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Old 10-12-2012, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
But he can't do any of those things at an elite level, so who cares? Let's not get caught up in shiny, different things just for the sake of novelty (a common approach on this board).
Well for one he's been in the league four years now, hardly call that a shiny different thing when Julio and AJ Green are in nearly every WR ranking you see in their 2nd years. If you don't think he's any good as a WR or player that's fine, but not sure if serious but you just end up sounding like a 14 year old angry Bears fan. But yea, instead let's completely ignore how good of a player he is and instead use extreme hyperbole even when it's used incorrectly.





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I dunno what you want me to tell you but he doesn't snag the ball out of the air when his QB just throws the ball up for him, the way those guys do. Which isn't to say he's a bad receiver, he just doesn't stand out in that area.

I just look at that as a player style, but you can be an elite WR without living in the air. Calvin, Fitz, Julio, those guys use their height to their advantage, but there have always been elite WR's in the NFL without that trait. But at the same time, he's 5'11 with a 40 inch vertical. It's not like he can't get up there if he needs to.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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True, and that's why I keep using the word I, because I would want a #1 with the more typical style. Same issue I had with Desean Jackson back when he was the best deep threat in the NFL.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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Well for one he's been in the league four years now, hardly call that a shiny different thing when Julio and AJ Green are in nearly every WR ranking you see in their 2nd years. If you don't think he's any good as a WR or player that's fine, but not sure if serious but you just end up sounding like a 14 year old angry Bears fan. But yea, instead let's completely ignore how good of a player he is and instead use extreme hyperbole even when it's used incorrectly.
If I thought you actually knew what hyperbole meant, this would be really ironic coming from the person that suggested Harvin is one of the best players in the NFL.

Harvin is a really good player. I never suggested he wasn't. He's not one of the best players in the NFL, however, nor is he an elite player at any one thing.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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He's elite at getting yards after the catch, I don't know how you can argue against that.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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Also, as someone that has watched every Vikings game this year, I can tell you that the biggest difference so far with the Vikings is Ponder. He's the #1 story of the season and the most valuable player on the Vikings so far. Some of that is aided by Harvin, sure, but the quarterback is almost always the biggest component in an offense. Not a receiver who is only going to be involved in, tops, 20%-25% of the offensive plays.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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He's elite at getting yards after the catch, I don't know how you can argue against that.
Ok fair enough, but part of that is by offensive design because Harvin catches so many screen and swing passes that a standard wide receiver isn't going to have (much more like a pass-catching runningback in that regard). That's a valuable thing, sure, but is it that valuable?
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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I just skimmed through this thread but he is also a weapon in the return game.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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He's not better than Wes Wel... HAHAHAAHHA
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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Eh, i'm leaning more with bf_51 on this one. He isn't elite at any one thing aside from his creativity and natural running ability after the catch, so if i need a #1 WR, i'm taking a decently long list of guys before i go to Percy. There also has to be some concern as to why he doesn't score nearly as many TDs as other top WRs do.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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Andre Johnson never had 10 TDs in a single season, but no one ever bothered to question him based on that. Percy's an elite weapon right now, probably not a top 5 receiver but close enough given his return ability/ability as a runner/receiver. Still think the Vikes should run some longer routes for him every once in a while.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Ok fair enough, but part of that is by offensive design because Harvin catches so many screen and swing passes that a standard wide receiver isn't going to have (much more like a pass-catching runningback in that regard). That's a valuable thing, sure, but is it that valuable?
well the reason they throw him all those passes and design their offense that way is because he is elite in terms of YAC. The thing that is interesting is that it is actually working. The Vikings are 4-1. In general I feel like guys like him get locked up by teams that tackle well. You get a physical defense with corners who press and safeties and LBs who can run and hit and all those plays go nowhere. But they played SF a few weeks ago and it was working, so what can you say.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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Andre Johnson never had 10 TDs in a single season, but no one ever bothered to question him based on that. Percy's an elite weapon right now, probably not a top 5 receiver but close enough given his return ability/ability as a runner/receiver. Still think the Vikes should run some longer routes for him every once in a while.
Except him being a good returner has nothing to do with his skills as a receiver.. or his skill out of the backfield. Does it give him overall value? Sure it does, but when considering other guys for a #1 WR spot, he falls way short.

And no one (actually, saints-tigers did give him **** for not ever getting 10tds) really bothered to criticize AJ on his td totals because he's had five 1100+ yd receiving seasons and back to back years of 100/1500 in his prime. At his peak, he was unstoppable and was arguably the best WR in the NFL. So it's not quite the same.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:59 AM    (permalink
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I remember a lot of people calling out Andre over his TDs during the Fitz v AJ debates.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Ok fair enough, but part of that is by offensive design because Harvin catches so many screen and swing passes that a standard wide receiver isn't going to have (much more like a pass-catching runningback in that regard). That's a valuable thing, sure, but is it that valuable?
Wayment....

So how is this an argument for Ponder? I like Ponder a lot, and he has improved drastically, but this is still a very controlled and managed passing game. The reason why it works is because they can get explosive outcomes with low risk/variance playcalling, and that's largely because of Harvin.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Wayment....

So how is this an argument for Ponder? I like Ponder a lot, and he has improved drastically, but this is still a very controlled and managed passing game. The reason why it works is because they can get explosive outcomes with low risk/variance playcalling, and that's largely because of Harvin.
Because Ponder has by far made the biggest improvement from this year to last. They had the same offense last year with Harvin and it didn't work at all. Ponder isn't the best player on Minnesota's offense, but he's definitely the most important.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Well Harvin did blow up last year once Ponder was named QB.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Edit-wrong thread.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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I'd say he has a strong case as the most explosive offensive player in the league. Someone like him is bound to get underrated in the grand scheme because he's not a specialist - it's a plague on the multi-skilled athlete.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Harvin and Randall Cobb both remind me of Eric Metcalf.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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If I thought you actually knew what hyperbole meant, this would be really ironic coming from the person that suggested Harvin is one of the best players in the NFL.

Harvin is a really good player. I never suggested he wasn't. He's not one of the best players in the NFL, however, nor is he an elite player at any one thing.
Sometimes its a lot harder finding that inside guy vs that outside guy though.

Think about it, how many dominant inside WRs are there? Cruz, Welker, Harvin. 3 guys.

We can go 10 deep at outside WR and not think twice. It's easier to find the guys on the outside.

I understand you can in theory, move those outside guys inside, but it doesn't apply practically in many cases. Some guys are just better outside.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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AP might not even be the best RB from his draft class. At least this year.

Him and marshawn are pretty neck and neck.
Wait, what????
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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Because Ponder has by far made the biggest improvement from this year to last. They had the same offense last year with Harvin and it didn't work at all. Ponder isn't the best player on Minnesota's offense, but he's definitely the most important.
Ponder is not our most important player. It's Percy by a mile. Ponder plays the most important position.

Percy is a top 10 player in the league. He isn't just an inside threat either, he has been really good on the outside all year as well. He is the most dynamic weapon in the league as well as the most versatile.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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I don't see what's wrong with moving a guy around and forcing the defense to account for him in different ways. It creates mismatches on the field.

I think Harvin could be a 1000 yard RB if he was one full time, I think he can be a great slot WR like Cruz if he was one full time, I think he can be a Steve Smith like WR on the outside if he was there full time.

The question is, why force him into one role when he's good enough to do it all? It forces defensive coordinators to spend more time on him, and opens up other players on your team when you move him around.

His monetary value is difficult to project bc he's injury prone, but I absolutely view him as an asset to the team.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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He gets banged up a lot because he runs so damn hard but he isn't really injury prone. His migraine issue is solved and he has never had a major injury, just lots of nagging ones. He is one of the tougher guys in the league so those don't hinder him too much.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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Percy is a top 10 player in the league. He isn't just an inside threat either, he has been really good on the outside all year as well. He is the most dynamic weapon in the league as well as the most versatile.
cmon dude... no.
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