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Old 09-30-2012, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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I think it's time to cut our losses with Freeman. Guy couldn't hit the red side of a barn in the first half against probably the worst defense in the league. Decent 2nd half performance, but as he's driving basically against a better team, throws that INT deep in enemy territory that almost causes us the game.

He has weapons. He just doesn't see the field well, isn't accurate, and is a horrid decision Maker.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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There must be a better name than "suck for geno smith".
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Suck for Eugeen?
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Do you guys actually have faith in the Buccaneers to develop a quarterback?

Not one single one we've ever drafted has worked out for this franchise.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Do you guys actually have faith in the Buccaneers to develop a quarterback?

Not one single one we've ever drafted has worked out for this franchise.
Honestly, who have we actually drafted highly with talent to develop?

We took a huge risk on Freeman coming out. We never really took a shot on a top talent.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, who have we actually drafted highly with talent to develop?

We took a huge risk on Freeman coming out. We never really took a shot on a top talent.
Doug Williams - 1st round - 17th overall pick
Vinny Testeverde - 1st round - 1st overall pick
Trent Dilfer - 1st round - 6th overall pick

You can't tell me those guys didn't have talent. If so, what do you suppose made them 1st rounders?

You've also got Shaun King, who was promising enough to warrant a 2nd round selection.
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Old 10-01-2012, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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I think it's more on talent evaluators then coaching. Shaun king was a question mark same as freeman was.

I'll give you dilfer but we currently have Eli manning and Peyton mannings qb coaches. We have 2 well known and respected qb coaches on our staff. So it's on freeman not coaches this situation.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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I think we have to still give Free some time here guys. New HC, New OC, New TE, New RB and New WR. That's a lot going on! He's had some nice moments and some dumb ones. The one thing I don't understand is two years ago he would attack the line and run for first downs or make broken plays a la Big Ben. Last year and this year he falls back and goes side to side and I don't know why.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Doug Williams - 1st round - 17th overall pick
Vinny Testeverde - 1st round - 1st overall pick
Trent Dilfer - 1st round - 6th overall pick

You can't tell me those guys didn't have talent. If so, what do you suppose made them 1st rounders?

You've also got Shaun King, who was promising enough to warrant a 2nd round selection.
And don't forget investments in young QBs like Jack Thompson, Steve Young, Chris Chandler, and Craig Erickson. All of these guys came at a price and were highly regarded... for a minute or two. (actually, we got a lot more for Erickson than we gave up).

I think it would be stupid to pull the plug on a 24 year old QB with as much potential, promise, and work ethic as Freeman. You have to give him time to learn the new system and develop. He is light years ahead of where Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, and Eli Manning were at the same age. Of course most of the guys took til 25 just to establish themselves as good QBs in the NFL... Freeman is 24 and his body of work blows away all 4 of those guys numbers pre-25.

I say give Freeman at least until the end of the year to get himself on a roll. If he totally flops then maybe cut loose, if he does okay, give him an entire offseason in the new system and give him next season too. I'm not convinced any of the next crop of college QBs is anything special anyway.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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Better name would be "suck for smith" I like the alliteration better. But in all honesty Freeman isn't THAT bad. He's right around middle of the road. I think time is what Freeman needs now. In a year or two he'll be much better once he gets acquainted with the offense.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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I think we can go ahead and close this thread after the way Freeman has played in the past 4 games.
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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Better name would be "suck for smith" I like the alliteration better. But in all honesty Freeman isn't THAT bad. He's right around middle of the road. I think time is what Freeman needs now. In a year or two he'll be much better once he gets acquainted with the offense.
Middle of the pack? He might be top 10. Not that that is saying a ton, but considering his stats despite having to acclimate himself to a new offense, it is quite possible he will be among the leaders this season in rating, yards, touchdowns, etc.

No, he will probably never be a leader in completion percentage, but he is a lot like Eli. Usually clutch when it counts, perhaps mediocre for 3 quarters. I think and hope he is finally getting it.
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Middle of the pack? He might be top 10. Not that that is saying a ton, but considering his stats despite having to acclimate himself to a new offense, it is quite possible he will be among the leaders this season in rating, yards, touchdowns, etc.

No, he will probably never be a leader in completion percentage, but he is a lot like Eli. Usually clutch when it counts, perhaps mediocre for 3 quarters. I think and hope he is finally getting it.
I'm pretty sure I can name 15 that are better than or equal to Freeman. They all might not be playing like it right now (read the last three or four games) but that is middle of the pack. As I said give it a year or so and you could see him in the top 10 conversation.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Middle of the pack? He might be top 10. Not that that is saying a ton, but considering his stats despite having to acclimate himself to a new offense, it is quite possible he will be among the leaders this season in rating, yards, touchdowns, etc.

No, he will probably never be a leader in completion percentage, but he is a lot like Eli. Usually clutch when it counts, perhaps mediocre for 3 quarters. I think and hope he is finally getting it.
Brash I've been impressed with Freeman's performance of late but no way has he earned top 10 status. Not yet. 3 great games yes but he needs to continue this throughout the year and keep us close in the playoff hunt.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:03 AM    (permalink
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Honestly, I view the QBs outside of the top 6 or so as middle of the pack... and I feel Freeman is as good as any of the remaining guys you can throw in the top 10.

Seriously, let's look:

1-6)
Brady, Brees, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Roethlisberger, Rodgers
No particular order-all six have rings, all six have carried their teams over tough teams

7) Matt Ryan

8-18) Romo, Griffin, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, Cutler, Flacco, Schaub, Dalton, Stafford, Freeman- in no particular order

Romo usually has great numbers, not this year, but is the opposite of clutch when it counts-I can see where Freeman could be considered an upgrade over Romo, just ask a Dallas fan, they'd be ready to welcome Gary Hogeboom back.

Griffin has great numbers and he is carrying that team, does that make him a great QB or have defense yet to completely figure him out? Let's face it, he may improve over time, but his passing numbers won't. If his numbers improved he'd basically break the league. Is he better than Freeman? Maybe, but he's a rookie and you can't put too much stock in a rookie QBs numbers, either good or bad.

Rivers-an interesting comparison to Freeman. What kind of season would Freeman have if he had no weapons, what kind of season would Rivers have? We saw Freeman last season for the Bucs, now we're seeing the Chargers this season for Rivers. The argument could be made here for Freeman over Rivers

Newton-true colors showing? A bit, yeah. Defenses have figured him out, he's trying to be a QB so he can save himself from damage and he's struggling. No doubt who is having the better season.

Palmer hasn't been close to elite in years, and really he's only been good the past few games.

Jay Cutler is Jay Cutler-need I say more?

Joe Flacco is probably the best of the 8-18 bunch. Decent career numbers, but a gamer type QB that has led his team... the jury is still out, though. He has the weapons, but no longer has the defense. If the Ravens are to do anything this season, even make the playoffs, Flacco will have to carry them.

Schaub-A good QB with a great running game, great defense, and one great receiver. He plays within himself, but has never really stepped it up and won it for his team in big games.

Andy Dalton-I'm embarrassed to put him on my list. The red-headed Brian Griese has the weapons, has a good OC, but he will always be limited by average physical ability.

Stafford-once he was finally able to stay healthy he threw for 5000 yards... this season he's terrible. He's got one of the best WRs in NFL history, he's tough and gritty but I don't think he's better than Freeman. You switch Freeman and Stafford teams in their careers and see who would be better... Freeman by a long shot. Freeman's durable. Stafford has the best WR in the NFL since Rice was in his prime. Right now, Freeman looks like he's clearly the best QB from the 2009 draft class.

Freeman, Stafford, John Parker Wilson or Stephen McGee, then Sanchez, right? That's how most Jets fans probably have it.

Michael Vick once deserved consideration of the top 10, but right now he needs to concern himself with being the #1 for the Eagles.

Then there's Freeman. are you telling me it is out of the realm of possiblity that Freeman is better than any/all of the 10 other QBs I reviewed? Let's face it, the QBs that round out the top 10 at numbers 8, 9, 10 are going to be pretty mediocre and considering Freeman's rating is 8th best in the league, it is a fair assessment to think that he belongs there.

And before any naysayers start pointing to the weak Buc defenses of the past 3 weeks to prove any point-every QB gets to play against bad defenses during the season. Freeman just so happened to get his bad defenses (Minnesota's really wasn't a bad D) three in a row... I think Freeman's recent revival is a culmination of factors, bad D, him improving, the OC calling better plays, and perhaps the most important factor, Freeman and his offensive teammates finally learning the offense. He may continue improving, his performance may be an aberration as defenses start to defend the deep ball better and force Freeman to beat them underneath... if that is the case one would hope the Bucs OC will adjust accordingly with his play calls and Freeman takes what is given to him.

Am I a believer in Freeman? Not yet, I am a Freeman optimist though. And my frustration with him prior to the bye week had me doubting my own wisdom of allowing QBs at least 5 weeks to get acclimated to a new offense.

So is the question answered? Does Freeman belong in the top 10? I believe due to his body of work this season and the subpar performances of the aforementioned QBs... he does.

8-10) Schaub, Griffin, Freeman--- so does that mean I take Freeman over Romo, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, Cutler, Flacco, Dalton, Stafford? Yes, something is off about Romo and Rivers, they've lost their mojos perhaps, Newton's mojo is long gone, Palmer lost his in a playoff game against the Steelers many many years ago (apparently mojos are located in the knee), Cutler could lead the league in passing and nobody would want him due to his bad juju, Dalton never had a mojo, which leaves Flacco and Stafford as Freeman's main competition to be in the top 10. Flacco is the closest to Freeman but unlike Freeman, Flacco has been playing with a top defense all these years, and the actual Ray Rice, along with experience and speed to throw to (Boldin and Torry Smith) and his rating is still 10 points less.. and Stafford was among the best QBs last season, and among the biggest head scratchers this season.

I put Freeman in the top 10. Schaub, Griffin, Freeman are my 8-10 and I could put Freeman in any of those spots and be comfortable... because let's face it, everything outside of the top 7 is mediocre and Freeman is among the best of a mediocre bunch.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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Brasho,

I think at seasons end, with the consistant playing level he's been at recently, yes you can put him in top 10. But as you said, after 2011 and the first 4 weeks, many had doubts. He's been hot these last 3 weeks with 9 TDs 1 INt and 1000+ yards.

But just because he's on this hot streak does not suddenly vault a guy who was horrid the first 4 games to a top 10 QB. He doesn't really have the body of work in my opinion. He had a great 2010 season, horrible 2011 season, and he's starting to come along in 2012 as the season continues.

I am also a huge fan of Freeman. I liked him since his rookie year and liked him as a prospect. I think he's got a higher ceiling and yes you can put him above Stafford in a lot of fixes of the game. But right now, no I don't think he is a top 10 qb. He has had 0 playoff experience and I think that bolds into that when deciding a top 10 QB. I think he gets into that conversation talk a lot more as the season progresses but you still have to figure in that Freeman still needs to prove the worth of a top 10 QB. He needs to eliminate those bad passes, improve his short to intermediate throws/accuracy, and limit the staring down his first reads. He came out of the BYE a different QB and quite frankly, really surprised me. I'm happy he's gotten it together, but right now here is where I have him:

1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Eli Mannig
4. Peyton Manning (I know crazy right, Eli better at thios point in career)
5. Brees
6. Roethlisbuerger
7. Ryan
8. Cutler (Cutler is erratic, but he's been very good for Chicago in the past 2 years and you saw how bad the bears went from the hottest team in the NFL with him last year, to very bad without him when he was lost for the year)
9. Matt Schaub: Doesn't get enough credit still. He's put up more consistant numbers thant Freeman
10. Flacco: He's inconsistant, but when it comes to crunch time and playoff time, he's money.
11. Phillip Rivers: He's been up and down this year, but the talent around him is dwindling. Gates is up there in age, poor o-line play, no targets on the outside and a coaching staff/front office that has made terrible team decisions. Technically, I put him in Freeman's shoes last year where everything was falling apart. Frankly, I think he's the pure reason they have 4 wins.
12. Robert GriffinIII: I normally don't rate rookies, but right now, he's on a ridiculous level. He outplayed Freeman week 4, so I can't really say he's playing better right now than RG III.
13. Tony Romo: Yeah' I'll get flack for this, but Romo has been as good and as bad as Freeman this year. Romo has been playing awful, but some of it is due to that moron Dez Bryant. I mean, you can clearly see some of his TOs are throws right to the defense as Bryant runs a different route. I think by years end, Freeman can overtake Romo, but that matchup earlier in the year, where Free throws 110 yards on 10/35?

14. Josh Freeman

That's where I currently have him ranked, but he can vault into the top 10 consideration with a good stretch in the final 9 games.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:59 AM    (permalink
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You can't argue numbers AGAINST Freeman right now. He's the 8th rated QB in the NFL, on pace to throw for 4000 and 32 TDs vs 10 ints. There's not a GM or HC in the NFL that would take Cutler over Freeman. Griffin is fading fast as defenses have finally figured out how to slow him down. Yes, Rivers is missing weapons... kind of the way Freeman has NEVER had weapons until this season. He's top 10. Put Schaub and Flacco in there if you want after Ryan, but, again, you want to talk weapons, Schaub's consistently had weapons, the best weapons in the league in Foster and Johnson as well as a top defense and frequently fails to stay healthy. The jury is out on Flacco, his numbers pale in comparison to Freeman but soon he will have to start winning games with his arm.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:33 AM    (permalink
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Like I said brasho Freeman I think can be top 10 and probably will be but I need to see the rest of the season and continue to be consistant.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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Consistency? Check out his last f our games despite playing in a brand new offense. Besides that, you want playoffs? Matt Schaub has yet to play in the playoffs plus he's had awesome weapons, the same offensive coordinator, and has been hurt frequently. Romo? Ouch. Griffin is in a nosedive as teams have figured him out to an extent. Rivers has had terrible games as well. At least Freeman has the valid excuse of playing in a brand new offense and being handcuffed (at the time) with an ultraconservative game planning. Opinions are opinions... you can ask for consistency, you can ask for whatever you want, but my opinion differs from your regardless and I don't really need to convince you of anything. The Bucs and the Buc coaches are convinced and that's enough for me.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:53 AM    (permalink
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Consistency? Check out his last f our games despite playing in a brand new offense. Besides that, you want playoffs? Matt Schaub has yet to play in the playoffs plus he's had awesome weapons, the same offensive coordinator, and has been hurt frequently. Romo? Ouch. Griffin is in a nosedive as teams have figured him out to an extent. Rivers has had terrible games as well. At least Freeman has the valid excuse of playing in a brand new offense and being handcuffed (at the time) with an ultraconservative game planning. Opinions are opinions... you can ask for consistency, you can ask for whatever you want, but my opinion differs from your regardless and I don't really need to convince you of anything. The Bucs and the Buc coaches are convinced and that's enough for me.
Brasho you cannot call a qb consistant based on 4 games. Perhaps lets read his numbers the first 4 games? He also played awful to follow up a 2010 season where many called him a top 10 qb.

Look I'm not hating on freeman I'm basing this on his success I can't honestly, looking outside the box, put him in the elite YET status after 4 great games. There is 8 games left and he needs to keep this rolling and still needs improvement. I like Freeeman and love his potential and his ceiling bc it's extremely high but let's see how he faces against some elite teams where he's struggled most of his career.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:34 AM    (permalink
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Brasho you cannot call a qb consistant based on 4 games. Perhaps lets read his numbers the first 4 games? He also played awful to follow up a 2010 season where many called him a top 10 qb.

Look I'm not hating on freeman I'm basing this on his success I can't honestly, looking outside the box, put him in the elite YET status after 4 great games. There is 8 games left and he needs to keep this rolling and still needs improvement. I like Freeeman and love his potential and his ceiling bc it's extremely high but let's see how he faces against some elite teams where he's struggled most of his career.
I would never call anybody "consistant"... consistent maybe. As I have said before, new offense. It takes a minimum of 5 games for a QB and offense to grasp a brand new offense. I've come to this conclusion through years and years of astute observation.

You're not hating on Josh Freeman? Have you read any of your posts from the beginning of the thread? Have you read the title of your thread?

Have you ever thought that just maybe THIS is the real Freeman and that 2011 and not 2010 was the aberration? Considering he had only one truly bad game (from a rating standpoint) this season in the first four games (under 75 rating) and had seven bad games in 2011 while having six good games (ratings 90 or over) in the same year... isn't it entirely possible that the 23 (at the time) year old QB was still a pretty good QB that was simply a vicitim of a terrible offensive coordinator (that he made look better than he really was in 2010) a team that quit, a serious lack of offensive weapons, and an offense that was forced into being one dimensional due to the defense being historically bad? Even in Freeman's excellent 2010 season he only had eight games were he had a rating of 90 or more though he only had a rating of less than 75 four times.

As for consistency week to week, we are only going by this season... and no QB can be great every week but one thing that Freeman has done is post four straight games with over 100 rating, that despite the past two games not really playing lights out in the passing attack due to teams playing so much cover 2. Freeman has been taking what has been there for the past two weeks

And considering we are talking about the best QBs for this season... last season doesn't really come into play. Super Bowl wins, yes. Playoff wins, yes. But playing well is the ultimate indicator, otherwise Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana would always be at the top of the list no matter how old they were.

But you want consistency? Okay, Freeman has had four straight games with over 100 rating. That is the second longest current streak in the NFL. That means that over the past four games he's been more consistent than Brady, than Rodgers, Brees, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan (he managed a whopping 59 against the Raiders), your beloved Jay Cutler has only two games all year with a rating over 100, Schaub, Griffin, Rivers, Flacco, and Romo. Yes, the only QB that has had more consecutive games with ratings 100 or more is Peyton Manning, who has a streak of FIVE.

But as far as consistency is concerned, who are you to judge consistency? You started the Suck for Geno thread, which was ridiculous in its own right, and stated
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I think it's time to cut our losses with Freeman. Guy couldn't hit the red side of a barn in the first half against probably the worst defense in the league. Decent 2nd half performance, but as he's driving basically against a better team, throws that INT deep in enemy territory that almost causes us the game. He has weapons. He just doesn't see the field well, isn't accurate, and is a horrid decision Maker.
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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Man I think any fan after watching him the first 4 games thought the exact thing. He looked lost out there and continued to state down his first read. Something clicked and now he's on fire.

Listen no I'm not hating o freeman. I loved the kid coming out when many disliked the pick. I'm glad he'a playing at a high level right now.


This original discussion brasho is you think he's a top 10 qb right now. I still need to see more. Sorry I don't agree. I just can't put him over qb s who have established themselves in either big games or the playoffs. I have yet to see josh play at a high level against an elite team. Now do I think he can ? Yes. He's got the potential to be a top 5 qb in this league if he continues to progress but you'll ignore that I say this.

I think many we're out of line including myself ad urself brasho because he was erratic at the start of the season and many including myself all had the same views especially coming off that horrid 2011 season.

But he's got us at 4-4 and this is where he needs to continue to shine. Dallas, Washington and Minnesota are slipping and Seattle struggles away from there home stadium. Need to take advantage and beat Atlanta Atleast once to prove we can play with the best.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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Freeman is on the best streak of his career, and yet he is still not really reading defenses (rather just throwing it up and letting the considerable talent at WR go make plays), his footwork is heavy and clumsy, his internal clock is horrid, and he still throws behind his receivers on a consistent basis.


Even so, we won't be drafting a QB in 2013.


That's just what happens when a running game emerges, and you have reached critical mass at CB and rush DE's and NT.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Freeman is on the best streak of his career, and yet he is still not really reading defenses (rather just throwing it up and letting the considerable talent at WR go make plays), his footwork is heavy and clumsy, his internal clock is horrid, and he still throws behind his receivers on a consistent basis.


Even so, we won't be drafting a QB in 2013.


That's just what happens when a running game emerges, and you have reached critical mass at CB and rush DE's and NT.
You are wrong.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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You are wrong.

Fine.


I can't wait to hear this explanation.
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