Dallas Cowboys Discussion - Page 1136

D-Unit · 10-24-2012, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Lee to IR.

Signed Ernie Sims to replace him.

Ernie Sims??? haha wow... What happened? Dat Nyguen didn't answer his phone? lol

D-Unit · 10-24-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor

At least we signed a capable FS so we won't see Frampton aside from special teams...

Wonder if this is also a signal of intent to use McCray as the "Barry Church" linebacker in the nickel on passing situations. This is a killer blow however Rob may be able to scheme out some of the impact. Connor can play the run and hopefully not get exposed in the passing game. :/

Hmmm Peprah? Could've been worse. Why was he a FA, I wonder? I thought he was pretty good at GB... at least from an outsiders perspective.

McCray at LB on passing downs should at least alleviate some of Connor's woes in that area. Thing about McCray that you gotta love is his open field tackling. Dude gets the job done without letting guys past him.

LonghornsLegend · 10-24-2012, 03:59 PM

It's an odd fit too, he's never even played in a 3-4. So unless it's a special teams pick up who knows. At least the Dan Conner pick-up is that much better looking.

bigbluedefense · 10-24-2012, 04:11 PM

That doesn't matter. It's all about gaps. 3-4, 4-3, it's not all that different. Rob doesn't 2 gap a lot. Experience in the front doesn't matter. I thought Daryl Washington was an awful fit for a 3-4 defense and he's become one of the better ILBs in the league.

D-Unit · 10-24-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

That doesn't matter. It's all about gaps. 3-4, 4-3, it's not all that different. Rob doesn't 2 gap a lot. Experience in the front doesn't matter. I thought Daryl Washington was an awful fit for a 3-4 defense and he's become one of the better ILBs in the league.

Yup when we drafted Bruce Carter I was like waaaaaa??? lol.

Taught me a thing... with this fancy passing league now days, you need a base front 7 with LBs who can cover. The old days of big thumper 3-4 ILBs are going away. Nothing sucks more than when offenses spread out with a pass look, force you to go into your nickel package only to end up running on you for a huge gain. You gotta be able to stay in your base and still get the job done whether run or pass.

TheFinisher · 10-24-2012, 10:07 PM

Ernie Sims? That's a blast from the past for me, I thought he was gonna be the next Derrick Brooks. Was a HUGE fan during his FSU days.

Can't expect much, but the guy does have the physical ability to be a contributor... especially in Rob's D. Who knows, maybe staring retirement in the face at 27 motivated him.

thule · 10-25-2012, 10:18 AM

Ernie Sims strengths are all of Connors weaknesses...so I think this is a signing to protect the middle against the pass. Connor just doesn't have the ability to cover the middle...and we aren't going to mess around with another Bradie James/Brooking in the middle of the field trying to cover on 3rd and long. Hopefully he can give us a little value in passing situations.

leroyisgod · 10-25-2012, 10:30 AM

I'm only popping in real quick because I decided to stay away from the board for a few weeks. I wanted to say this and leave.

COWBOYS WILL WIN ON SUNDAY!!!

Cya guys later!!!

D-Unit · 10-25-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thule

Ernie Sims strengths are all of Connors weaknesses...so I think this is a signing to protect the middle against the pass. Connor just doesn't have the ability to cover the middle...and we aren't going to mess around with another Bradie James/Brooking in the middle of the field trying to cover on 3rd and long. Hopefully he can give us a little value in passing situations.

I really don't get what that avatar is all about.

D-Unit · 10-25-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leroyisgod

I'm only popping in real quick because I decided to stay away from the board for a few weeks. I wanted to say this and leave.

COWBOYS WILL WIN ON SUNDAY!!!

Cya guys later!!!

I hope so!

Honestly, I feel better about beating ATL than I do about beating the Giants.

D-Unit · 10-25-2012, 01:40 PM

Neat article about Vickers.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/d...-giants-102412

Witten4HOF · 10-25-2012, 07:16 PM

Anyone expect more 4-3 looks with Sims on board? He is a natural Will in a 4-3 and Connor has the ability to play mike. Brent and Ratliff look like a formidable NT/ 3tech combo inside while Ware/Spencer can pin their ears back and rush. I'm not sure if it would throw a wrench in Carter's development by giving him a heavy does of Sam in a different front but he certainly has the athleticism to carry tight ends in coverage.

D-Unit · 10-25-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witten4HOF

Anyone expect more 4-3 looks with Sims on board? He is a natural Will in a 4-3 and Connor has the ability to play mike. Brent and Ratliff look like a formidable NT/ 3tech combo inside while Ware/Spencer can pin their ears back and rush. I'm not sure if it would throw a wrench in Carter's development by giving him a heavy does of Sam in a different front but he certainly has the athleticism to carry tight ends in coverage.

That's an excellent point. I think we can expect to see some more of it. I'm almost certain we already started that with the return of Ratliff. Since we have seen Ratliff and Brent on the field together at times... unless I'm mistaken.

pocketaces · 10-25-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witten4HOF

Anyone expect more 4-3 looks with Sims on board? He is a natural Will in a 4-3 and Connor has the ability to play mike. Brent and Ratliff look like a formidable NT/ 3tech combo inside while Ware/Spencer can pin their ears back and rush. I'm not sure if it would throw a wrench in Carter's development by giving him a heavy does of Sam in a different front but he certainly has the athleticism to carry tight ends in coverage.

If Sims sees the field we are in trouble. From BTB...

Ernie Sims 2008 2009 2010 2011
Grade -45.8 -18.0 -16.2 -21.4
Rank 55/55 54/54, 39/41 44/45

Despite being a high draft pick for Matt Millen and the Lions, he has bounced around the NFL quite a bit since 2006. His PFF grades are atrocious, and he has ranked at very bottom of the PFF rankings for four successive years. To put these grades into context, in their final, terrible 2011 season, Keith Brooking and Bradie James had a -11.1 and -7.9 grade for the season respectively. On the surface, this does not look like a player who will help the Cowboys on defense; let's hope they brought him in only for special teams.

Just because hes a Cowboy now, doesnt bring him up to even being close to average. This dude is a BUST if ever there was one.

MetSox17 · 10-26-2012, 03:05 AM

What's the sample size on those numbers for Sims, though?

Macarthur · 10-26-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witten4HOF

Anyone expect more 4-3 looks with Sims on board? He is a natural Will in a 4-3 and Connor has the ability to play mike. Brent and Ratliff look like a formidable NT/ 3tech combo inside while Ware/Spencer can pin their ears back and rush. I'm not sure if it would throw a wrench in Carter's development by giving him a heavy does of Sam in a different front but he certainly has the athleticism to carry tight ends in coverage.

I don't pretend to be an expert at the X's & O's, but I've always understood that the ILB in a 3-4 is a position that you don't really need playmakers. I would think if that position has become weaker, you would want to stay in a 3-4 to mask that instead of moving to a 4-3 where your LBer weakness will be magnified.

Someone educate me if I'm wrong.

Witten4HOF · 10-26-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macarthur

I don't pretend to be an expert at the X's & O's, but I've always understood that the ILB in a 3-4 is a position that you don't really need playmakers. I would think if that position has become weaker, you would want to stay in a 3-4 to mask that instead of moving to a 4-3 where your LBer weakness will be magnified.

Someone educate me if I'm wrong.

Every team clearly designs there scheme based on strengths point in hand Ratliff is not a traditional 3-4 NT but Ryan designs plays to allow him to shoot a single gap rather then maintain two but I have never hear that logic about the ILB.

Essentially the 3-4 employs three space eating down lineman to occupy the o-line. This leaves the outside linebackers as the primary pass rushers and leaves them the flexibility to move around in a two point stance to disguise where the rush is coming from. On the inside the linebackers are tasked with filling holes and pursuit against the run. Also they carry a lot of the coverage responsibilities of the backs and tight ends.

If you don't have a good set of ILB the scheme really can't be successful and that showed last year with Bradie and Brookings. Both had lost a step when trying to cover and weren't quick enough to close in on runners coming out of the backfield. Connor brings the same problem in coverage, he showed in preseason that he simply can not cover athletic players down field.
That trickles down the line, forcing the safeties to take on more man coverage and leaving the corners on an island.

In a 4-3 the outside linebackers are responsible for most of the coverages. Sims and Carters strengths are their speed which should put the team in a favorable position. The Mike in a 4-3 (which would be Connor) is designated to fill gaps and some short zones in the middle. Spencer and Ware would have their hand in the ground but basically have the same responsibilities, while the emergence of Brent might be able to free up Ratliff on more single blocks on the inside.

Problems that might arise, Sims is coming off the street and as Pocketaces pointed out he has been less then stellar the last couple of years. Also, in the 4-3 it is harder to disguise who is rushing. There would also be an abundance of big bodies that may not be able to be used. Lisse can probably spell Ratliff and Coleman would be a decent fill in for Brent but that leaves Spears and Hatcher riding the pine. Both can play some jumbo end on the strong side but that would only be in short yardage situations.

D-Unit · 10-26-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macarthur

I don't pretend to be an expert at the X's & O's, but I've always understood that the ILB in a 3-4 is a position that you don't really need playmakers. I would think if that position has become weaker, you would want to stay in a 3-4 to mask that instead of moving to a 4-3 where your LBer weakness will be magnified.

Someone educate me if I'm wrong.

I would say not quite... 3-4 ILBs are expected to be bigger playmakers because generally the 3-4 D-Linemen are big space eating beheamoths who try to occupy multiple blockers. It's the job of the ILBs to shoot the gaps and make plays on the ball. Whereas in the 4-3, DL are more responsible for making plays on the ball . Obviously, it'd be great for your 3-4 DL to be playmakers...the more the merrier, right? But they aren't normally designed for that. For example, that's why sacks are more important to 4-3 DL than 3-4 DL... and more important for 3-4 OLBs than 4-3 OLBs. It's also why traditionally you want bigger ILBs in the 3-4 because they have to be good run thumpers. But these days you know... you can't just have a 3-4 ILB that are built to stuff the run, you need them to drop back too. So we're starting to see smaller, more quicker bodied types. Trying to keep up with this evolving passing game, it makes sense... and I'm glad to see us doing it.

Others might be able to explain it better, but at least that's my quick take.

D-Unit · 10-26-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witten4HOF

Every team clearly designs there scheme based on strengths point in hand Ratliff is not a traditional 3-4 NT but Ryan designs plays to allow him to shoot a single gap rather then maintain two but I have never hear that logic about the ILB.

Essentially the 3-4 employs three space eating down lineman to occupy the o-line. This leaves the outside linebackers as the primary pass rushers and leaves them the flexibility to move around in a two point stance to disguise where the rush is coming from. On the inside the linebackers are tasked with filling holes and pursuit against the run. Also they carry a lot of the coverage responsibilities of the backs and tight ends.

If you don't have a good set of ILB the scheme really can't be successful and that showed last year with Bradie and Brookings. Both had lost a step when trying to cover and weren't quick enough to close in on runners coming out of the backfield. Connor brings the same problem in coverage, he showed in preseason that he simply can not cover athletic players down field.
That trickles down the line, forcing the safeties to take on more man coverage and leaving the corners on an island.

In a 4-3 the outside linebackers are responsible for most of the coverages. Sims and Carters strengths are their speed which should put the team in a favorable position. The Mike in a 4-3 (which would be Connor) is designated to fill gaps and some short zones in the middle. Spencer and Ware would have their hand in the ground but basically have the same responsibilities, while the emergence of Brent might be able to free up Ratliff on more single blocks on the inside.

Problems that might arise, Sims is coming off the street and as Pocketaces pointed out he has been less then stellar the last couple of years. Also, in the 4-3 it is harder to disguise who is rushing. There would also be an abundance of big bodies that may not be able to be used. Lisse can probably spell Ratliff and Coleman would be a decent fill in for Brent but that leaves Spears and Hatcher riding the pine. Both can play some jumbo end on the strong side but that would only be in short yardage situations.

MUCH BETTER SAID!

D-Unit · 10-26-2012, 03:48 PM

Well we gave Barry Church a nice sized extension even though he's out for the year.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tract/1661309/

The Cowboys and Church reached agreement on a contract extension through the 2016 NFL season Friday worth a total of $12.4 million with $3.9 million guaranteed, according to a person informed of the details of the contract.

Rob Ryan:

"This guy and all you guys saw it, he's going to be a superstar in this league," Cowboys defensive coordinator Rob Ryan told reporters Friday, per the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "You get a guy early, and he comes out of that injury healthy and this guy is going to be a fantastic safety so it's real unfortunate, I think I shed a few tears on that one when we lost him for the year. I think it's one of those things you do have to get over, but it's fantastic for the Cowboys organization and hopefully I can be a part of his career for a long time."

------------------

I'm telling myself to have faith in Rob Ryan here.

Witten4HOF · 10-26-2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Well we gave Barry Church a nice sized extension even though he's out for the year.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tract/1661309/

The Cowboys and Church reached agreement on a contract extension through the 2016 NFL season Friday worth a total of $12.4 million with $3.9 million guaranteed, according to a person informed of the details of the contract.

Rob Ryan:

"This guy and all you guys saw it, he's going to be a superstar in this league," Cowboys defensive coordinator Rob Ryan told reporters Friday, per the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "You get a guy early, and he comes out of that injury healthy and this guy is going to be a fantastic safety so it's real unfortunate, I think I shed a few tears on that one when we lost him for the year. I think it's one of those things you do have to get over, but it's fantastic for the Cowboys organization and hopefully I can be a part of his career for a long time."

------------------

I'm telling myself to have faith in Rob Ryan here.

Well I guess that means we aren't going to try and upgrade in the offseason. Hopefully this means we will try to add to the guys in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

I'm hoping for Jonathan Jenkins from Georgia. 6'3 355lbs of pure unadulterated bull rush to clog up the middle and let Lee and Carter run wild.

Macarthur · 10-26-2012, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Well we gave Barry Church a nice sized extension even though he's out for the year.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tract/1661309/

The Cowboys and Church reached agreement on a contract extension through the 2016 NFL season Friday worth a total of $12.4 million with $3.9 million guaranteed, according to a person informed of the details of the contract.

Rob Ryan:

"This guy and all you guys saw it, he's going to be a superstar in this league," Cowboys defensive coordinator Rob Ryan told reporters Friday, per the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "You get a guy early, and he comes out of that injury healthy and this guy is going to be a fantastic safety so it's real unfortunate, I think I shed a few tears on that one when we lost him for the year. I think it's one of those things you do have to get over, but it's fantastic for the Cowboys organization and hopefully I can be a part of his career for a long time."

------------------

I'm telling myself to have faith in Rob Ryan here.

I think this tells you how difficult it is to find guys that can play a competent safety in this league. Safety play is not good across the league.

E-Man · 10-26-2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Well we gave Barry Church a nice sized extension even though he's out for the year.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tract/1661309/

The Cowboys and Church reached agreement on a contract extension through the 2016 NFL season Friday worth a total of $12.4 million with $3.9 million guaranteed, according to a person informed of the details of the contract.

Rob Ryan:

"This guy and all you guys saw it, he's going to be a superstar in this league," Cowboys defensive coordinator Rob Ryan told reporters Friday, per the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "You get a guy early, and he comes out of that injury healthy and this guy is going to be a fantastic safety so it's real unfortunate, I think I shed a few tears on that one when we lost him for the year. I think it's one of those things you do have to get over, but it's fantastic for the Cowboys organization and hopefully I can be a part of his career for a long time."

------------------

I'm telling myself to have faith in Rob Ryan here.

I like Church, but this doesn't make much sense. He looked like he could play well as a starter before going down, but that's not enough game time to tell if he's a long term answer the way that extension leads me to believe they think he is. Maybe it's because they don't think the FA group next year will be good enough to replace what they have and they'll draft a safety high or something.

On a side note I was thinking about how good the Cowboys' linebackers were when together this year. People were looking at Bruce and Lee being a tandem that could be considered one of the best ILB teams in the league, but look at the outside too. Ware is DeMarcus ******* Ware. Spencer is finally being appreciated a bit, and is playing very well too. Of the many things to complain about this year linebacker isn't one of them except when they're not healthy...which will happen with Lee now. *cries*

FreshBoy! · 10-26-2012, 07:05 PM

I don't understand the hoopla about the Church contract, seems pretty cheap, they were discussing it prior to his injury, and Dallas has shown that they're willing to sign young players and draft the same position(scandrick/claiborne).

Timing is odd, but 9 million with 3 guaranteed is peanuts if they think he's starter material....and it doesn't preclude us from drafting a safety this offseason.

D-Unit · 10-26-2012, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshBoy!

I don't understand the hoopla about the Church contract, seems pretty cheap, they were discussing it prior to his injury, and Dallas has shown that they're willing to sign young players and draft the same position(scandrick/claiborne).

Timing is odd, but 9 million with 3 guaranteed is peanuts if they think he's starter material....and it doesn't preclude us from drafting a safety this offseason.

Why would you say that? I read about Church's extension and I said "Bye Bye Eric Reid." So now we have both Sensy and Church with long term deals. If we draft someone, it won't be a first or second rounder.

So our solutions to creating more turnovers won't be coming in from an upgrade in talent. Just from the guys already on the team. So that's kind of disappointing. I really think we are in need of playmaking safeties who are ballhawks and can break on the ball and create turnovers. I don't see that with Church and Sensy. They are good containment Safeties who tackle well, but I was hoping for more. *shrugs*

True the contract isn't backbreaking, but it does provide a mediocre roadblock.

Congrats to Church for getting his deal done. Especially in a year where he never even suited up. Wow. That's impressive. I don't know what our FO was really thinking there. I think we outbid ourselves on that one.