49ers. He looked great throwing on the run as well and added a dime to Rudolph in the back of the endzone while backpedaling.

The only knock on his play so far this season has been the lack of the deep completions. Yes it is a valid concern right now but the problem isnt that he cant make the throws, he can, he just doesn't have a deep threat at WR right now. Percy is best getting the ball in the open field and less of a deep threat and I don't think Rudolph has the speed to consistently get vertical. Jerome Simpson gets back from suspension this week so I'm going to hold my judgement on that until I see them play together for a couple games.

I think ponder is in the top 3/4 of this group when it's all said and done behind luck and newton.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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There were many fans who considered at least some of these QBs to be "reaches". Right now it looks to me like drafting a QB early is generally a good value in "today's NFL".
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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In terms of future value, my rankings are

1) Andrew Luck - He's just so good already. good arm, surprising mobility. Pocket presence is what stands out to me, though. He has impressed me so much with his ability to make that one step before throwing that opens up an easier lane. Not taking his age+potential into consideration, I think almost every team would start Luck over their current QB.

2) Cam Newton - Not sure if I've ever seen a QB with that much talent. He forces way too many throws still, but that should come w/ experience.

3) Robert Griffin III - I wish I could go 1A 1B and 1C with Luck/Newton/RG3.. unreal elusiveness and has really surprised me with his decision making so far. Thought he would try to force everything, but the game just looks like it comes so naturally to him

4) Andy Dalton - He just gets it. I don't know how else to put it.

5) Jake Locker - It's insane the amount of talent in this crop of young QB's. Locker has an absolute cannon and legit speed. He hasn't quite put it together yet, but he seems to really want to improve

6) Christian Ponder - He couldn't have impressed me more so far this year. I'm a little hesitant putting him above Locker/Dalton, who I also really like, but the strides he has made as a passer have me convinced that 4/5/6 on this list is just as interchangeable as 1/2/3. He has that natural ability to put the perfect amount of touch on his short/intermediate throws. The touchdown throw to Rudolph on 4th and goal yesterday was the tipping point for me. I'm really coming around on him, but we're only 3 weeks into the season. Talk to me again after the season's over.

7) Blaine Gabbert - I'm sorry, but I just don't see it with him. He just looks lost in the pocket when his primary receiver isn't wide open. I think he is headed down the career backup path. He has talent, and I guess there's a chance he can really turn it around, but the pro game seems to be overwhelming for him at times.

I'm going to revisit this post at the end of the year and re-rank again

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Old 09-24-2012, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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There were many fans who considered at least some of these QBs to be "reaches". Right now it looks to me like drafting a QB early is generally a good value in "today's NFL".
Agreed, the NFL is becoming more of a QB league everyday.

This thread represents the one thing wrong with draft-dedicated forums- people get too caught up in how good of prospects players were coming out and have a hard time letting go of a player's physical gifts and college resumes.

I know this makes me sound like a homer, but yall are sleeping on my boy Dalton HARD. Last year, with what everyone pretty much unanimously considered the worst team with the worst situation for a rookie QB- Andy threw 20 TDs and 13 picks in a playoff season. Cam was 21/17.

I'm not saying Andy had a better rookie season than Cam did (though its close), but he wasn't as far off as some of you seem to think- and he was arguably at least a better passer. Fast forward to this season and everybody is saying the same thing:

Andy Dalton is set for a sophomore slump. He has no targets outside of Green. Nobody is concerned about their running game so they can key in on AJ/Andy and the passing attack. Now D Coordinators have a year of film on him. He's already reached his ceiling, he just came out of the box more NFL ready than the others.

Now here we are 3 weeks in and even with all the success Andy had last year, he's skyrocketed in literally every significant QB stat.

2012 Passer Rating: 105.0
2011 Passer Rating: 80.4

2012 Comp %: 68.4
2011 Comp %: 58.1

2012 TD/INT ratio: 2:1
2011 TD/INT ratio: ~3:2

Oh, and the biggest knock on him last year? Yards per attempt.

2012 YPA: 9.1
2011 YPA: 6.6

In fact, he's second in the ENTIRE league in YPA after only Cam Newton (9.6 YPA). But Cam is doing it with 2 TDs to 5 INTs, a 78.3 Passer rating, and a lower completion percentage (63.9). As you work your way down the list of other sophomore QBs we have:

Jake Locker: 7.5 YPA, 2:1 TD:INT (same as Andy), 91.9 Passer Rating, 65.4 Comp %

Blaine Gabbert: 5.9 YPA, 4 TDs 0 INTS, 85.8 Passer Rating, 50.6 Comp %

And then theres the one guy arguably having as good a season as Dalton-

Christian Ponder: 7.4 YPA, 4TDs 0 INTs, 104.9 Passer Rating (a hair lower than Daltons), 70.1 Comp %

Andy also leads the league in passes of 40+ yards. And of the sophomore QBs is behind only Cam in passes of 20+ yards (Cam has 15, Dalton as 12).

And what do those top two sophomore performers (Ponder and Dalton) have in common? Both are 6'2 and can't throw 100 yards off their back foot.

And even with all the flack Andy gets for his "lack of arm strength," his only legitimate knock so far this year is a tendency to OVERTHROW his receivers on deep balls.

Oh, and of all those QBs, he's the only one with a career winning record and only Ponder has as many wins this season.

So.... yeah, enjoy your 6'5 statues with all the physical tools. I'll take the Red Rifle with his uncanny knowledge of the offense, unshakable demeanor/confidence, great ball location, and contagious work ethic.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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:wrong thread. LOcker ftw
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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I don't disagree that Dalton is good, but I think his stats this year so far have been partly because the calibre of defenses he has played. He torched a Joe Haden'less Browns D and a poor Redskins D. When he went against the tough Ravens D he struggled. I'm not saying he can't get it done against good defenses, but this I think I need more of a sample size this year before I go and call his play this year the Dalton we're always going to see. His position on my list (6th right behind Locker/Ponder) is more an indication of the young talent we have at QB now than me being low on Dalton.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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Again in English please?
His arm looked weak on the hail mary.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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I don't disagree that Dalton is good, but I think his stats this year so far have been partly because the calibre of defenses he has played. He torched a Joe Haden'less Browns D and a poor Redskins D. When he went against the tough Ravens D he struggled. I'm not saying he can't get it done against good defenses, but this I think I need more of a sample size this year before I go and call his play this year the Dalton we're always going to see. His position on my list (6th right behind Locker/Ponder) is more an indication of the young talent we have at QB now than me being low on Dalton.
To be fair he was playing from behind that entire game and he actually looked good until that INT at the end. Jermaine Gresham even came out and said he undercut the route on that play too. He had a few overthrows but I wasn't really discouraged by his play in that game against one of the best teams in the NFL.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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His arm looked weak on the hail mary.
Grif threw the ball from his own 30 yard line to the opposite 10 yard line.
Can't throw the ball in the endzone if your WRs can't even get there.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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Keep in mind dalton played what will probly end up bring the worst pass defense in nfl history. I wouldn't be surprised if the redskins gave up 5000 passing yards this year.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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I think the Bengals have their QB for the next 5-10 years.
Now the question is how good can the Bengals be with Dalton??

BTW I think some fans are getting way too gassed after Dalton shredded the Skins.
It's not like Sean Taylor and Laron Landry are patrolling the back end of our secondary anymore, and Carlos Rogers has been gone for two seasons.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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Keep in mind dalton played what will probly end up bring the worst pass defense in nfl history. I wouldn't be surprised if the redskins gave up 5000 passing yards this year.
Dalton played well all season expect for the 4 quarter of the Ravens game and it did not help that the Bengals were down 20 points at that point so the Ravens just pinned their ears back and went after him and blitzed the **** out of him since the Bengals had to throw every down at that point.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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I thought Dalton was more of a late 2nd/3rd round guy, but before the draft I called that he would be a great fit for Jay Gruden and the Bengals would grab him in the early second. I don't buy that the situation that he came into was that terrible.

I'm not immediately sold on Dalton for the next 8 years, but he has done everything right up to this point. He is clearly going to be their guy for at least the next 3 years, and the Bengals should feel very comfortable building a team around him.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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BTW I think some fans are getting way too gassed after Dalton shredded the Skins.
It's not like Sean Taylor and Laron Landry are patrolling the back end of our secondary anymore, and Carlos Rogers has been gone for two seasons.
The same thing could have been said for RG3 he has played the New Orleans who is #32 in total defense, Cincinnati who is #29 and St Louis is #19.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:30 AM    (permalink
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Bottom line, lets not get too high or low on a QB on a week to week basis. We seem to be doing that a lot lately with the young guys.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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The same thing could have been said for RG3 he has played the New Orleans who is #32 in total defense, Cincinnati who is #29 and St Louis is #19.
I'm pretty surprised St. Louis is ranked 19th. They have one of the better pass defenses in the league at this point.

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Bottom line, lets not get too high or low on a QB on a week to week basis. We seem to be doing that a lot lately with the young guys.
Agreed. People love to jump all over the place after a game or two. You gotta think big picture about these guys.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:02 AM    (permalink
niel89
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Bottom line, lets not get too high or low on a QB on a week to week basis. We seem to be doing that a lot lately with the young guys.
This is what we honestly should be doing. Most of these guys don't even have a full season of starts under there belt yet, let alone 4 starts. We don't even have answers on the guys in the first young guns thread. We claimed Gabbert dead on arrival too soon.

I suppose its fun to talk about and debate though. Great to see updates on these guys and disagreeing, but we are years away from any real conclusions.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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BTW I think some fans are getting way too gassed after Dalton shredded the Skins.
It's not like Sean Taylor and Laron Landry are patrolling the back end of our secondary anymore, and Carlos Rogers has been gone for two seasons.
Since Dalton was drafted, I haven't really seen any Bengals fan talk up Dalton outside of our team forum. We're not acting like Buccaneers fans in '09.

Now that this thread has been created, we're just defending him from being near last on everyone's list despite doing everything right to this point. I know he doesn't have the cannon arm or the superman mobility, but he still is getting the job done (and some).

So far, Dalton has yet to be ranked above Ponder on a list. Which is fine as everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. But if we're playing the "wait and see" card, Dalton has technically been doing it longer and his stats are just as good if not better.

I think we're allowed to stand up for him is my point, even if he did just beat a bad defense :P
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Of the guys in the title I think it'll end up
Luck
Newton
Locker
RG3

Dalton
Ponder
Gabbert
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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I don't know why everyone is so high on Jake Locker. I get that he's very mobile, throws a pretty spiral and has a cannon for an arm but I still think he's wildly inaccurate. Granted, I haven't seen much of him but I remember 2 plays including the Nate Washington TD this past weekend where it was a horrible placement the receiver just made an amazing play.

the term 'circus catch' usually means inaccurate pass compensated by good play by the wr.

I think Locker will end up like Kyle Boller.

But meh, I could be wrong.
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:48 PM    (permalink
abaddon41_80
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I am not high on Locker. Of the choices give me,

Luck
Ponder
RGIII

Dalton
Locker
Newton
Gabbert
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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I think if will end up

Ponder


Luck
RG3
Newton
Dalton
Locker
Gabbert
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