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Old 10-05-2012, 06:16 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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False. W-L is useful for the evaluation of teams. It's far less useful when evaluating one of 53 players, even if it typically is the most important one.
Yet individual stats are also heavily reliant on team play as well. So how do you separate the 2? You can't.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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To me, the elite qbs in this league are currently Brady, Rodgers. Peyton could be still, I don't know yet.
Mighty fine list there BBD.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Mighty fine list there BBD.
I'm posting from my iPhone. Get at me bro.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Yet individual stats are also heavily reliant on team play as well. So how do you separate the 2? You can't.
I never said I was. But it matters to me a lot more that something as obviously team-based as win-loss record.

Eli throws an interception every 33 times he throws the ball. That number hasn't improved one bit as he's matured in his career (it's actually slightly worse over the last 2 1/2 seasons). That's almost double the rate of Rodgers.

Some of those interceptions are situationally dependent, but those situations aren't any more likely to happen to Eli as they are to anyone else. The Giants don't push the ball down the field with any more frequency than most teams, and they typically have a stronger running game and defense to play with.

Eli just turns the ball over too much to be considered elite in my book. It's not complicated, no matter how much you want to make this something it isn't.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Mighty fine list there BBD.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Numbers and metrics have a growing place in football. The problem right now is that traditional stats track nothing more than gross totals. It's trivia moreso than statistics.

The stat heads are onto something with Success Rates. I can't math, but it seems like that's a really good area to start building off of.

The problem is that people only like "their" stats.

One more thing (and I think it's Cosell that said this first)....there is no stat for a difficult pass that a QB refuses to attempt.

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Old 10-05-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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I never said I was. But it matters to me a lot more that something as obviously team-based as win-loss record.

Eli throws an interception every 33 times he throws the ball. That number hasn't improved one bit as he's matured in his career (it's actually slightly worse over the last 2 1/2 seasons).

Some of those interceptions are situationally dependent, but those situations aren't any more likely to happen to Eli as they are to anyone else. The Giants don't push the ball down the field with any more frequency than most teams, and they typically have a stronger running game and defense to play with.

Eli just turns the ball over too much to be considered elite in my book. It's not complicated, no matter how much you want to make this something it isn't.
Our run game and seasonal defense has been worse than average the last 3 years. Also, I'm actually pretty sure we do push throw deep more than almost any other team.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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I never said I was. But it matters to me a lot more that something as obviously team-based as win-loss record.

Eli throws an interception every 33 times he throws the ball. That number hasn't improved one bit as he's matured in his career (it's actually slightly worse over the last 2 1/2 seasons).

Some of those interceptions are situationally dependent, but those situations aren't any more likely to happen to Eli as they are to anyone else. The Giants don't push the ball down the field with any more frequency than most teams, and they typically have a stronger running game and defense to play with.

Eli just turns the ball over too much to be considered elite in my book. It's not complicated, no matter how much you want to make this something it isn't.
The Giants having a run game is the biggest myth about the team for the past 4 years. We haven't had a run game since 08. Worst in the league last year. Our defense is inconsistent. Statistically it's been below average. Eli is not the product of the team. The team is the product of Eli. Anyone who routinely watches this team play can see that easily.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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the thing is, you dont even need stats to say anything about eli. just watch him play and you'll know he isn't elite. it's not hard. well for non giants fans anyway.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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Our run game and seasonal defense has been worse than average the last 3 years. Also, I'm actually pretty sure we do push throw deep more than almost any other team.
If that were true, Eli's YPA would be much higher.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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the thing is, you dont even need stats to say anything about eli. just watch him play and you'll know he isn't elite. it's not hard. well for non giants fans anyway.
And this is also true. There isn't one Eli fan making an argument for him. But to BBD, everyone else is a "hater".



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Old 10-05-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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If that were true, Eli's YPA would be much higher.
He was #1 in the league last year in terms of yardage accumulated through the air (eliminating YAC numbers).

edit: He's 1st this year. Ended up 2nd place last year behind Brees. He was 3rd in 2010. 5th in 2009. 11th in 2008.

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Old 10-05-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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If that were true, Eli's YPA would be much higher.
Not really. The further you throw the harder it is to complete the pass. Eli was the best statistically at the deep ball last year but we still attempt it so much it lowers his YPA.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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the thing is, you dont even need stats to say anything about eli. just watch him play and you'll know he isn't elite. it's not hard. well for non giants fans anyway.
I can easily see what Eli does that makes him elite, and 80 percent of it is before the snap. And let's not question his arm strength either, he has plenty of arm. Eli makes at least 7 plays a game that leaves me in awe. And it's not always a physical play. Sometimes his mental awareness of the game is very impressive. But I don't expect most ppl on here to recognize that, bc most don't have the ability to read defenses.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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He was #1 in the league last year in terms of yardage accumulated through the air (eliminating YAC numbers).

edit: He's 1st this year. Ended up 2nd place last year behind Brees.
You're still wrong. He was 3rd. Rodgers was first. At least through the regular season.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a Giants fan but I think Eli is an elite QB. And the Giants do throw the ball downfield a lot more than most teams.

I'd like to add this to the discussion - something no one has pointed out. Eli CLEARLY makes his teammates better. CLEARLY. Bennett, Ballard, Cruz.

I'd rank em:

1) Rodgers
2) Brady
3) Peyton once he realizes Stokley cannot climb the seam
4) Brees
5) Eli
6) Ben
7) Matt Flynn

All are elite. The best of the bunch.

In an era when the best passers are as good as ever, why can't there be 7 elite guys?
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****! Again with this stuff?! Eli is the most polarized football player I ever seen. People LOVE and I mean LOVE talking about him good or bad. They should give him his own reality show!
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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I can easily see what Eli does that makes him elite, and 100 percent of it is because im a Giants fan. But I don't expect non Giants fans to recognize that, bc most arent giants homers.
This. (10 char)
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a Giants fan but I think Eli is an elite QB. And the Giants do throw the ball downfield a lot more than most teams.

I'd like to add this to the discussion - something no one has pointed out. Eli CLEARLY makes his teammates better. CLEARLY. Bennett, Ballard, Cruz.

I'd rank em:

1) Rodgers
2) Brady
3) Peyton once he realizes Stokley cannot climb the seam
4) Brees
5) Eli
6) Ben
7) Matt Flynn

All are elite. The best of the bunch.

In an era when the best passers are as good as ever, why can't there be 7 elite guys?
Matt Flynn???

I don't think 7 out of 32 players can be considered elite, but I guess it's a relatively subjective word.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a Giants fan but I think Eli is an elite QB. And the Giants do throw the ball downfield a lot more than most teams.

I'd like to add this to the discussion - something no one has pointed out. Eli CLEARLY makes his teammates better. CLEARLY. Bennett, Ballard, Cruz.

I'd rank em:

1) Rodgers
2) Brady
3) Peyton once he realizes Stokley cannot climb the seam
4) Brees
5) Eli
6) Ben
7) Matt Flynn

All are elite. The best of the bunch.

In an era when the best passers are as good as ever, why can't there be 7 elite guys?
Nonsense. He looks like he has downs and plays with the best defense and run game ever. Lulz, did he even throw 35 Tds?
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****! Again with this stuff?! Eli is the most polarized football player I ever seen. People LOVE and I mean LOVE talking about him good or bad. They should give him his own reality show!
Michael Vick disagrees.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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This. (10 char)
Sorry, but you're like 13. I don't take your opinion seriously.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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You're still wrong. He was 3rd. Rodgers was first. At least through the regular season.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, but you're like 13. I don't take your opinion seriously.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Ah. I was saying per pass. That would make far more sense in this case.
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