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Old 10-12-2012, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by vidae View Post
Cam Newton has the ability to come out of his "funk" and be a very productive QB. Vince Young was basically done in the NFL after his rookie year. The two are nothing alike.
Vince Young was a Pro Bowler in his rookie year. How is that being "done"?

How can you make assumptions about Cam being able to come out of his "funk"? You don't know that at all.

That's the whole point of this thread: to elicit discussion about whether or not Cam *will* follow the path of Vince Young or if he will, like you said, come out of his "funk" and work harder to be an actual NFL QB?

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And please show me one QB who doesn't mind losing in the NFL. I don't give a **** if he mopes on the sideline. Losing sucks, especially when there is a ton of pressure on you to be the very best, like no one ever was. (yeah I went there)

Maybe he could handle it a little better, but there are immaturity issues after losing and then there is Vince Young level headcase issues. Two completely different things.
The reason people point that out is because as an NFL QB, you can't overreact to losing. It's not about "minding" losing, it's about being able to deal with it. It's being able to hold your head high and your work ethic on-point even when you are losing week-in and week-out, instead of just checking out.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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This is a stir the pot article. Cam will be the target of a lot of these until his team wins more.

Against the Falcons:
62% completions, 2 passing TDs, 1 Rushing, 215 yards passing, 86 rushing

Where was this article last week? He hasn't been great all year but c'mon, this guy waited till he played the Seahawks defense? Nobody has any easy time against that pass rush and those corners. He did blow his opportunity to take the lead, like he blew the opportunity to beat the Falcons. That's more Tony Romo than Vince Young.

Chud is a mad scientist type so he can't adjust to the reality that Newton can't beat top defenses by himself.

DeAngelo Williams: 48 carries, 173 yards
Cam Newton: 40 carries, 209 yards
Jonathan Stewart: 25 carries, 107 yards

I know Stewart missed two games but I don't think much good can be said for a team whose QB is the leading rusher. Apparently DeAngelo and Stewart were paid to be decoy runningbacks. It's pathetic that they're so low in league rushing with the runners they have. The option is putting them in too many 2nd and then 3rd and longs.

An NFL article put it well:
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We'd argue the Panthers coaching staff hasn't helped. They don't have a foundation running game or drop-back passing attack. They rely on the option and the big play. When that doesn't work, they have no rhythm.
The focus for the offense and Cam has to be taking consistent gains and being in manageable down and distance. If they start handing the ball off and Cam starts hitting checkdowns they'll be much better.

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Old 10-12-2012, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Newton and Young is definitely a good comparison. You could probably throw Robert Griffin in there as well. And maybe Russell Wilson, he's pretty similar. Oh an Josh Johnson as well. Other than that the only players i'd compare Young and Newton to are Dennis Dixon, Charlie Batch, Steve McNair and Warren Moon. And watch out for Geno Smith next year too. He's pretty similar to all of those.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Because their playing style isn't all that much similar. Everything about Newton's game translates better to the pro's than Young's including his running style. Pretty much every QB who's entered the league was used to winning far more games than not. It's an adjustment that every young QB has to make. Again nobody was questioning his ability to handle losing when he was playing well for a 6 win team. Now that they're losing games and he's not playing well suddenly he can't handle losing? It's a terrible argument.
Vince Young, 2005, Junior @ University of Texas:
212/325, 65.2% completion, 3036 yards passing, 26 TDs, 10 INTs, 163.9 qb rating

Cam Newton, 2010, Junior @ Auburn University:
185/280, 66.1% completion, 2854 yards passing, 30 TDs, 7 INTs, 182.0 qb rating

Let's just compare these two as passers. Vince Young threw for more yards, and had more passing attempts than Cam. Now, he threw 3 more INTs and 4 less TDs, but otherwise played at a similarly high level as a passer in an offense that asked him to pass *more often* than Cam at Auburn.

Not every QB who enters the league is used to winning. Aaron Rodgers didn't win any Heismans or National Titles at Cal. Neither did Joe Montana at Notre Dame; in fact, Montana didn't do much at all in college. Tom Brady was even pulled by his head coach at Michigan for much of his senior year just to be replaced by a younger QB. Peyton Manning couldn't ever beat Florida in college and was labeled a choker. Drew Brees put up massive passing yards in college but was snubbed for all the major awards because his team (Purdue) didn't contend for the national championship.

The problem with QBs that win, A LOT, at the college level, like Vince Young and Cam Newton, and probably all of the USC QBs as well, is that SO MUCH is handed to them at such a young age, without them having to even work for it. They just use their natural athletic talents, and they are at the pinnacle of college football. However, in the NFL, everyone is athletic, so what separates mediocre QBs from the great ones in the NFL is nothing more than how hard they work. The reason Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers have been great is because they simply out-study, and out-work everyone else.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Because their playing style isn't all that much similar. Everything about Newton's game translates better to the pro's than Young's including his running style. Pretty much every QB who's entered the league was used to winning far more games than not. It's an adjustment that every young QB has to make. Again nobody was questioning his ability to handle losing when he was playing well for a 6 win team. Now that they're losing games and he's not playing well suddenly he can't handle losing? It's a terrible argument.
Except for this guy:
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Newton and Young is definitely a good comparison. You could probably throw Robert Griffin in there as well. And maybe Russell Wilson, he's pretty similar. Oh an Josh Johnson as well. Other than that the only players i'd compare Young and Newton to are Dennis Dixon, Charlie Batch, Steve McNair and Warren Moon. And watch out for Geno Smith next year too. He's pretty similar to all of those.
This is the most uninspired nonsense anyone has posted in this thread.

All you can think about is the race card. Are you that racist?

You can't possibly consider OTHER things besides race? You can't think about their situations as Heisman winners and National Title winners? And how that will affect their career in the NFL?

ALL you can fixate on is the color of their skin?
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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This is the most uninspired nonsense anyone has posted in this thread.

All you can think about is the race card. Are you that racist?

You can't possibly consider OTHER things besides race? You can't think about their situations as Heisman winners and National Title winners? And how that will affect their career in the NFL?

ALL you can fixate on is the color of their skin?
Trolling the troll > Feeding the troll
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Let's look at Cam and Young as passers. Has Cam ever comfortably sat in the pocket and completed a timing throw? Yes, well that's check one over Vince Young. Does Cam have a goofy and low sidearm delivery that gets his passes batted down from the pocket? No, check two for Cam. Has Newton ever had success in the NFL because of his passing? Yes, check 3. Does Cam have good strong mechanics when he steps up in the pocket? Check four. Does Cam get almost suicidally depressed because people don't like him? Check five.

Look a little deeper and you'll see they're drastically different players on the field, even if they're both athletic, black heisman winners who won OROY.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Vince Young failed as a quarterback because he had a horrible work ethic. He found early success bc of how gifted he was, but refused to put in the necessary work required to elevate his game once teams figured him out.

Cam has a great work ethic and competitive desire. I don't see how the same will happen to him, because I fully expect him to work and make the adjustments he'll need to make to continue his development.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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Let's look at Cam and Young as passers. Has Cam ever comfortably sat in the pocket and completed a timing throw? Yes, well that's check one over Vince Young. Does cam have a goofy and low sidearm delivery that gets his passes batted down from the pocket? No, check two for cam. Has Cam ever had success in the NFL because of his passing? Yes, check 3. Does Cam have good strong mechanics when he steps up in the pocket? Check four. Does Cam get almost suicidally depressed because people don't like him? Check five.
1. You've never seen Vince Young sit in the pocket and complete a timing throw? Go back and watch him play.

2. Because we all know that goofy, sidearm deliveries mean anything in the NFL when it comes to evaluating QBs (see: Rivers, Phillip)

3. Has Vince Young ever had success in the NFL because of his passing? Are you telling me that all Vince Young ever did when he won all those NFL games in his career was line up in the wildcat and run?

4. I don't think you've even studied the "mechanics" of both QBs. If you have watched anything with Cam this year, you'd notice that his mechanics are actually off. Several film analysts such as Greg Cosell and Mike Mayock have even said as much.

5. How do you know anything about Cam's personal life and mental stability? Do you hang out with him daily? Play Madden with him at his pad?
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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Vince Young failed as a quarterback because he had a horrible work ethic. He found early success bc of how gifted he was, but refused to put in the necessary work required to elevate his game once teams figured him out.
Exactly.

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Cam has a great work ethic and competitive desire. I don't see how the same will happen to him, because I fully expect him to work and make the adjustments he'll need to make to continue his development.
How exactly do you know Cam has a great work ethic? How do you know that he wasn't just using his natural athletic ability to win games and now that defenses are figuring out how to play him, he becomes frustrated and lacks the motivation to really learn the position of QB?

Greg Cosell, NFL Films, analyst, says as much in interviews. He basically is saying that the Carolina offense is too gimmicky, that it relies on the college option play too much, and that relying on gimmick plays coupled with Newton's athleticism is a bad thing at this point in his career because it is preventing him from actually learning how to play the position. Learning how to be a QB is almost 80% about film study and pre-snap recognition of defense. Cam has to put the time in, and his offensive coordinator has to become more committed to installing a conventional NFL offense.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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The reason Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers have been great is because they simply out-study, and out-work everyone else.
These are the guys Cam Newton talks about and wants to emulate. Cam has the work ethic and the drive. Obviously he knows he can't get by on natural ability. He isn't Vince Young or Mike Vick in Atlanta.

The Carolina Panthers have had 4 winning seasons in 17 years. I'm completely fine with his hatred of losing. Rivera is a statue out there but nobody talks about that.

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Greg Cosell, NFL Films, analyst, says as much in interviews. He basically is saying that the Carolina offense is too gimmicky, that it relies on the college option play too much, and that relying on gimmick plays coupled with Newton's athleticism is a bad thing at this point in his career because it is preventing him from actually learning how to play the position. Learning how to be a QB is almost 80% about film study and pre-snap recognition of defense. Cam has to put the time in, and his offensive coordinator has to become more committed to installing a conventional NFL offense.
Cosell is 100% correct. They really need to get over the option. Cam is a pocket QB who will hang in there almost too much. Big Ben scrambles more than Newton.

The issue with Newton's work ethic is that there are diminishing returns. He's insanely competitive. Players can put too much on their back. Football doesn't work that way. Eli Manning is the perfect example of hanging in the game.

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"He's going to work hard until it's fixed," Cecil Newton said. "He's always done that."
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/1...-1-4-start-to/

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Old 10-12-2012, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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1. You've never seen Vince Young sit in the pocket and complete a timing throw? Go back and watch him play.

2. Because we all know that goofy, sidearm deliveries mean anything in the NFL when it comes to evaluating QBs (see: Rivers, Phillip)

3. Has Vince Young ever had success in the NFL because of his passing? Are you telling me that all Vince Young ever did when he won all those NFL games in his career was line up in the wildcat and run?

4. I don't think you've even studied the "mechanics" of both QBs. If you have watched anything with Cam this year, you'd notice that his mechanics are actually off. Several film analysts such as Greg Cosell and Mike Mayock have even said as much.

5. How do you know anything about Cam's personal life and mental stability? Do you hang out with him daily? Play Madden with him at his pad?
1. Why? So I can see Vince fail to do what I said he's never done?

2. Rivers' deliver definitely makes him a better QB and not something he's had to work around to keep from getting his passes batted down...

3. Yes, or are we going to pretend that Tebow can passes the ball to? Cause Vince Young won games exactly the way Tebow did, by running the ball and occassionally lobbing a ball up to a wide open receiver because teams have keyed in on his running.

4. Good thing you read what I said, which was clearly that Cam has picture perfect mechanics, every time.

5. Yes, yes I do...and he just called your comparison "intellectual laziness befitting of an espn 'analyst'"...
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 10-12-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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Vince Young was a Pro Bowler in his rookie year. How is that being "done"?
Learn to read Thumper. I said AFTER his rookie year he was done. AFTER it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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The problem with QBs that win, A LOT, at the college level, like Vince Young and Cam Newton, and probably all of the USC QBs as well, is that SO MUCH is handed to them at such a young age, without them having to even work for it. They just use their natural athletic talents, and they are at the pinnacle of college football. However, in the NFL, everyone is athletic, so what separates mediocre QBs from the great ones in the NFL is nothing more than how hard they work. The reason Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers have been great is because they simply out-study, and out-work everyone else.
Well none of us are around the players. We can't automatically assume one player has more success than another just because of their work habits. Newton may work as hard as every other starter you listed. Football has so many variables and it's not all on the quarterback. Newton isn't holding the team back. It's not like the Panthers are built to go to the Super Bowl right now. And guys like Rodgers, Brees, or Brady...they might just have better instincts and arms in addition to being put in better situations by their team to win. Let's not forget that this just Newton's second season. He still doesn't have that much experience under his belt. What happened to the days when a quarterback was given three or four seasons to develop?
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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1. Why? So I can see Vince fail to do what I said he's never done?
See, you've never even studied Young. You're admitting yourself that you just made a false, groundless assumption.

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2. Rivers' deliver definitely makes him a better QB and not something he's had to work around to keep from getting his passes batted down...
So why would it hinder Young from being a good passer, which he has been in college and at times in the NFL.

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3. Yes, or are we going to pretend that Tebow can passes the ball to? Cause Vince Young won games exactly the way Tebow did, by running the ball and occassionally lobbing a ball up to a wide open receiver because teams have keyed in on his running.
Can't the same argument be made about Cam Newton? All we can do is compare their efficiency in college and in the NFL, and Young and Newton are comparable with regard to these stats.

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4. Good thing you read what I said, which was clearly Cam has picture perfect mechanics everytime.
Clearly you are using extreme hyperbole here because you have no response to the fact that Newton has marginally better mechanics than Young at this point his career.

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5. Yes, yes I do.
Exactly.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Learn to read Thumper. I said AFTER his rookie year he was done. AFTER it.
And that's why people are bringing this up regarding Newton. There's a potential here for Newton to follow that same career path.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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And that's why people are bringing this up regarding Newton. There's a potential here for Newton to follow that same career path.
I don't see it. Cam knows he has to work hard and has the drive to do so. Vince Young never had it. Vince Young failed because he stopped trying and I don't see Cam ever doing that. I just don't.

And that's because I go over to his "pad" and play Madden with him.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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No I didn't just go study Vince Young, n neither have you. What I have done is watch him play, and his playing style was drastically different from Cam's in their rookie years and in college. Why you seem to refuse to acknowledge that, as well as how extreme Young's off the field issues were, I don't know. But I didn't understand your Kolboner either.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say its necessarily defensive coordinators have "figured out" Cam Newton. I'd say its more that Cam Newton has one of the worst offensive lines in the league protecting him.

Sure, defenses have figured out more of Carolina's system, that's true, that was inevitable. But Carolina's offensive line has only two quality starters, Gross and Kalil, and now Kalil is gone for the season. Silatolu is an extremely raw rookie, and it definitely shows. Byron Bell isn't Wayne Hunter, but he's still not very good. Geoff Hangartner and Gary Williams are both complete trash.

Cam Newton still needs development as a passer in order to reach his full potential. There have certainly been situations where Cam Newton made mistakes that were entirely his own fault. That being said, when you are a young quarterback and constantly being pressured, your development towards not making those mistakes is going to be hindered. We saw last year with decent protection what he was capable of as a passer. He may have great athleticism that allows him to still make plays, but now he's doing so with his legs, and therefore robbing his arm of the necessary experience.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Chud is a mad scientist type so he can't adjust to the reality that Newton can't beat top defenses by himself.

DeAngelo Williams: 48 carries, 173 yards
Cam Newton: 40 carries, 209 yards
Jonathan Stewart: 25 carries, 107 yards

I know Stewart missed two games but I don't think much good can be said for a team whose QB is the leading rusher. Apparently DeAngelo and Stewart were paid to be decoy runningbacks. It's pathetic that they're so low in league rushing with the runners they have. The option is putting them in too many 2nd and then 3rd and longs.

An NFL article put it well:


The focus for the offense and Cam has to be taking consistent gains and being in manageable down and distance. If they start handing the ball off and Cam starts hitting checkdowns they'll be much better.
I wanted to make a point to look at Chudzinski this season after his initial success last year with Carolina because it reminded of his debut with the Browns in 07'. He took a terrible offense and made it top ten and made Anderson/Edwards look like future stars but the next season he wasn't able to build on what he did.

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I wouldn't say its necessarily defensive coordinators have "figured out" Cam Newton. I'd say its more that Cam Newton has one of the worst offensive lines in the league protecting him.

Sure, defenses have figured out more of Carolina's system, that's true, that was inevitable. But Carolina's offensive line has only two quality starters, Gross and Kalil, and now Kalil is gone for the season. Silatolu is an extremely raw rookie, and it definitely shows. Byron Bell isn't Wayne Hunter, but he's still not very good. Geoff Hangartner and Gary Williams are both complete trash.

Newton has more talent then both Anderson/Edwards put together but, (along with the read option) I think the problem is that GM Hurney did nothing to fortify or upgrade the offense other then FB Tolbert. It's early to judge but it looks like a pretty terrible off season, signing Nakamura, Bruce Campbell and OG Pollack. He basically decided to stand pat with not much to work with in the first place.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Nah, I don't think they are similar are at all.

I mean Vince actually won games.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Vince Young failed as a quarterback because he had a horrible work ethic. He found early success bc of how gifted he was, but refused to put in the necessary work required to elevate his game once teams figured him out.

Cam has a great work ethic and competitive desire. I don't see how the same will happen to him, because I fully expect him to work and make the adjustments he'll need to make to continue his development.
All this.
Cam's problem isn't that he had too much success in college.
His problem is his competitive desire and his belief that ALL wins and losses for the Panthers begin and end with HIS PLAY ALONE.

Why is the OP pushing this comparison??
The main difference between Cam and VY is their mental makeup.
VY threatened to quit the Longhorns football team more than once and Mack Brown had to kiss his ass personally to get his prima donna QB to buy in.

Has VY....EVER.....been described as one of the hardest workers on any football team???

For those diehards looking for signs that ultimately Cam will bust as a pro, it's too early to cash those chips in.
This is a fallback year IMO statistically for Cam, but it will be a growth year in terms of leadership and his NFL learning curve for playing the QB position.

Like others have stated, if you want a QB who's comfortable with losing, I'll show you a loser.

Troy Aikman, Elway, Tom Brady, Peyton and Steve Young all were 'jerks' to their teammates when their squads weren't playing winning football.
All these guys were known to cuss out both WRs and Olineman for screwing up assignments.

Once Cam learns how to not internalize every loss and let his emotions be so obvious when the Panthers lose, his 'attitude' problems on the sidelines will disappear.

And I'm sorry but I don't think we'll ever see another QB come into the SEC for one season and almost single handedly lead his squad to the NC and win the Heisman.
Reggie Bush forfeited the Heisman for NCAA violations, VY didn't win it.
It's a lazy comparison between VY and Newton. Besides their race, height and mobility, there really isn't much the same about them as football players.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Nah, I don't think they are similar are at all.

I mean Vince actually won games.
Duly noted.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say its necessarily defensive coordinators have "figured out" Cam Newton. I'd say its more that Cam Newton has one of the worst offensive lines in the league protecting him.

Sure, defenses have figured out more of Carolina's system, that's true, that was inevitable. But Carolina's offensive line has only two quality starters, Gross and Kalil, and now Kalil is gone for the season. Silatolu is an extremely raw rookie, and it definitely shows. Byron Bell isn't Wayne Hunter, but he's still not very good. Geoff Hangartner and Gary Williams are both complete trash.

Cam Newton still needs development as a passer in order to reach his full potential. There have certainly been situations where Cam Newton made mistakes that were entirely his own fault. That being said, when you are a young quarterback and constantly being pressured, your development towards not making those mistakes is going to be hindered. We saw last year with decent protection what he was capable of as a passer. He may have great athleticism that allows him to still make plays, but now he's doing so with his legs, and therefore robbing his arm of the necessary experience.
Kalil being out means its gonna get a lot worse. Cam isn't gonna be successful with the current play calling. They can't keep calling slow developing option plays and deep passes without real deep threats. Let that expensive backfield actually help out the second year QB.

Letting Shockey go, or at least not filling his spot with a new TE was a mistake. Being able to throw and run out of the 2TE formation was so important for keeping defenses guessing.

I'll be really disappointed if they come out with the option against the Cowboys. Demarcus Ware and Sean Lee aren't going to have any of that nonsense. Not to mention Connor practiced against it all year last year.

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I wanted to make a point to look at Chudzinski this season after his initial success last year with Carolina because it reminded of his debut with the Browns in 07'. He took a terrible offense and made it top ten and made Anderson/Edwards look like future stars but the next season he wasn't able to build on what he did.
This has been in my mind for a few weeks. What Cam and the offense needs is basic football. Being under center, handing the ball off, not being in Shotgun 100%. They've forgotten they're a power running team.

Last edited by ShutDwn : 10-12-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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