Is Jarvis Jones a Von Miller Clone???

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

I've never seen so much jawing over a prospect many already consider one of the top 5 defenders available in the 2013 draft!lol

Lol that's the thing though. I don't think anyone here is saying he's not a great prospect. What my point has been is he is not a great prospect simply because he plays and produces in the SEC. I used the above plays because I had easy access to them. Through all the plays it shows strengths and weaknesses (more strengths I will state).

[Witten4HOF]

This thread has gone from comparing two players to complete personal attacks on scouting ability. Bottom line everyone is entitled to their opinions about what they see. Personally I don't think Von is a good comparison Jarvis, I think everyone agrees he is a very good prospect and a lock for the top half of round one.

- While Jarvis is a very good athlete he does not have the natural explosion and top end speed that Von uses to get off the snap and close on the ball. That isn't a knock on Jones but a credit to how rare of an athlete Miller was coming into the league.

- I would say Jarvis has an edge in functional strength at the same point of their maturation. That being said neither player is going to be in a favorable position against a 300+ lb lineman once engaged or in a phone booth.

-Both players have active hands in pass rush situations but Miller had the ability to set up moves and counter with his hand fighting while Jones essentially uses his hands to disengage from either the bull or speed rush almost exclusively.

- I think Jones has a better nose for finding the ball and as said earlier finds himself making plays out of his area. Doesn't quit on plays and is very good at finding the ball in pursuit. He isn't great at setting the edge and isn't a strongside player in any scheme day one. Von is a guy you want attacking the LOS more times with not, while Jarvis appears comfortable dropping into zone coverage and can eventually be an asset in that department with continued work.

One thing I worry about with Jarvis is how he pass rushes. At this point he uses his physical gifts to get to the QB and hasn't been forced to refine his technique. He tends to stay vertical more times then not when attacking a tackles outside shoulder rather then displaying a natural bend that is coveted in elite rushers. Not saying that he doesn't have it but he needs to arch at the next level to maintain his acceleration when rounding out a rush lane and it also give less surface space for Lineman to latch onto.

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I really think a lot of the draft story on Jones is going to come down to the combine doctors eval on his neck.

Player comparisons aside, that worries me.

It's good to see I'm not the only person on the planet who seems to be concerned with the spinal stenosis diagnosis.

Top prospects drop all of the time because of their injury history, but spinal stenosis is virtually guaranteed to shorten his career. If Southern Cal's doctors wouldn't clear him to play, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of teams take him right off their draft boards after having their doctors evaluate him.

[PossibleCabbage]

Originally Posted by Legacy

It's good to see I'm not the only person on the planet who seems to be concerned with the spinal stenosis diagnosis.

Top prospects drop all of the time because of their injury history, but spinal stenosis is virtually guaranteed to shorten his career. If Southern Cal's doctors wouldn't clear him to play, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of teams take him right off their draft boards after having their doctors evaluate him.

Plus, I mean, spinal stenosis virtually guarantees that the first neck injury he has is career ending.

In fact, players with no prior history of spinal stenosis sometimes have their first neck injury be career ending because they develop spinal stenosis after the injury (e.g. Nick Collins.)

I'm not sure if teams will "take him off their board" for this, but I imagine he could get bad medical grades that cause him to slip like DaQuan Bowers did. The key difference is that no matter how bad Bowers' knees are, they won't lead to him being paralyzed at 27 years old.

Just the human calculation of "would I put this guy on the field if he was my kid" is going to work against him with that condition.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Well, with the new rookie salary cap, it's not like his first NFL team is going to be on the hook for $30+mil guaranteed money for taking Jones top 5.

We're talking about narrowing of the spinal column?? Potential paralysis??
You would think there would be some kind of procedure Jarvis could undergo to lessen his risk for a life altering injury from playing football.

Wasn't this the reason UGA OLB Pollack retired early from the Bengals??

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Well, with the new rookie salary cap, it's not like his first NFL team is going to be on the hook for $30+mil guaranteed money for taking Jones top 5.

We're talking about narrowing of the spinal column?? Potential paralysis??
You would think there would be some kind of procedure Jarvis could undergo to lessen his risk for a life altering injury from playing football.

Wasn't this the reason UGA OLB Pollack retired early from the Bengals??

I am not sure whether David Pollack has spinal stenosis, but it is the reason Marcus McNeill retired.

The wage scale doesn't really factor into this, at least in my opinion. You draft players in the top of the first round expecting that they'll be cornerstone players for your franchise for at least a decade. While some don't work out on the field, the risk with Jones is compounded by the fact that this condition means it'll probably be a miracle if he's able to play in the NFL for 10 years.

[DraftSwag]

Originally Posted by njx9

*shrug* i'm pretty sure you're not even looking.

Lets debate.

Just watched the tape and it's actually impressive and shows his versatility. Not only does he show that he can take on blockers, but the thing that I noticed the most about him is his balance and his ability to change direction when he is engaged. He has relentless pursuit to the football and I completely agree that this guy can play Inside Linebacker. Look how comfortable he is when he drops back into coverage. The dude looks like he's always trying to make a play. Look at the bounce he has and how he's always on his toes. If this guy is a All Pro at OT then Jarvis is gonna be a stud. Another thing that separates Jarvis from lot's of guys I've seen that get hyped up is that he is disciplined. He doesn't just pull his ears back and rush the passer. There is one play where he just blows up the tackle and pushes him back 3 yards. Those are the type of things evaluators look for and to add insult to injury I saw two sacks on that brief highlight????? What's your point.

[njx9]

my point is that with enough prompting, even you can actually watch film and try to break it down. if only we hadn't wasted so much time with stats and sec earlier.

[DraftSwag]

Originally Posted by njx9

my point is that with enough prompting, even you can actually watch film and try to break it down. if only we hadn't wasted so much time with stats and sec earlier.

Lol. I wanna hear your break down, that took me exactly 5 minutes. I forgot guys like you it takes a whole year.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by DraftSwag

Lol. I wanna hear your break down, that took me exactly 5 minutes. I forgot guys like you it takes a whole year.

i don't know why you still think my breakdown of him is an issue. have you not read anything i've posted so far in the thread?

[DraftSwag]

Originally Posted by njx9

i don't know why you still think my breakdown of him is an issue. have you not read anything i've posted so far in the thread?

It's funny how you always have something smart to say, but when I come at your neck you run away like Urban Meyer. You know what we call guys like you in football. "Pile Jumpers"

[njx9]

Originally Posted by DraftSwag

It's funny how you always have something smart to say, but when I come at your neck you run away like Urban Meyer. You know what we call guys like you in football. "Pile Jumpers"

i disliked your analysis and told you why. i'm still not sure why you think i disagree about jones being a good player.

[descendency]

Von Miller, from my eyes, was a rare type of guy. Either he was going to be good in the NFL because he had talents that weren't shown off as well in college as they could have been OR he was going to fail miserably because he was getting by on the best first step(s) ever against some pretty ****** college OTs.

Jarvis Jones is explosive off the edge, but no one has Miller's first steps - at least in college.

Jones seems to be a more holistic LB prospect with less upside.

[TitanHope]

Originally Posted by descendency

Jones seems to be a more holistic LB prospect with less upside.

He does have a great energy about him. He probably uses incense.

[jCut]

Originally Posted by Thecollegedropout

Miller's the more explosive pass rusher but Jarvis Jones brings more to run stopping and is more of a complete player.

Are you referring to Von Miller as a prospect or Von Miller as he's currently constituted? A common misconception is that he is a pass rusher first and foremost, but he's actually a terrific run-stuffer and the most complete OLB in the game.

[Iamcanadian]

Miller is special and Jarvis may come close but Jarvis's injury history may limit his ceiling and drop him a bit on draft boards. I still think he goes top 5.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

Miller is special and Jarvis may come close but Jarvis's injury history may limit his ceiling and drop him a bit on draft boards. I still think he goes top 5.

Seriously? I DO NOT understand who would take him in the top 5. This guy screams "Aaron Curry 2.0" to me if he goes that high.

[Caulibflower]

The red flag, for me, is pretty simple - this is a guy whose college accolades come from, probably more than anything, his sack totals, but prevailing opinion is that people don't expect him to be a dominating NFL pass rusher. WHY, then, do you pick him 5th overall? Because he's "good" at everything else? That's what the second round is for.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

Seriously? I DO NOT understand who would take him in the top 5. This guy screams "Aaron Curry 2.0" to me if he goes that high.

I cannot agree. Jarvis is having a super season, Curry only went high because it was a terrible draft year, Jarvis is getting the hype in a solid draft year.
Jarvis has taken his game to the next level but I'm not saying he is as good as Miller but he's very talented.

[PossibleCabbage]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

Seriously? I DO NOT understand who would take him in the top 5. This guy screams "Aaron Curry 2.0" to me if he goes that high.

Well, the reason Curry didn't live up to his draft status is that he's absolutely worthless at rushing the passer and he was a step slow at the read and react stuff.

Jarvis Jones can at least rush the passer.

[Caulibflower]

Also, I'm going to do some more research on him, because at this point it seems like Jarvis Jones might be that guy who I failed to like for some reason while a lot of other people are really high on him, and the fun of a draft forum is figuring all that out. I've seen the every-snaps vs. Mizzou and Vanderbilt without being blown away. This guy's got nothing on Mychal Kendricks' game last year except for being bigger. Slower, doesn't blitz as well. But hey, he's listed at 6'3", which is top-5 linebacker size.

Ok. I'm (Edit, in light of the following post - almost) done for now.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

I cannot agree. Jarvis is having a super season, Curry only went high because it was a terrible draft year, Jarvis is getting the hype in a solid draft year.
Jarvis has taken his game to the next level but I'm not saying he is as good as Miller but he's very talented.

Let's just forget the Miller comparisons for a minute, because that seems to be the primary basis for calling him a top-5 pick. Let's forget the Curry comparison, too, because obviously that's me saying I don't think he should be a top-5 pick. Point by point:

Yes, Jarvis is having a super season
Sure, Curry might've been overdrafted due to a weak class,
The hype is basically my concern. EVERYONE knows Jones is putting up the numbers.

Full disclosure - I wasn't a huge Von Miller fan before the draft. I thought the one-trick pony label was deserved, since everyone knew the team which drafted Von at the top of the draft would be drafting him for his pass rush ability. Of course, he destroyed the combine and basically worked out so well that no GM would feel foolish taking him. No guarantee Jones works out that well. The difference between the people applauding the Broncos for taking Von and the Seahawks being booed for taking Bruce Irvin is the differences in their overall game - Miller doesn't have to come off the field, while Irvin mostly rotates in to rush the passer. But both were drafted for the rush ability, and it's their rush ability which has made the impact for their respective teams. Now, Von Miller is surely a superior NFL player to Bruce Irvin, and I just want to get that out of the way because it is far from my point - Clearly, college sack totals do not necessarily carry over to NFL production, so GMs are looking at other traits when they decide who they're going to spend premium picks on. Watching Jones' tape, I don't see the kind of pass-rushing ability of either Miller or Irvin. Jone's is not a pure rusher in that mold, which is a mold NFL GMs will take a chance on - see Irvin.

So you can say Jones is just as good at other aspects of his game as Miller, but that's failing to grasp how valuable Miller's pass rush ability is, and also how rare, and how coveted - Miller was drafted at the top of the draft for his pass rush. I bring up Irvin, who hardly plays the run at all, just to illustrate how little a player's ability to go against the run measures against pass rush ability. Both of these guys were drafted as pass rushers, with Von going higher because he was more versatile. You don't say "Jones is versatile like Von Miller so he should go top-5." Again - Miller's main attribute that scouts paid attention to was his rare pass-rushing ability; that's what boosted his stock. If I'm saying I think Jones gets blocked too easily and a lot of his sacks and TFLs are essentially cleanup plays, and therefore his ability to penetrate into the backfield and disrupt games by himself is not his best trait... we're not talking about him having a top-5 trait. What does he do that puts him at the top of the draft? I could name pages of solid players who've played for a decade, who've been solid starters and maybe even have a great season or two in there which resulted in a Pro Bowl nod, who I absolutely would not have taken with a top-5 pick in retrospect. You wouldn't want to draft Adalius Thomas 5th overall, would you? It's no insult of a comparison, either.

[Caulibflower]

But really, in this thread, the title is the point - "Is Jarvis Jones a Von Miller clone?"

In other words, are teams essentially getting a second chance to draft Von Miller? It's a nice compliment to Jones, but the answer I think is pretty clearly "no." They're playing styles have some pretty significant differences, and those differences surely affect their draft value.

[JHL6719]

The Von Miller comparison is irrelevant. Jones is going to be a top 10 pick (possibly top 5) because he's a good player who deserves to be drafted that high.

Secondly, you say his college accolades come from his sack totals more than anything, but it couldn't be further from the truth. It's his PLAYMAKING ABILITY that is special. Forcing timely fumbles, dominating games while playing hurt, and changing the momentum of games in UGA's favor when somebody has to step up and make a play. He does it over and over and over again.

I have no idea what you're doing on Saturdays when Jarvis Jones is playing, but it's obviously not watching him.

It's the plays that he effects that don't show up on the stat sheet that make him a good player. You can go back to the safety on Jeff Scott just this past Saturday.... Jones allowed that play happen, but will show up nowhere on the stat sheet.

Mychal Kendricks is apples and oranges and doesn't even play the same position. He wasn't lining up on the edge forced to beat offensive tackles on a down to down basis to make plays. He just played close to the line of scrimmage and blitzed gaps.

I mean if you're not impressed then you're just not impressed, so be it. He'll get drafted for HIS talent and what HE does on the football field... not Von Miller.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by JHL6719

The Von Miller comparison is irrelevant. Jones is going to be a top 10 pick (possibly top 5) because he's a good player who deserves to be drafted that high.

Well... why?

Secondly, you say his college accolades come from his sack totals more than anything, but it couldn't be further from the truth. It's his PLAYMAKING ABILITY that is special. Forcing timely fumbles, dominating games while playing hurt, and changing the momentum of games in UGA's favor when somebody has to step up and make a play. He does it over and over and over again.

Oh. You mean like Aaron Curry, or ANY OTHER CELEBRATED COLLEGIATE PLAYER.

I have no idea what you're doing on Saturdays when Jarvis Jones is playing, but it's obviously not watching him.

I've watched him other days than Saturday? On my laptop?

It's the plays that he effects that don't show up on the stat sheet that make him a good player. You can go back to the safety on Jeff Scott just this past Saturday.... Jones allowed that play happen, but will show up nowhere on the stat sheet.

Credit where it's due - this is the kind of thing which is relevant, but has been lacking in this conversation, which has more or less been an exercise in the apologetics of Jarvis Jones' pass-rushing ability.

Mychal Kendricks is apples and oranges and doesn't even play the same position. He wasn't lining up on the edge forced to beat offensive tackles on a down to down basis to make plays. He just played close to the line of scrimmage and blitzed gaps.

It's all apples and oranges when it comes down to it; I was just talking about their blitzing style. Kendricks seemed to play a more attacking style, while Jones' style is more read-react. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it shows up on tape, too - I mean, if a guy's reading and reacting and getting sacks, he's doing a great job, but when you're evaluating what a guy can do for your NFL team, a player who's getting sacks on the attack looks a little different. This could really be a question of positional value, too, because nowhere in here am I saying Jones can't start in the NFL or be an excellent player, I'm questioning if you take him that high in the draft. I mean, I'm not saying he "doesn't attack on the blitz" or anything like that, so let's not go there, either; I'm talking about tendencies, what these players individually excel at, and where that fits them into the mix. More than anything, I'm wondering who you'd be passing on to take him that high, and I have the feeling that at 5 you could do better than a disciplined, reliable outside linebacker.

I mean if you're not impressed then you're just not impressed, so be it. He'll get drafted for HIS talent and what HE does on the football field... not Von Miller.

And we're in agreement.