Week 5 Discussion Thread. - Page 19

Rosebud · 10-05-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjsunstein

Everyone wants their guy to be elite, but the truth is there's nothing wrong with beng really good. Elite is a term very often abused on this forum. Eli is an elite QB, Chris Clemoms is an elite 4-3 DE, I'm sure I'm missing a lot more but these two have stuck out to me the last two weeks. I would put Eli top 5, and have hime as very good, maybe even great, but elite is uch a strong word especially in the world of sports.

There's a clear separation between Eli and guys like Rivers, Romo, Cutler, Ryan and Schaub. Those guys are very good. Eli's elite, he may not be at the top of the elite tier, as I'd put him behind Brady for sure, but he's in a tier above the "just very good" guys.

thenewfeature06 · 10-05-2012, 05:46 PM

I think though Brees hasn't won a game yet he is still elite... come on now.

SuperPacker · 10-05-2012, 05:47 PM

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elite

Quote:

b. The best or most skilled members of a group

Eli is not elite...

Raiderz4Life · 10-05-2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenewfeature06

I think though Brees hasn't won a game yet he is still elite... come on now.

That's not completely on him his defense sucks balls.

I would also be hard-pressed to put him there. He's with Eli in that, great but not quite elite, tier.

njx9 · 10-05-2012, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Scoring wise, I think weve shifted to adapt to how many points we can put up on the board and making teams one dimensional early on. I guess I just don't see the point now in throwing short passes with all the weapons we have now. Daniel graham, steve givens, brown, david patten, all did great things for us but were extremely limited so it makes sense that the offense revolved around short passes with space to work with. None of those guys were going to burn anyone deep consistently. And maybe its because I'm a Pats fan, but I'm just as high on brady as I was when we were a dynasty. Idk I get what you mean, but I'm not sure if reverting back to that kind of attack would be as effective in the NFL today.

i just think this is bad strategy. because it only takes one team to stop you, and you lose, sometimes at extremely inopportune times. regardless, it's not like you still have the all-world receivers. and your team is actually built for that short game, while letting gronk and hernandez (in a week or two) stretch the field (now that brady can actually make those passes). but all of a sudden you have guys trying to work down the field, and outside of brandon i-can't-catch-it-if-it-hits-me-in-the-numbers lloyd, i don't buy that that's a great strategy with the team you have. meanwhile, i think you have a whole team of guys who can get the ball in space and pick up some yards after. and you have a qb who's amazing at playing that offense.

21ST · 10-05-2012, 05:56 PM

Interesting how only giants fans think Eli is elite..... I'm sleep tho

thenewfeature06 · 10-05-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raiderz4life

That's not completely on him his defense sucks balls.

I would also be hard-pressed to put him there. He's with Eli in that, great but not quite elite, tier.

That is my point.. his defense has been horrible..

What does Brees not do? is today the day he is no longer elite?

He has been elite for a good 3 years now hasn't he?

SuperPacker · 10-05-2012, 05:59 PM

i'd still say brees is elite. no one will agree, but i think winning has become overrated when evaluating QB's.

Auron · 10-05-2012, 06:09 PM

The only thing Brees didn't do in that game vs. Green Bay was catch his own passes, rush Aaron Rodgers, stop the run, and make 40 yard field goals.

I mean he was 35/54, for 446 yards, when we were absolutely dreadful running the ball, and converted multiple 3rd & long situations into tight coverages with pinpoint passes, and that was with dropped passes.

On the final drive before the missed field goal, on 3rd down he had the ball right into Sproles' hands and he dropped it. I think he's been the only reason the Saints have been competitive at all.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:11 PM

Gotta love it. I blame fantasy football for this.

bearsfan_51 · 10-05-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperPacker

i'd still say brees is elite. no one will agree, but i think winning has become overrated when evaluating QB's.

It's incredibly overrated. It always has been.

bearsfan_51 · 10-05-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Gotta love it. I blame fantasy football for this.

I hate fantasy football. I do like math and logic, however.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:13 PM

To me, the elite qbs in this league are currently Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Eli, and maybe Ben. Peyton could be still, I don't know yet.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:13 PM

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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

I hate fantasy football. I do like math and logic, however.

Except when math involves wins and losses. Then you don't like it.

bearsfan_51 · 10-05-2012, 06:14 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Except when math involves wins and losses. Then you don't like it.

False. W-L is useful for the evaluation of teams. It's far less useful when evaluating one of 53 players, even if it typically is the most important one.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:15 PM

I noticed the number crunchers on here are typically baseball fans too. But football and baseball are completely different sports.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

False. W-L is useful for the evaluation of teams. It's far less useful when evaluating one of 53 players, even if it typically is the most important one.

Yet individual stats are also heavily reliant on team play as well. So how do you separate the 2? You can't.

Raiderz4Life · 10-05-2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

To me, the elite qbs in this league are currently Brady, Rodgers. Peyton could be still, I don't know yet.

Mighty fine list there BBD.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raiderz4life

Mighty fine list there BBD.

I'm posting from my iPhone. Get at me bro.

bearsfan_51 · 10-05-2012, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Yet individual stats are also heavily reliant on team play as well. So how do you separate the 2? You can't.

I never said I was. But it matters to me a lot more that something as obviously team-based as win-loss record.

Eli throws an interception every 33 times he throws the ball. That number hasn't improved one bit as he's matured in his career (it's actually slightly worse over the last 2 1/2 seasons). That's almost double the rate of Rodgers.

Some of those interceptions are situationally dependent, but those situations aren't any more likely to happen to Eli as they are to anyone else. The Giants don't push the ball down the field with any more frequency than most teams, and they typically have a stronger running game and defense to play with.

Eli just turns the ball over too much to be considered elite in my book. It's not complicated, no matter how much you want to make this something it isn't.

SuperPacker · 10-05-2012, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raiderz4life

Mighty fine list there BBD.

y.f.s. · 10-05-2012, 06:23 PM

Numbers and metrics have a growing place in football. The problem right now is that traditional stats track nothing more than gross totals. It's trivia moreso than statistics.

The stat heads are onto something with Success Rates. I can't math, but it seems like that's a really good area to start building off of.

The problem is that people only like "their" stats.

One more thing (and I think it's Cosell that said this first)....there is no stat for a difficult pass that a QB refuses to attempt.

Giantsfan1080 · 10-05-2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

I never said I was. But it matters to me a lot more that something as obviously team-based as win-loss record.

Eli throws an interception every 33 times he throws the ball. That number hasn't improved one bit as he's matured in his career (it's actually slightly worse over the last 2 1/2 seasons).

Some of those interceptions are situationally dependent, but those situations aren't any more likely to happen to Eli as they are to anyone else. The Giants don't push the ball down the field with any more frequency than most teams, and they typically have a stronger running game and defense to play with.

Eli just turns the ball over too much to be considered elite in my book. It's not complicated, no matter how much you want to make this something it isn't.

Our run game and seasonal defense has been worse than average the last 3 years. Also, I'm actually pretty sure we do push throw deep more than almost any other team.

njx9 · 10-05-2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by y.f.s.

Numbers and metrics have a growing place in football. The problem right now is that traditional stats track nothing more than gross totals. It's trivia moreso than statistics.

The stat heads are onto something with Success Rates. I can't math, but it seems like that's a really good area to start building off of.

The problem is that people only like "their" stats.

i just don't buy that football can ever be distilled to numbers. like i've always said, you can use numbers to support an argument, but they shouldn't ever be the sole source of your argument. this isn't track, or swimming, or some other solo sport. every player is influenced too much by every other player.

bigbluedefense · 10-05-2012, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

I never said I was. But it matters to me a lot more that something as obviously team-based as win-loss record.

Eli throws an interception every 33 times he throws the ball. That number hasn't improved one bit as he's matured in his career (it's actually slightly worse over the last 2 1/2 seasons).

Some of those interceptions are situationally dependent, but those situations aren't any more likely to happen to Eli as they are to anyone else. The Giants don't push the ball down the field with any more frequency than most teams, and they typically have a stronger running game and defense to play with.

Eli just turns the ball over too much to be considered elite in my book. It's not complicated, no matter how much you want to make this something it isn't.

The Giants having a run game is the biggest myth about the team for the past 4 years. We haven't had a run game since 08. Worst in the league last year. Our defense is inconsistent. Statistically it's been below average. Eli is not the product of the team. The team is the product of Eli. Anyone who routinely watches this team play can see that easily.