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Old 10-22-2012, 12:24 PM    (permalink
Scotty D
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What's the point of doing this when we're not even halfway through the season? They can't get an outside replacement until the end of the season. Do they have someone who can fill in for the 9-10 games they have left?
The GM makes his money in the off-season. During the season they manage the roster.

The only plus to this is the new guy can start working on the draft prospects sooner but if they hire a new guy at the end of the season it doesn't help that much. But you have to think any possible GM hire is working on scouting the draft process right now. It wouldn't be tailored to the Panthers system but they are working on it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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He did pick Greg Hardy though. Probably should go straight to Canton where he belongs.

That trade up for Armanti Edwards was one of the grossest, most pathetic, yet hilarious moves I have ever seen in sports.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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So they've lost games against the Seahawks, Cowboys, Atlanta and Dallas. Did anyone think they were going to have a winning record at this point, really.

I'd be curious to know just who was pushing the Cam Newton pick and if there was any split in the ranks on that decision.

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Old 10-22-2012, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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So they've lost games against the Seahawks, Cowboys, Atlanta and Dallas. Did anyone think they were going to have a winning record at this point, really.

I'd be curious to know just who was pusing the Cam Newton pick and if there was any split in the ranks on that decision.
Good point, and even forgot a pretty good Bucs team.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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So they've lost games against the Seahawks, Cowboys, Atlanta and Dallas. Did anyone think they were going to have a winning record at this point, really.

I'd be curious to know just who was pushing the Cam Newton pick and if there was any split in the ranks on that decision.
?

Regardless, its not as simple as win/loss. There's also the issue of how we are losing ShutDwn posted a very good article earlier(its below), you should definitely read it if you want to familiarize yourself with Hurney's handling of this team;

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...competent-best

I'd be very surprised if it had anything to do with Cam Newton move. That was one thing he got right. It wasn't unanimous, but Newton was certainly regarded by many as the BPA, and we desperately needed a franchise quarterback. And if it did have to do with Newton, why would he be fired now? Newton's having a bit of a slump, but nothing bad enough, especially given his rookie year, to fire someone over. While most Panthers fans want to see Newton improve his play, almost all still see him as our quarterback of the future.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Don't forget he gave Jake Delhomme an extension after he lost the playoff game against the cards.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
So they've lost games against the Seahawks, Cowboys, Atlanta and Dallas. Did anyone think they were going to have a winning record at this point, really.

I'd be curious to know just who was pushing the Cam Newton pick and if there was any split in the ranks on that decision.
Maybe not a winning record, but you'd expect them to look decent in more than two games and maybe pull out a tough game.


Other than the Giants game, they've lost by less than a TD in every game. But they only appear close on the scoreboard. Fans have caught on because they lose the same way every time, like Newton said. It's not just bad luck, this team just can't figure out how to pull a game out. "So close, yet so far" is the Panther's slogan by now.


Hurney isn't the one calling plays or executing, but he is responsible for these last few drafts and giving money to players that Chud doesn't use. Look at the contributing players from 2009 to 2011:

2011
Cam Newton
Terrell McClain - cut this season
Sione Fua - this is a stretch to call a contributor
Brandon Hogan - injured when he was picked and still is
Kealoha Pilares - Kick off returner, occasionally catches a screen
Lawrence Wilson
Zachary Williams
Lee Ziemba


2010
Jimmy Clausen - not even active
Brandon LaFell
Armanti Edwards - amazingly still on the team
Eric Norwood
Greg Hardy
David Gettis - decent rookie year, injured ever since
Tony Pike
RJ Stanford
Robert McClain


2009
Everette Brown - is he even on a team?
Sherrod Martin- barely
Corey Irvin - cut
Mike Goodson
Tony Fiammetta
Duke Robinson
Captain Munnerlyn

Hurney did nothing to plan for this team eventually moving on from players like Delhomme, Jenkins, Moose etc..

2012's class looks good, but they are running in place because the team needs to find the players to eventually fill in for aging players like Smith and Jordan Gross.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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Blame Hurney all you want but their was so much hype around Newton and he has failed to deliver. He is a piss poor leader of a team. His post game press conferences are great comedic fodder. He sounds like a whiny *****. Just watching how Luck carries himself compared to this guy is amazing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Blame Hurney all you want but their was so much hype around Newton and he has failed to deliver. He is a piss poor leader of a team. His post game press conferences are great comedic fodder. He sounds like a whiny *****. Just watching how Luck carries himself compared to this guy is amazing.
Cam Newton has nothing to do with most of the problems that have plagued this team for years. Nice try.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Hurney is my pick for worst GM of the past decade. Just consistently awful. Can't believe it took this long.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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Blame Hurney all you want but their was so much hype around Newton and he has failed to deliver. He is a piss poor leader of a team. His post game press conferences are great comedic fodder. He sounds like a whiny *****. Just watching how Luck carries himself compared to this guy is amazing.
Andrew Luck has nothing to do with this topic, why'd you bring him up?

There are plenty of players that aren't performing well. The offensive line is falling apart, the runningbacks don't get the ball, the receivers are dropping passes(and getting in fights), the defense was leading the league in missed tackles, Gamble's on IR so they don't have a corner starting drafted earlier than the 5th round, Nakamura is on the field etc.

A whole lot of underperforming.

About the only consistent positives are CJ and now Kuechly who looks better than Beason did.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Cam Newton has nothing to do with most of the problems that have plagued this team for years. Nice try.
Is he performing this season? No I don't think so. The coaches and players have to bear some of the responsibility.

I am criticizing Newton because of how poorly he carries himself and that is part of the problem in Carolina. Just compare Luck's composure and how he carries himself to Newton. It is quite a contrast.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Hurney is my pick for worst GM of the past decade. Just consistently awful. Can't believe it took this long.
He just needed more time, and more money to spend on RBs.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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The Panthers are starting 3 (arguably 4) o-linemen that wouldn't be starting on almost any other team in the league...that is on the GM.

The team is hurt by future picks that were traded for players that didn't produce (two of which were drafted in the past 5 drafts and aren't even on the team anymore). That is on the GM.

The team has spent 5 of it's last 7 first round picks on LB's and RB's while ignoring glaring needs along both lines, WR, and corner. That is on the GM.

He's given out contracts to players that made no sense. 76 million to Charles Johnson based on one good year? 40+ to two RB's on a team where they don't combine to average more than 15 carries a game? All that money given to Jake coming off the 5 INT playoff debacle? All that, is on the GM.

Years of bad draft picks...Jimmy Clausen, Dwayne Jarrett, Terrell McClain, Everette Brown, etc.. That is on the GM.

Is Cam Newton perfect? No, he's not. I'm someone that wanted AJ Green instead of Cam (and was told that's putting the cart before the horse), but there's issues that go much deeper than Cam Newton.

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Old 10-22-2012, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Is he performing this season? No I don't think so. The coaches and players have to bear some of the responsibility.

I am criticizing Newton because of how poorly he carries himself and that is part of the problem in Carolina. Just compare Luck's composure and how he carries himself to Newton. It is quite a contrast.
Newton's still only a 2nd year QB. The problem is, Carolina's whole team is entirely too dependent on him. Newton would have had to put up an absolutely earth shattering season for them to have success this year. That's on Hurney, this last FA class was a very good one, and he should have done more to bolster the offense. You can't operate your team under the assumption that your QB is going to have an MVP season, especially one as young and raw as Newton. The defense is still a work in progress as well.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Is he performing this season? No I don't think so. The coaches and players have to bear some of the responsibility.

I am criticizing Newton because of how poorly he carries himself and that is part of the problem in Carolina. Just compare Luck's composure and how he carries himself to Newton. It is quite a contrast.
But this thread has nothing to do with Cam Newton. This is about our general manager being fired. Hurney has a laundry list of things he has ****** up that are much more pressing problems than whichever ones Newton brings, yet you completely ignored them just so you could get out a shot at Cam Newton.

If you don't like Cam Newton fine. But Hurney has damaged this team in ways that extend far beyond Newton, and Newton is largely irrelevant to the discussion of Hurney's problems, despite your best attempts to assert otherwise.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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The media has jumped all over Cam Newton and now most fans unfamiliar with Carolina have made him the whipping boy. A sophomore slump was to be expected after his historic rookie year.

Giving DeAngelo Williams that horrific contract when they had Jonathan Stewart and Mike Goodson waiting in the wings was unconscionable.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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Newton's still only a 2nd year QB. The problem is, Carolina's whole team is entirely too dependent on him. Newton would have had to put up an absolutely earth shattering season for them to have success this year. That's on Hurney, this last FA class was a very good one, and he should have done more to bolster the offense. You can't operate your team under the assumption that your QB is going to have an MVP season, especially one as young and raw as Newton. The defense is still a work in progress as well.
He had an absolute earth shattering year last year

We went 6-10
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:57 AM    (permalink
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Dudes been terrible. Shoulda been fired the moment he drafted Cam Newton.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:23 AM    (permalink
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Welp...his ultimate undoing was putting all that money into running backs. Wtf was he thinking?

And paying a good but not great DE a bunch of money. This team will improve, but it needs a good 3 year program to kickstart the rebuilding process. They're getting there, but success doesn't happen overnight.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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Housekeeping!



What a mess!

Offseason:

Release RB DeAngelo Williams ($4.75/$16.25)
Release OT Jordan Gross? ($8.7/$15.4)*
Release C Geoff Hangartner ($1.575/$4.025)
Release DT Dwan Edwards (undisclosed)
Release DT Ron Edwards ($2.15/$2.15)
Release LB Thomas Davis ($4.25/$17.25) (also $500,000/$3 option bonus)
Release CB Chris Gamble ($7.9/$18.75)

Depth Chart:

QB: Cam Newton
RB: Jonathan Stewart (trade, $1m base in '13 before '14 $9m option bonus)
RB: Tauren Poole (replace)
FB: Mike Tolbert
WR: Steve Smith ($3.75 in '13, $3m option in '14 w/ $4m base)
WR: Brandon LaFell
WR: Louis Murphy
WR: Joe Adams
TE: Greg Olsen (base guar. for '13, cap jump in '14)
TE: Gary Barnidge (replace)
LT: Bruce Campbell (replace)
LG: Amini Silatolu
C: Ryan Kalil
RG: Mike Pollak (replace?)
RT: Byron Bell (replace)

LE: Greg Hardy
DT: Frank Kearse (replace)
DT: Sione Fua (replace)
RE: Charles Johnson (possible '14 release, base jump from $6.75 to $8.75, no guar.)
WB: Luke Kuechly
MB: Jon Beason (possible '13/'14 release, base jump from $5.25 to $6.5)
SB: James Anderson (release next yr, cap jump from $2.9 to $3.9 for '14/'15)
CB: Captain Munnerlyn
CB: Josh Norman
CB: Josh Thomas
FS: Charles Godfrey ('14 release, base jump from $1.6 to $5)
SS: Haruki Nakamura

Remaining:

QB: Cam Newton
RB:
RB:
FB: Mike Tolbert
WR:
WR: Brandon LaFell
WR: Louis Murphy
WR: Joe Adams
TE:
TE:
LT:
LG: Amini Silatolu
C: Ryan Kalil
RG: Mike Pollak
RT:

LE: Greg Hardy
DT:
DT:
RE: Charles Johnson
WB: Luke Kuechly
MB:
SB:
CB:
CB: Captain Munnerlyn
CB: Josh Norman
FS:
SS:
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:53 AM    (permalink
Matthew Jones
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Toughest calls:

Steve Smith, Greg Olsen, Jordan Gross, and Chris Gamble are all good players but may not be around long enough for their team to rebuild and contend; all have large, non-guaranteed contracts. Jon Beason may just be a personal choice (slide Kuechly inside, draft a WLB for cheap, maybe too much money in the LBs.)
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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The team already having 12 mill more on the books than next years projected cap doesn't help the rebuilding effort.

If the new regime did decide to cut ways with those players, I would at least hope they would try to trade them even if they get less than what the fanbase would consider "equal value". Any draft picks would help add depth to the team, at least with a GM that unlike Hurney drafts well after the first two rounds.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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The offensive coordinator is getting a pass in all this.

Has Hurney been bad? Recently, yes, but he's also the same GM that put together a team that went to the Super Bowl (with a roster loaded with good to great players. And apparently a lot of steroids, but that's neither here nor there). He gets a lot of crap for dishing out a lot of money to those 2 RBs. Did he pay them too much? Yes. Was he wrong in resigning them both? Absolutely not. People talk about DeAngelo Williams like he's had one good season (2008). Williams has been a good player since then. Stewart has taken carries away from him so he isn't able to replicate the numbers he put up as a primary RB. But in 2008 Williams was an MVP candidate. He wasn't just good. He was phenomenal. DeAngelo Williams could go almost anywhere else in the NFL and be, at minimum, a 1,200 yard rusher. He has more than enough talent to do so.

Pairing those two running backs up behind an offensive line with Jordan Gross, Ryan Kalil and Jeff Otah? That sounded like a great way to have the best rushing offense in the NFL. Otah turned out to be a bust. That happens sometimes. It can't happen when you spend a 1st round pick on a player and give up a future 1st round pick. You have to be certain about that player if you are going to invest that much in him. So Hurney was wrong, but not in theory.

This offense, as it's currently designed, is to put all the weight on the shoulders of Cam Newton. This is basically the same exact offense he ran in college. DeAngelo Williams was on the field for 5 snaps last week? That's a problem. This read option offense kills RBs. It takes away their vision and their ability to create outside the design of the offense. Instead Williams waits for Newton to read the DE. Williams gets the ball or he doesn't based on Newtons read. If the DE maintains the edge, Williams gets the ball and dives into the line for 3 or 4 yards. There is no use for a RB of Williams talents to be in this offense. He doesn't make any reads or cuts. He isn't allowed to create. It is a complete missmanagement of personnel. I don't blame Hurney for that. That goes on the offensive coordinator. When you give an OC three very good RBs and a QB that can run the ball, you expect more than an offense that calls the same three running plays over and over again.

Eventually all this comes back to Marty Hurney. He made these moves, he paid these players more money than they were worth and he brought in an offensive coordinator that seems incapable of expanding a playbook. It's easy to have initial success in the league. It's easy to catch a league by storm. That's what this offense did last season. They aren't surprising anyone anymore. They have to make adjustments. They are not making any adjustments. A lot is going wrong all at once, but this has been in the process of happening for several years coming.

Ron Riveria looks dumbfounded. On the sidelines and in post game interviews / press conferences. I watch him at the podium and his answers aren't even answers. When your leader can't tell you why you're losing games, then he isn't a leader. "I don't know what's wrong. I don't know if its leadership or play calling, but something needs to change..." You don't answer questions like that. You're 1-5, you should be able to rattle off a list of reasons why you aren't winning games. Not only do they have a roster devoid of talent, but the coaches Hurney has hired are just as bad, maybe more so than the roster management.

Hurney deserved to be fired a couple years ago, especially with how the John Fox debacle was handled. But the coaches he has hired have failed him miserably. To completely ignore your strengths from an offensive perspective the way they have is unbelievable for an NFL coaching staff. This team needs to be completely torn down and start over. I'd consider trading Cam Newton. If you can get a Kings Ransom, then I think you consider it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
Hurney deserved to be fired a couple years ago, especially with how the John Fox debacle was handled. But the coaches he has hired have failed him miserably. To completely ignore your strengths from an offensive perspective the way they have is unbelievable for an NFL coaching staff. This team needs to be completely torn down and start over. I'd consider trading Cam Newton. If you can get a Kings ransom then I think you consider it.


Your post was pretty reasonable up until those last two sentences.

Why would we ever trade our franchise quarterback after only two years? A franchise quarterback who has all the tools to be one of the premier players in the entire league? You can't succeed without good quarterback play, and you're suggesting giving away one of the few good, young players we have at the most important position on the field. All that we would be doing is trading one franchise quarterback who we know what we can expect from and somehow acquiring another franchise quarterback who we have no idea what to expect from him. He doesn't have a monster deal, he's shown great potential, there is simply no reason to get rid of him. This team needs to be built around Cam Newton, not built without Cam Newton.
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