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Old 11-05-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Miller's the more explosive pass rusher but Jarvis Jones brings more to run stopping and is more of a complete player.
Are you referring to Von Miller as a prospect or Von Miller as he's currently constituted? A common misconception is that he is a pass rusher first and foremost, but he's actually a terrific run-stuffer and the most complete OLB in the game.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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Miller is special and Jarvis may come close but Jarvis's injury history may limit his ceiling and drop him a bit on draft boards. I still think he goes top 5.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Miller is special and Jarvis may come close but Jarvis's injury history may limit his ceiling and drop him a bit on draft boards. I still think he goes top 5.
Seriously? I DO NOT understand who would take him in the top 5. This guy screams "Aaron Curry 2.0" to me if he goes that high.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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The red flag, for me, is pretty simple - this is a guy whose college accolades come from, probably more than anything, his sack totals, but prevailing opinion is that people don't expect him to be a dominating NFL pass rusher. WHY, then, do you pick him 5th overall? Because he's "good" at everything else? That's what the second round is for.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? I DO NOT understand who would take him in the top 5. This guy screams "Aaron Curry 2.0" to me if he goes that high.
I cannot agree. Jarvis is having a super season, Curry only went high because it was a terrible draft year, Jarvis is getting the hype in a solid draft year.
Jarvis has taken his game to the next level but I'm not saying he is as good as Miller but he's very talented.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? I DO NOT understand who would take him in the top 5. This guy screams "Aaron Curry 2.0" to me if he goes that high.
Well, the reason Curry didn't live up to his draft status is that he's absolutely worthless at rushing the passer and he was a step slow at the read and react stuff.

Jarvis Jones can at least rush the passer.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Also, I'm going to do some more research on him, because at this point it seems like Jarvis Jones might be that guy who I failed to like for some reason while a lot of other people are really high on him, and the fun of a draft forum is figuring all that out. I've seen the every-snaps vs. Mizzou and Vanderbilt without being blown away. This guy's got nothing on Mychal Kendricks' game last year except for being bigger. Slower, doesn't blitz as well. But hey, he's listed at 6'3", which is top-5 linebacker size.

Ok. I'm (Edit, in light of the following post - almost) done for now.

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Old 11-05-2012, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I cannot agree. Jarvis is having a super season, Curry only went high because it was a terrible draft year, Jarvis is getting the hype in a solid draft year.
Jarvis has taken his game to the next level but I'm not saying he is as good as Miller but he's very talented.
Let's just forget the Miller comparisons for a minute, because that seems to be the primary basis for calling him a top-5 pick. Let's forget the Curry comparison, too, because obviously that's me saying I don't think he should be a top-5 pick. Point by point:

Yes, Jarvis is having a super season
Sure, Curry might've been overdrafted due to a weak class,
The hype is basically my concern. EVERYONE knows Jones is putting up the numbers.

Full disclosure - I wasn't a huge Von Miller fan before the draft. I thought the one-trick pony label was deserved, since everyone knew the team which drafted Von at the top of the draft would be drafting him for his pass rush ability. Of course, he destroyed the combine and basically worked out so well that no GM would feel foolish taking him. No guarantee Jones works out that well. The difference between the people applauding the Broncos for taking Von and the Seahawks being booed for taking Bruce Irvin is the differences in their overall game - Miller doesn't have to come off the field, while Irvin mostly rotates in to rush the passer. But both were drafted for the rush ability, and it's their rush ability which has made the impact for their respective teams. Now, Von Miller is surely a superior NFL player to Bruce Irvin, and I just want to get that out of the way because it is far from my point - Clearly, college sack totals do not necessarily carry over to NFL production, so GMs are looking at other traits when they decide who they're going to spend premium picks on. Watching Jones' tape, I don't see the kind of pass-rushing ability of either Miller or Irvin. Jone's is not a pure rusher in that mold, which is a mold NFL GMs will take a chance on - see Irvin.

So you can say Jones is just as good at other aspects of his game as Miller, but that's failing to grasp how valuable Miller's pass rush ability is, and also how rare, and how coveted - Miller was drafted at the top of the draft for his pass rush. I bring up Irvin, who hardly plays the run at all, just to illustrate how little a player's ability to go against the run measures against pass rush ability. Both of these guys were drafted as pass rushers, with Von going higher because he was more versatile. You don't say "Jones is versatile like Von Miller so he should go top-5." Again - Miller's main attribute that scouts paid attention to was his rare pass-rushing ability; that's what boosted his stock. If I'm saying I think Jones gets blocked too easily and a lot of his sacks and TFLs are essentially cleanup plays, and therefore his ability to penetrate into the backfield and disrupt games by himself is not his best trait... we're not talking about him having a top-5 trait. What does he do that puts him at the top of the draft? I could name pages of solid players who've played for a decade, who've been solid starters and maybe even have a great season or two in there which resulted in a Pro Bowl nod, who I absolutely would not have taken with a top-5 pick in retrospect. You wouldn't want to draft Adalius Thomas 5th overall, would you? It's no insult of a comparison, either.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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But really, in this thread, the title is the point - "Is Jarvis Jones a Von Miller clone?"

In other words, are teams essentially getting a second chance to draft Von Miller? It's a nice compliment to Jones, but the answer I think is pretty clearly "no." They're playing styles have some pretty significant differences, and those differences surely affect their draft value.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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The Von Miller comparison is irrelevant. Jones is going to be a top 10 pick (possibly top 5) because he's a good player who deserves to be drafted that high.

Secondly, you say his college accolades come from his sack totals more than anything, but it couldn't be further from the truth. It's his PLAYMAKING ABILITY that is special. Forcing timely fumbles, dominating games while playing hurt, and changing the momentum of games in UGA's favor when somebody has to step up and make a play. He does it over and over and over again.

I have no idea what you're doing on Saturdays when Jarvis Jones is playing, but it's obviously not watching him.

It's the plays that he effects that don't show up on the stat sheet that make him a good player. You can go back to the safety on Jeff Scott just this past Saturday.... Jones allowed that play happen, but will show up nowhere on the stat sheet.

Mychal Kendricks is apples and oranges and doesn't even play the same position. He wasn't lining up on the edge forced to beat offensive tackles on a down to down basis to make plays. He just played close to the line of scrimmage and blitzed gaps.

I mean if you're not impressed then you're just not impressed, so be it. He'll get drafted for HIS talent and what HE does on the football field... not Von Miller.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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The Von Miller comparison is irrelevant. Jones is going to be a top 10 pick (possibly top 5) because he's a good player who deserves to be drafted that high.
Well... why?

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Secondly, you say his college accolades come from his sack totals more than anything, but it couldn't be further from the truth. It's his PLAYMAKING ABILITY that is special. Forcing timely fumbles, dominating games while playing hurt, and changing the momentum of games in UGA's favor when somebody has to step up and make a play. He does it over and over and over again.
Oh. You mean like Aaron Curry, or ANY OTHER CELEBRATED COLLEGIATE PLAYER.

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I have no idea what you're doing on Saturdays when Jarvis Jones is playing, but it's obviously not watching him.
I've watched him other days than Saturday? On my laptop?

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It's the plays that he effects that don't show up on the stat sheet that make him a good player. You can go back to the safety on Jeff Scott just this past Saturday.... Jones allowed that play happen, but will show up nowhere on the stat sheet.
Credit where it's due - this is the kind of thing which is relevant, but has been lacking in this conversation, which has more or less been an exercise in the apologetics of Jarvis Jones' pass-rushing ability.

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Mychal Kendricks is apples and oranges and doesn't even play the same position. He wasn't lining up on the edge forced to beat offensive tackles on a down to down basis to make plays. He just played close to the line of scrimmage and blitzed gaps.
It's all apples and oranges when it comes down to it; I was just talking about their blitzing style. Kendricks seemed to play a more attacking style, while Jones' style is more read-react. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it shows up on tape, too - I mean, if a guy's reading and reacting and getting sacks, he's doing a great job, but when you're evaluating what a guy can do for your NFL team, a player who's getting sacks on the attack looks a little different. This could really be a question of positional value, too, because nowhere in here am I saying Jones can't start in the NFL or be an excellent player, I'm questioning if you take him that high in the draft. I mean, I'm not saying he "doesn't attack on the blitz" or anything like that, so let's not go there, either; I'm talking about tendencies, what these players individually excel at, and where that fits them into the mix. More than anything, I'm wondering who you'd be passing on to take him that high, and I have the feeling that at 5 you could do better than a disciplined, reliable outside linebacker.

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I mean if you're not impressed then you're just not impressed, so be it. He'll get drafted for HIS talent and what HE does on the football field... not Von Miller.
And we're in agreement.

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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Aaron Curry really wasn't this great playmaker at WF. He made a lot of tackles but he wasn't a game changer.

I totally agree with JHL6719's assessment of Jarvis Jones; good pass rush however he's arguably the best defensive playmaker in college football. The kid makes plays he shouldn't be able to all over the football field. Rushing the passer is just one aspect of his overall game.

As a pure playmaker/gamechanger, I think Jones is a better prospect than Von Miller. Jones just has better football instincts.
Von Miller may have the more impressive pass rush, but again I don't think it's by much. I think Jones will run a mid- high 4.5/low 4.6 predraft which is more than enough timed speed for a pass rusher. His agility and quickness compensate for whatever he lacks in raw straight line speed.

Definitely the top 43OLB prospect. May be less than ideal size to play OLB in 3-4, but I'll have to wait until the combine to get his actual measurements.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Jarvis Jones is a bit more versatile than Von. I would definitely say that Miller is the better pass rusher but not by much. Jarvis can do everything at the 3-4 OLB spot while Miller couldn't and still can't really cover.

If they were coming out the same year, Jones would go right before Miller but they are and will be great pros.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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Let's just forget the Miller comparisons for a minute, because that seems to be the primary basis for calling him a top-5 pick. Let's forget the Curry comparison, too, because obviously that's me saying I don't think he should be a top-5 pick. Point by point:

Yes, Jarvis is having a super season
Sure, Curry might've been overdrafted due to a weak class,
The hype is basically my concern. EVERYONE knows Jones is putting up the numbers.

Full disclosure - I wasn't a huge Von Miller fan before the draft. I thought the one-trick pony label was deserved, since everyone knew the team which drafted Von at the top of the draft would be drafting him for his pass rush ability. Of course, he destroyed the combine and basically worked out so well that no GM would feel foolish taking him. No guarantee Jones works out that well. The difference between the people applauding the Broncos for taking Von and the Seahawks being booed for taking Bruce Irvin is the differences in their overall game - Miller doesn't have to come off the field, while Irvin mostly rotates in to rush the passer. But both were drafted for the rush ability, and it's their rush ability which has made the impact for their respective teams. Now, Von Miller is surely a superior NFL player to Bruce Irvin, and I just want to get that out of the way because it is far from my point - Clearly, college sack totals do not necessarily carry over to NFL production, so GMs are looking at other traits when they decide who they're going to spend premium picks on. Watching Jones' tape, I don't see the kind of pass-rushing ability of either Miller or Irvin. Jone's is not a pure rusher in that mold, which is a mold NFL GMs will take a chance on - see Irvin.

So you can say Jones is just as good at other aspects of his game as Miller, but that's failing to grasp how valuable Miller's pass rush ability is, and also how rare, and how coveted - Miller was drafted at the top of the draft for his pass rush. I bring up Irvin, who hardly plays the run at all, just to illustrate how little a player's ability to go against the run measures against pass rush ability. Both of these guys were drafted as pass rushers, with Von going higher because he was more versatile. You don't say "Jones is versatile like Von Miller so he should go top-5." Again - Miller's main attribute that scouts paid attention to was his rare pass-rushing ability; that's what boosted his stock. If I'm saying I think Jones gets blocked too easily and a lot of his sacks and TFLs are essentially cleanup plays, and therefore his ability to penetrate into the backfield and disrupt games by himself is not his best trait... we're not talking about him having a top-5 trait. What does he do that puts him at the top of the draft? I could name pages of solid players who've played for a decade, who've been solid starters and maybe even have a great season or two in there which resulted in a Pro Bowl nod, who I absolutely would not have taken with a top-5 pick in retrospect. You wouldn't want to draft Adalius Thomas 5th overall, would you? It's no insult of a comparison, either.
Hey, in the middle of his rookie year, I predicted Miller would be a sure fire HOFer, so clearly I have a very high opinion of him.
Irvin has also turned into a terrific pass rusher but is a lot rawer than Miller, nevertheless, a pretty solid pick with a lot more to learn about a LBer's overall game.
I had reservation about Jones overall game with speed as his main weapon, but he has shown this season that he is a lot more than that, very proficient in pass coverage and very solid against the run. I'll hold off on any HOF prediction but I have no problem predicting him to be a top 5 pick unless his previous injuries knock him down a peg or 2.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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The thing about Jones that drops him as a prospect in my eyes is his spinal stenosis. I don't really know why it's not being brought up at this point. I think he'll be the Dequan Bowers of this years draft.

Edit: It has been brought up.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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Hey, in the middle of his rookie year, I predicted Miller would be a sure fire HOFer, so clearly I have a very high opinion of him.
Irvin has also turned into a terrific pass rusher but is a lot rawer than Miller, nevertheless, a pretty solid pick with a lot more to learn about a LBer's overall game.
I had reservation about Jones overall game with speed as his main weapon, but he has shown this season that he is a lot more than that, very proficient in pass coverage and very solid against the run. I'll hold off on any HOF prediction but I have no problem predicting him to be a top 5 pick unless his previous injuries knock him down a peg or 2.
If there's two positions in the NFL anymore which are steadily losing value, it's running backs and linebackers who aren't natural pass rushers. And for what it's worth, there's a big difference to me between Jarvis Jones being considered a top-5 player and a top-10 or top-15 player. Those 5 spots should be choosing players who you think will be a starter on any team in the league - you choose a guy with special ability. There's only a couple in each draft. My whole problem with calling Jarvis Jones a "top-5 pick," and I've said this before, is in imagining who I'd be passing over to take him.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:13 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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If there's two positions in the NFL anymore which are steadily losing value, it's running backs and linebackers who aren't natural pass rushers. And for what it's worth, there's a big difference to me between Jarvis Jones being considered a top-5 player and a top-10 or top-15 player. Those 5 spots should be choosing players who you think will be a starter on any team in the league - you choose a guy with special ability. There's only a couple in each draft. My whole problem with calling Jarvis Jones a "top-5 pick," and I've said this before, is in imagining who I'd be passing over to take him.
You right, RB and LB have lost some of their luster except when a LB can rush the passer. There were question on Jones going into his senior year, injury history and overall toughness. He has answered the toughness questions and with elite speed, he can be a dominate pass rusher at the next level. IMO, he has shown he has top 5 talent, but with an injury history, he may well drop into the top 10, but I cannot see him dropping any lower.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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Jarvis Jones Von Miller comparison. What was I thinking back in November? SMDH
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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True, but I got killed for even mentioning the two's name in the same sentence when I posted this.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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Jones is Von Miller light at best. Miller is a completey fluid athlete who is strong, quick, fast and has incredible instincts. He also has thar rare, Derrick Thomas level first step. He has a refined passrush technique and can redirect his momentum on the run and convert speed to power. Jones will find it more difficult to defeat blocks the way he did in college in the NFL. So no, Jones is not Miller.

And here's one other thought to chew on that none one has brought up. Have you notice the glut of defensive talent Jones was able to play with at Georgia? How many combine guy from that defense?

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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IMO, Jarvis Jones would normally be the 1st guy drafted this year if it wasn't for his spinal problems and only the doctors can decide now, where he will go in the draft.
Jones is an excellent pass rusher, by far the best in the draft and could dominate at the next level a la Miller but if the doctors give a thumbs down on his spinal condition, he will likely drop to round 2.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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I do agree with that statement. Georgia was freakin' loaded last year. They had a whole bunch of dudes. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Ogletree.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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he's not Von Miller who is a legit 4.4 guy and great in coverage. As a player, maybe a lighter Orakpo is a better comparison. But as a historical prospect Terrell Suggs has some similarities. He is the NCAA all time sack leader, if Jarvis had stayed for his senior year, he'd be (projected) to be right in that neighborhood. But as we all know Suggs didn't run well, ran a 4.8, Jones will run faster (but not by much). Jones wont work out amazing but he's got Suggs-like production. I don't see Jones falling out of the top 10.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:05 AM    (permalink
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he's not Von Miller who is a legit 4.4 guy and great in coverage. As a player, maybe a lighter Orakpo is a better comparison. But as a historical prospect Terrell Suggs has some similarities. He is the NCAA all time sack leader, if Jarvis had stayed for his senior year, he'd be (projected) to be right in that neighborhood. But as we all know Suggs didn't run well, ran a 4.8, Jones will run faster (but not by much). Jones wont work out amazing but he's got Suggs-like production. I don't see Jones falling out of the top 10.
I think Jones will run in the 4.5's but the doctors will have to give a thumbs up for him to go top 10, doctors always have the final say when a prospect has health issues. GM's never override a doctor's report.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, UGA was loaded with defensive talent last year, and one player was clearly the best player on that defense: Jarvis Jones
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