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Old 10-14-2012, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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Least Clutch Team Ever!
This, and whats worse is we all have been bitching about our offense failing us when we need in the 4th. Its just such a ******* familiar story to watch unfold. We go up big, allow teams to come back and then all of a sudden in the 4th, after we were able to score at will in the first half, can't pick up a ******* first down. This team is too talented to be losing games like this, especially with this schedule.

Also I missed the entire game and only caught the last few minutes of it on the radio as I was driving back from a trip to DC. Anyone have any major pointers to share with me on what wasn't evident from a cell phone lol.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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I thought they played really well (not elite, but good enough) the first 3 quarters or so. When it was 20-10 for a while, the defense wasn't giving up a lot of anything.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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Seattle was pretty vanilla on defense all day. They played a ton of single high cover 3 and rarely blitzed. I was pretty surprised we didn't try to go deep more often, especially down the seam. This game left me with a pretty bitter taste in my mouth, and I am foreseeing a season much like 2005 was, a win-loss-win-loss back and forth heart breaker.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:02 AM    (permalink
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This, and whats worse is we all have been bitching about our offense failing us when we need in the 4th. Its just such a ******* familiar story to watch unfold. We go up big, allow teams to come back and then all of a sudden in the 4th, after we were able to score at will in the first half, can't pick up a ******* first down. This team is too talented to be losing games like this, especially with this schedule.

Also I missed the entire game and only caught the last few minutes of it on the radio as I was driving back from a trip to DC. Anyone have any major pointers to share with me on what wasn't evident from a cell phone lol.
Seattle muffed a punt right before the half. 3rd and goal with 6 seconds, Brady throws it out of the back of the endzone.

Only, no receivers around. Intentional grounding, end of half.

That right there was a harbinger of things to come. This game should have been out of hand in the third.

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0-3 against bird teams. 3-0 against nonbird teams.

The Jets could break either way (some people call Jets "birds")
You know what that means, right?
Pat's lose to Falcons in the SB.

(Kidding of course. So far this isn't SB caliber team. There's still time though.)
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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I'm extremely hesitant to say were a power house at this point any more. We got way lucky with our trip to the SB last year, and this year just feels like 2009 all over again. We see we have the potential but lose almost all of our close games, and I could see us (if we reach the post season) getting blown out and another 1 and done scenario. Granted its early and this is the nervous fan in me talking, but its just so frustrating to watch the same damn thing happen in close games over and over again for the last few years. Least clutch team ever describes it perfectly.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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I still have More faith than I did in 2009 because we have shown that we have something resembling a running game and despite some **** moments, I think our defense is still better than it has been in a few years. Not a great defense, but we have a few guys who have the ability to generate pressure and we can defend the run. The passing defense is another story, but I really am out of explanations as to what the **** is going on back there.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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At this point, I think that its just bad DB play.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-e...otecting-leads

So obnoxious.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Hey guys I'm going to apologize in advance for this EE-esque rant. Let me preface this by saying I'd be hard pressed to pick a non-conference regular season game that I've wanted quite as bad as this one since I became a fan. Everything about the Seattle matchup intrigued me from how they were trending upward as a team, how freakishly huge their DB's are, and how seemingly well we matched up against their offense. I in my optimism was hoping to see something resembling our 2010 victory over the Pittsburgh Steelers. The offense seemed to be clicking on all cylinders and Russell Wilson is awful. Combine that with the fact that this is a team that has been around the block before and played on some of the biggest stages out there, I thought we had a legitimate chance to humble a fanbase that honestly going in to this week thought that their defense was a mecha-hybrid of the 1985 Bears and the 2000 Ravens.

By all accounts the game started well. Brady had his matchup with Welker in the slot, and was precise in delivering the ball in tough spots to Lloyd where they were taking advantage of a lumbering Browner. Gronk was getting targets, and was picking up significant chunks against the slightly overrated Chancellor. They started fast and seemingly had the Seahawks number, but as the game progressed they panicked. I still find it hard to place too much blame on the offense, yes they sucked in the red zone, and made uncountable mistakes down the stretch, but they gave the D great field position for most of the game and scored more points than any team had to date on that defense.

The real thing that is killing me today is the realization that the D isn't any better, and quite possibly is worse. We have 3 unique talents in Jones, Wilfork, and Spikes (with Mayo and Love being acceptable most of the time), but they're being wasted by the overwhelming cascade of below averageness that is the rest of that unit. This offseason it looks like we're going to have to close the book on a number of unsuccessful draft choices that totally plateaued after showing just enough promise to give us hope that they would develop into solid starters.

McCourty-1st
Chung- High 2nd
Dowling- High 2nd
Brace- High 2nd
Cunningham-2nd
Bequette-3rd

It's misses like these and the Meriweather, Wheatley, Butler, McKenzie, and Crable fiascos that have killed us from taking that Texans, Arizona, or Seattle type next step defensively. It's tough drafting where we have for the past 10 years, but we've settled and reached on so many mediocre talents that we've tried to talk ourselves into. We had the right idea when we went after Jones this year, and the intent was right when we traded up for Hightower, but even if these guys grow into stars there is still the perma-stink that is the rest of the recent draft picks that are going to take years to get rid of. This defense needs a chemistry change because they have a loser's chemistry. After this season I'd honestly be in favor of a 2001 type veteran reboot of this defense. It can't be any worse than rolling out this same unit again with another year's "experience".

Also, **** Kyle Arrington. I really wish the guy was better because he tries so hard, and was a great story his first year here, but he's been awful the past 1+ seasons. The interception totals covered up how bad he was last year, but this season he's been exposed and hopefully benched for good. I honestly just want them to start Dowling and Dennard the rest of the way so they can see what they have there. I think we need someone new to coach the DB's too, because this **** is embarrassing.

It brings us back to the Hightower thing because while he's been good so far in 2 of the 3 games he's played it was obvious last night that the Patriots were just fine without him. Drafting an over sized run stuffer was a completely redundant move when we had Spikes. The fact that Janoris Jenkins, Kevin Zeitler, and Harrison Smith have been good just adds salt to the wounds because those were legitimate need positions. I like Hightower's skill set, and in a perfect world he'd be the final piece to an already great defense, but it's hard to look back now and think that it was the right pick.

The thing that makes this situation all the more sad is that we're going to turn this thing around. Gronk and Hernandez are going to get healthy and the offense is going to start clicking again. We're going to go on a mini run and get one of those 5 sack 3 pick games from the defense which is going to make everyone think that we've turned the corner, but we'll all know deep down that this team can't win in the clutch.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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I think they're were reporting facts rather than opinions so not sure where the problem is to be honest.

Brady was both great at times out there and at others made some mental lapses that cost them. His numbers speak for themselves but there were a couple of near ints. by Seattle DBs that could have made it a lot worse. The decision to forgo the FG before the half with 6 seconds left i blame the coaches for that.

Bottom line #1 is Tom has to do too much. They don't rely enough on the ground game to where he has to throw it 50 something times to win a game against a tough defense.

Bottom line #2 the defense just cant line up and win games down the stretch. When they're creative and bring added pressure from differant direction they do fine as they did yesterday for a majority of the 2nd and 3rd periods. When left to play straight up at the end of the game they can't get enough pressure/cover to win a football game. as cmarq pointed out they'll right the ship, win a bunch of games, and get to the playoffs but the underlying problem isn't going away. For you old enough to remember. Mike Haynes, Ray Clayborn, Rick Sanford and Tim Fox aren't walking through that door.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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I was really concerned when Brady forced the ball over a 6'2" CB to a 5'9" WR that can't get separation. Branch was giving up 5 inches and Brady threw it up as if he expected Branch to jump up and win that battle...

Also, why is Brady not throwing the ball at Gronk in the redzone??? He's 6'6"... if you throw it over him, I don't think it's going to be picked off...

It just annoys me that this team is about as talented as you can get on offense and they can't produce 1 fourth quarter scoring drive (even a field goal). The game could have been won if the Patriots got even within 35 yards of the endzone... They really couldn't even cross mid field.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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I was really concerned when Brady forced the ball over a 6'2" CB to a 5'9" WR that can't get separation. Branch was giving up 5 inches and Brady threw it up as if he expected Branch to jump up and win that battle...

Also, why is Brady not throwing the ball at Gronk in the redzone??? He's 6'6"... if you throw it over him, I don't think it's going to be picked off...

It just annoys me that this team is about as talented as you can get on offense and they can't produce 1 fourth quarter scoring drive (even a field goal). The game could have been won if the Patriots got even within 35 yards of the endzone... They really couldn't even cross mid field.
I think they just sort of half assed their way through the whole game. Don't take the sure FG with 6 seconds to go in the half and get nothing. Waste timeouts in the second half for no apparent reasons and with a 13 point lead let Seattle just sache themselves down the field with very little resistance. The capper had to be their defense on the last drive. It was neither prevent nor rush the passer. Ole is about the only word i can think of.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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It brings us back to the Hightower thing because while he's been good so far in 2 of the 3 games he's played it was obvious last night that the Patriots were just fine without him. Drafting an over sized run stuffer was a completely redundant move when we had Spikes. The fact that Janoris Jenkins, Kevin Zeitler, and Harrison Smith have been good just adds salt to the wounds because those were legitimate need positions. I like Hightower's skill set, and in a perfect world he'd be the final piece to an already great defense, but it's hard to look back now and think that it was the right pick.
I was with you on everything up until this point. You were on it from the second it happened so i assume its just because you didnt love the pick from the get go, but Hightower has been fine and played pretty damn well for us. Hes been much better in the passing game than anyone including myself would have given him credit for, and I just think you need to lay off that pick until we get more time to digest it. Hes looked good for the first few weeks of this season, there is no reason to throw him under the bus because were 3-3. I will gladly say it has been the offenses fault. Which brings me to the next point of

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I think they're were reporting facts rather than opinions so not sure where the problem is to be honest.

Brady was both great at times out there and at others made some mental lapses that cost them. His numbers speak for themselves but there were a couple of near ints. by Seattle DBs that could have made it a lot worse. The decision to forgo the FG before the half with 6 seconds left i blame the coaches for that.

Bottom line #1 is Tom has to do too much. They don't rely enough on the ground game to where he has to throw it 50 something times to win a game against a tough defense.

Bottom line #2 the defense just cant line up and win games down the stretch. When they're creative and bring added pressure from differant direction they do fine as they did yesterday for a majority of the 2nd and 3rd periods. When left to play straight up at the end of the game they can't get enough pressure/cover to win a football game. as cmarq pointed out they'll right the ship, win a bunch of games, and get to the playoffs but the underlying problem isn't going away. For you old enough to remember. Mike Haynes, Ray Clayborn, Rick Sanford and Tim Fox aren't walking through that door.
Tom is not asked to do too much. For years weve all argued with Colts fans/NFL fans saying he was just as good or better than Manning. Now either thats not true and were asking Brady to be Manning when he isn't, or he just isn't playing like he used to at this point in his career any longer. Either way expecting our world class QB to pick up a few first downs or get us in FG position in the 4th (hugely lacking these past few years) is not asking him to do too much. Especially when we saw Manning bring his team back time and time again to win the game, how often did we see manning fail to pick up a 1st down when his team needed it? Or fail to score the go ahead TD when they needed it?

Every ******* time this team goes up big and teams get back in all of a sudden our offense can't pick up a first down and as a fan I'm getting tired of watching this **** happen. I really just don't see this team bouncing back too much or making a push for a play off spot / post season run what so ever. Again, I could be over reacting, but this team has not shown any mental toughness against the more competitive teams in the league. Ok sure we came back against Buffalo, they ******* suck and we never should of been down to begin with.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.

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Old 10-15-2012, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Arrington this year:

22/27 (81.5%), 357 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT, 1 PD, 158.3 rating against

Literally could not get worse.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Arrington this year:

22/27 (81.5%), 357 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT, 1 PD, 158.3 rating against

Literally could not get worse.
I find out odd how McCourty gets killed for his play and yet Arrington's failures were ignored.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Vaylor View Post
I find out odd how McCourty gets killed for his play and yet Arrington's failures were ignored.
Trust me I've been killing both of these guys for their play for a long time. It's the nature of the beast of being a first round pick vs. a fringe free agent pickup. Plus, the 7 interceptions last year distracted everyone from just how awful Arrington was last year.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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Where did this QB named "Brady" go? I'd really like to swap him for Tom right now...

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Old 10-16-2012, 04:22 AM    (permalink
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Cmarq: I don't think your complaints about Hightower are founded in anything but your personal feelings about that pick. As Jvig points out you were quick to criticize the pick on draft day. So far Hightower has been great. The starting linebackers are great, actually. Also, how on earth does Bequette qualify as an unsuccessful draftpick? That is beyond me.

What really bothers me about this loss is the coverage on defense and Josh McDaniels. The coverage was atrocious throughout the game, and Wilson made the D-linemen miss a lot of tackles. That's the worst things I have to say about the defensive effort. Tavon Wilson got caught out of position on the final touchdown, but other than that I think he had a pretty good game. The pass interference called on Dennard in the EZ was non-existant. ******** call imo.

Josh McDaniels completely got away from what worked at the start of the game. Welker was tearing it up, and Gronk had some good catches as well. But when the protection started to break down a bit McDaniels completely abandoned what worked and started breaking the rhythm of the offense. That's what killed us on sunday. "The FG that never was" was just a terrible decision by the coaching staff. You take what you can get with six seconds left in the half. Brady trying to lob the ball over a 6'3" DB whilst targeting 5'9" Wes Welker was a bad decision as well.

Overall I feel that this game was decided by uncharacteristic mistakes by the coaching staff, uncharacteristic bad decisions by Brady and predictable, bad decisions by McDaniels. I don't think this loss means all that much tbqh. We moved the ball against a pretty great defense, and even though the interior OL was dominated at times I think this offense will be just fine. It's also worth mentioning that we have a ton of injuriezzz. When (if) this team gets healthy we'll see what they're all about. I think we're going to kill the Jets this weekend. There's no way that this team isn't going to be dominant against that bunch of obnoxious, loudmouth New Yorkers.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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It is still too early to start hitting panic buttons yet, however 3 early losses really closes the margi of error the rest of the way.

The Pats play the Texans and 49ers in consecutive weeks. It is likely they lose one of them and wouldn't be surprising if they lost both. That's 5 losses.

Sure the rest of the schedule on paper looks relatively easy, but if they make one of two more slip ups they could really be in trouble.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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This team needs some adversary. Maybe it'll wake them up.

Mark Sanchez throwing 300 on us. You taking over/under?
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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This team needs some adversary. Maybe it'll wake them up.

Mark Sanchez throwing 300 on us. You taking over/under?
Let me answer you with this little piece of information: I just picked up Chaz Schillens for my FF team...
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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hahahahahahahahahahaha touche
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
Cmarq: I don't think your complaints about Hightower are founded in anything but your personal feelings about that pick. As Jvig points out you were quick to criticize the pick on draft day. So far Hightower has been great. The starting linebackers are great, actually. Also, how on earth does Bequette qualify as an unsuccessful draftpick? That is beyond me.

What really bothers me about this loss is the coverage on defense and Josh McDaniels. The coverage was atrocious throughout the game, and Wilson made the D-linemen miss a lot of tackles. That's the worst things I have to say about the defensive effort. Tavon Wilson got caught out of position on the final touchdown, but other than that I think he had a pretty good game. The pass interference called on Dennard in the EZ was non-existant. ******** call imo.

Josh McDaniels completely got away from what worked at the start of the game. Welker was tearing it up, and Gronk had some good catches as well. But when the protection started to break down a bit McDaniels completely abandoned what worked and started breaking the rhythm of the offense. That's what killed us on sunday. "The FG that never was" was just a terrible decision by the coaching staff. You take what you can get with six seconds left in the half. Brady trying to lob the ball over a 6'3" DB whilst targeting 5'9" Wes Welker was a bad decision as well.

Overall I feel that this game was decided by uncharacteristic mistakes by the coaching staff, uncharacteristic bad decisions by Brady and predictable, bad decisions by McDaniels. I don't think this loss means all that much tbqh. We moved the ball against a pretty great defense, and even though the interior OL was dominated at times I think this offense will be just fine. It's also worth mentioning that we have a ton of injuriezzz. When (if) this team gets healthy we'll see what they're all about. I think we're going to kill the Jets this weekend. There's no way that this team isn't going to be dominant against that bunch of obnoxious, loudmouth New Yorkers.
Listen guys I really don't like being that guy, but my feelings toward the Hightower pick haven't changed. I never argued that Hightower would not be a good player for us, in fact in the draft thread I said I thought he might make some Pro Bowls for us. However, I argued at the time that they passed up some guys that did more to address what we truly needed as a team. 6 games in we have the same problems we've always had:

1) We can't cover on the outside or the deep middle
2) We don't have more than 1 guy who can rush the passer
3) We struggle to run the ball against good defenses
4) We don't throw vertical well

My main problem with the Hightower pick (as you already know) was that he didn't address any of those issues by selecting him. So far he's made some really nice plays, and you can throw back that quote I made a few weeks ago in my face if you want to, but I think it's fair to say that he hasn't really made that tangible a difference in the passing game. We're using him far more conventionally than they did at Alabama, and while he's been good at getting after the QB in spurts it's mainly from blitz packages. He's a great downhill defender, but we already have one of those guys right next to him. He's been slightly better in coverage than I anticipated, but he's still relatively unproven.

I was a huge Zeitler, Smith, and Jenkins fan. Those positions were and still are huge needs for us. Plus, they're all playing at least as well as Hightower as rookies. I think it's fair even though it's really early to reevaluate that pick a bit. The defenses of it at the time were BPA, that Dowling was going to step up, and Waters would be here so guard was a luxury pick. Well all those things didn't turn out as rosily as it looked in April. I'm actually encouraged by Tavon's play, but I don't doubt for a second that someone as polished as Smith would not have made that same mistake on Sunday.

As a fan my #1 thing I wanted over the offseason was to improve the secondary so we wouldn't see the same crap happening as last year. If Jenkins or Smith were on the team right now either of them would be our best DB. If Zeitler was here we wouldn't have Wendell starting. So while it's nice to have an athlete like Hightower we can stop the run and blitz from the LB spot just fine without him, are we better with him in? Yes, but we already had 3 run specific players in our front 7.

I think as of week 6 the results of that pick are ambiguous at best.


As far as Bequette goes it's hard to be encouraged by a guy who can't get on the field his rookie season despite being described by the coach as being a high energy, polished rush move player. We have nobody producing in front of him, and he's behind on the depth chart of an undrafted rookie. If our previous 3rd rounders are any indication things don't look good for him.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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I was a huge fan of Zeitler and Smith as well, but I didn't want Jenkins because of the character concerns. However, I was very excited when we moved up to get Hightower. He's a great athlete at the position, and he's been solid in coverage so far. The versatility and upside in this linebacking group is just ridiculous. Drafting either Jenkins or Smith wouldn't have solved our problems in the secondary. The main problem right now isn't the coverage, it's the awareness. Even when the coverage is airtight the CBs don't look back when the receiver starts to adjust for the ball. It's coachable, but it's so frustrating to look at as a fan. I believe in Ras-I Dowling. I think he can be a good boundary corner, but the injuriezzz have set him back. Dennard looks to be a good fit as well. We need to replace Chung though. He's been terrible all year. He takes bad angles and just flat out can't cover. He's the real problem in the secondary right now imo.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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I think the big issue you are having cmarq as you state is he didn't address a glaring need. However Belichick has long preached he doesn't draft for need. I can't remember the exact quote but he pretty much said if you only pick guys who fill a need then you are passing over guys with a higher value. Over a number of years this will leave you with a lesser talented squad.

I am not saying the Pats have been great drafting the last few years, in fact at times it has been awful, however the method works. Ozzie Newsome drafts off value and the Ravens have been pretty good. Ted Thompson drafts for value etc.

If nned meets value then that's great. Chandler Jones was a nice example of this. However seldom if ever is that the case.
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