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Old 11-06-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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Here we go... Election time is debate season after all.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I'm not sure I would say Rodgers is the standard setter for QBs this year. He has had some great performances but some pretty sub par ones as well. Take last week. Sure he threw 4 TDs but he completed less than 50% of his passes. He has also nearly matched his INT total from last year already (sure 5 isn't exactly bad through 9 games) however I think something is off with Rodgers this year. His ypa is also way down on his awesome year last year. Just to be clear I am in no way saying Rodgers isn't having a good year, however he is now back in the pack at the top instead of being a clear cut leader. I don't think any one QB has been a stand out thus far.
The only reason Rodgers was under 50% last week was because this team drops more goddamn balls then anyone else. The Int he had last week also wasn't his fault. Rodgers would easily be over 70% on the year if we could catch. Finely be himself probably has dropped Rodgers a few %.

An lets not forget what Rodgers has did this year and the last couple has come with one of the worst running games to speak of. Our RBs strike fear in no one and we can't run to save ourlives. And don't tell me about last week, that was a fluke.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Career TDs

Green:15
Jones: 13

I could post more stats, but that kind of sums up the point that Green is not that much more productive.
Julio also has a better QB, better WR opposite him and better all around team, it should be much easier for him to outproduce AJ than vice versa, yet here we are.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 11-06-2012, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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haha good one
Yes, Vernon certainly is a good alternative thank you.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27 View Post
But I see Green being much more productive, like a randy moss type roll because he is the only one on the team worth anything...

Jones will always have White taking his looks and catches... or atleast until White retires.
This is all fair but I don't see how any of it has anything to do with why Green is better.




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Julio also has a better QB, better WR opposite him and better all around team.
I'll give you the better QB, but the better WR opposite argument goes both ways. You can say it makes his job easier because it's an extra WR for defenders to worry about, and it is also an extra productive WR taking away targets. None of that makes Julio any less of a player, it's just the way it works. When you have a guy on a crappy team as the only good receiving option and another guy on a team with a ton of weapons, the guy on the crappy team will always have more opportunities to make plays.


It's hard to just dominate targets when you have arguably the best TE this season still playing at an elite level and one of the better WR's in the league. Besides that, I'm not really trying to argue that Julio>AJG, just that it's very very close.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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A WR like White opposite him, means Julio doesn't have the coverages built around stopping him the way teams scheme against Green. AJ's regularly got coverages either rolled in his direction or double teams to deal with. Julio gets a lot more one on ones to abuse the corner on, and that's far more significant than the handful of extra passes White has thrown to him versus an average WR.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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After having thought about it a little, I think my list would look about like...

Quarterback - Aaron Rodgers. Doesn't really require an explanation. He does everything well.

Running back - Adrian Peterson. Now that he's not a fumbler and he's healed, there just isn't a weakness to his game.

Wide receiver - Larry Fitzgerald. Calvin Johnson is the other strong consideration, but considering the laughable state of Arizona's QBs I'm going to give Fitz a bit of a statistical mulligan and keep in mind that everyone's measured themselves against this guy for years, and he's still in his prime. He's on a lousy team right now.

Tight End - Rob Gronkowski. He's a valuable blocker, he can go up and get the ball over the top of anyone, and defenders do not enjoy tackling him in the open field. There's a few smoother athletes at the position, but no better football players.

All-Purpose Player - Percy Harvin. Thought about it for a bit, and couldn't think of another player who does more for his team in a great variety of ways. Part of what lands Harvin here, for me (and this may sound strange), but for some reason I've never really thought of him as a go-to receiver. He's leading the lead in receptions right now, so that seems off-base, but most of his catches are short passes and he's expected to run after the catch. That's why they give him a couple handoffs and tosses per game and also have him run back kicks, so obviously he's a guy they're just trying to get the ball to any way they can, and he knows what to do with it. I was going to put down a returner, too, but realized it would be Percy Harvin - in other words, he is the best all-purpose player in the league.

Offensive Line - I feel pretty weak about whoever I'd put here, so I just won't.

Defensive Line - JJ Watt. Like Gronkowski, there are smoother athletes out there, but he does everything and does it at a very high level. Cornerstone type of defensive player schemes are built around.

Pass Rusher - Von Miller. Only in his second season, and he's on pace for 18 sacks so far this year. Other guys can get to the quarterback, but perhaps no one can get there as fast as Von. Whenever I watch him it's like watching a knife blade swiping at somebody. Opponents find him on every offensive snap.

Linebacker - Daryl Washington. Surprise! The third-year player out of TCU has 75 tackles and 8 sacks so far this year at middle linebacker. Also has two force fumbles. Arizona might have the worst offense in the league, so considering how often they give the ball back to their opponents, AZ's defensive rankings in the top-10 are all the more impressive, and Washington is leading a lot of those plays. He was really coming into his own last year, starting and compiling over 100 tackles and 5 sacks last year, so his explosion this year is following an upward trend in his play. I see the Cardinals a few times a year, and their defense is for real, and Washington's the central cog of it. He's got great range.

Cornerback - Richard Sherman. There's certainly a bit of a homer element here, but I've watched all the Seahawks games this year and you can't ask for much better. He doesn't have elite speed, but he's 6'3" with a huge wingspan, and you see his experience as a wide receiver when he's dragging his toes along the sideline bringing in a pick. He's done that more than once. And lest you think this is a finesse player who simply uses his range and length to snag errant passes, you should have seen him smack Percy Harvin at the sideline Sunday. This is a corner who backs down from no one, and that might be his best trait on top of everything else.

Safety - I don't know if this is just because I watch Seahawks games or not, but I can't think of a safety in the NFL right now who's better than Earl Thomas. If you want a player who will cover half the back end, plays the ball in the air super aggressively, and despite being a little on the small side (5'10" 202) is a great tackler and a real asset in run support. Reminds you of Bob Sanders before all the injuries, except he's a better pass defender and probably a little less crazy at the point of attack.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
A WR like White opposite him, means Julio doesn't have the coverages built around stopping him the way teams scheme against Green. AJ's regularly got coverages either rolled in his direction or double teams to deal with. Julio gets a lot more one on ones to abuse the corner on, and that's far more significant than the handful of extra passes White has thrown to him versus an average WR.
Your right. That doesn't mean we have to assume that he can't produce in the same scenario as Green and it's useless to hold it against him. I honestly have a hard time buying that Julio would go to say, Miami, and not be more productive. That's with all the attention in the world on him. But for what it's worth, defenses are scheming to stop Julio and focusing attention on him in games no matter who comes out more productive. This was the same thing with Dez last year, Austin may have been more productive a bunch of games but defenses were scheming to stop Dez and rolling coverages his way.


If the argument is talent, you can't try and dismiss a player because he was drafted into a good situation. Would AJ Green be any less the player if he played for Detroit? Would it be fair to assume he can't beat coverages on his own just because he wasn't afforded the opportunity to do so? I'm sure you've seen Julio blow past a CB and a Safety together numerous times since being drafted anyway, so it's a moot point to act like he's incapable of it just because he has good players on offense with him.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Oh Julio's awesome in his own right, and I'm not saying we should throw out his production and performances, but when you're comparing him to someone as great as AJ, someone who's outshining him in a worse environment, it comes into play and does count as a mark for AJ over Julio. AJ Green's just that awesomer that Julio isn't on his level yet.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 11-06-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Julio also has a better QB, better WR opposite him and better all around team, it should be much easier for him to outproduce AJ than vice versa, yet here we are.
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I'll give you the better QB, but the better WR opposite argument goes both ways.
Let's not act as if Dalton is a scrub, I'm not sure I'd give him the better QB argument either : Yes, Matt Ryan is currently a better QB than Andy Dalton, but that is more a matter of Ryan making fewer mistakes than it is about their ability to complete a certain quantity of passes to their top target(s), therefore not impacting the Jones vs Green productivity debate all that much.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Id say Green is definitely the more natural WR, better route running, hands, football IQ, does the subtle things well....Julio is a little bit more of a physical beast, you know a little stronger, faster, jumps a lil higher...I think right now its clear AJ Green is better than Julio Jones, but I dont think its by THAT much. Fact is, their both in their second year and are already two of the best receivers in the game. It's something thats been debated in the past, and its something that will continue to be debated.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Cornerback - Richard Sherman. There's certainly a bit of a homer element here, but I've watched all the Seahawks games this year and you can't ask for much better. He doesn't have elite speed, but he's 6'3" with a huge wingspan, and you see his experience as a wide receiver when he's dragging his toes along the sideline bringing in a pick. He's done that more than once. And lest you think this is a finesse player who simply uses his range and length to snag errant passes, you should have seen him smack Percy Harvin at the sideline Sunday. This is a corner who backs down from no one, and that might be his best trait on top of everything else.
I don't care for Revis' injury, there's just not a single possible argument for anybody else.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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I don't care for Revis' injury, there's just not a single possible argument for anybody else.
Revis isn't playing right now, so he doesn't count. If he was healthy, this spot would be his. If this was week 10 of last year, it would be Revis. But it's 2012 and Revis is out, so it's gotta be somebody else.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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I don't think I could say that Harvin is better than Sproles as an all-purpose player. This year alone eight games in, sure, looking back over the past 2 and a half years they're 1a and 1b. There aren't very many players in the league that actually play special teams, run the ball and catch the ball very often though. I don't think Cobb has had enough opportunities to match Sproles or Harvin yet.

After those three theres only a few guys that could be considered. Antonio Brown is one of the few who actually produces well on offense and is a solid special teams threat. The next best is probably Jacoby Jones. After that its basically Hester, Ginn, Cribbs, Leon Washington and Joe McKnight who are all really good returners but don't produce as much on offense.

Not a lot of competition for setting the standard.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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People still entertaining the idea that Bowman is better than Willis...thats cute.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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People still entertaining the idea that Bowman is better than Willis...thats cute.
He had a better year last year. Both are pretty much neck and neck to me.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
Not a lot of competition for setting the standard.
You're right, but it's mostly because Percy is so good. If it wasn't for him, there'd be more of a discussion among the others you've mentioned like Devin Hester, Sproles, etc. It's just that the league's leading returner is also leading the league in receptions. Not sure when the last time that was. It really means Harvin ought to be solidly in the MVP conversation.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:49 PM    (permalink
SickwithIt1010
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He had a better year last year. Both are pretty much neck and neck to me.
Because Willis missed game and people game plan around Willis. I can guarantee you as an offensive line or as a quarterback the first person you identify coming to the line of scrimmage is Patrick Willis, which Makes Bowman's job that much easier. The more attention Willis gets the more Bowman gets to run around like a mad man.

You give me the choice? I take Willis 10 times out of 10 and I dont think twice about it.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:02 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Because Willis missed game and people game plan around Willis. I can guarantee you as an offensive line or as a quarterback the first person you identify coming to the line of scrimmage is Patrick Willis, which Makes Bowman's job that much easier. The more attention Willis gets the more Bowman gets to run around like a mad man.

You give me the choice? I take Willis 10 times out of 10 and I dont think twice about it.
No, because Bowman is actually that talented as an inside linebacker. It had nothing to do with Willis time. Bowman was playing well with him in the lineup and during the time he missed three games (it wasn't just one). Doesn't matter who you identify between the two. Both are All Pro linebackers. Willis has a better reputation because he's been in the NFL a little longer, but some games Bowman outshines Willis and vice versa. If you think offenses aren't accounting for Bowman as much as they do Willis, and implying that Bowman is simply a product of a system, then you need to rewatch the games. Both are currently playing at a high level. If you like Willis better, that's fine. I'm just saying folks that have an opinion that Bowman might be a better player than Willis, or rather, playing at a better level currently aren't crazy.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 11-07-2012, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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I will preface my picks with my thoughts on a prototype. I put it as my ideal coinstruct. That being said, some players just do things that are just an outlier. Case in point with receiver. My guy would be aj green. He is just what I think of a perfect receiver. Catching the ball like silk. Great leaping ability, great speed, great quickness. That being said, that doesn't mean he is a better receiver than a guy like megatron or fitzgerald.

Qb - aaron rodgers. Not quite the cerebral field generals ala manning and brady, but he is just so good in every phase where the other guys can be lacking.

Rb - ap just the most natural runner in the nfl.

Wr - aj green for reasons stated above

Te - gronkowski. Huge in the running game, good hands, good speed and quickness and can just overpower most players.

Ot - joe thomas

Og - not too sure about this one. I want a guy who can maul, but can be valuable pulling too

C - another question mark, here I want a cerebral guy who can be the captain of the line with blocking calls. In the past matt birk fits the profile.

43 de - guy who is above average in pass rush and run stopping, thinking julius peppers here. Add in jared allen.

34 de - double team eater who can pass rush too. Obviously jj watt is playing out of his mind, but he is almost outlier category now. Justin smith fits too.

34 nt - gotta go vince wilfork here. Classic space eater.

43 dt - have no idea about this, so I will defer to more knowledgeable fans.

34 olb - gotta be ware.

34 ilb - patrick willis

New to the 43 game, so will defer here.

Cb - like what guys are doing, but a healthy revis is this even if he doesn't qualify

Ss - kam chancellor

Fs - ed reed - there is no reason I can see he can still play at the level he does at his age other than he made the drive from m and t to fedex and sapped darrel greens mojo. Saw


On a side note, just saw something on green. I think he could play meaningful snaps even at his age.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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No, because Bowman is actually that talented as an inside linebacker. It had nothing to do with Willis time. Bowman was playing well with him in the lineup and during the time he missed three games (it wasn't just one). Doesn't matter who you identify between the two. Both are All Pro linebackers. Willis has a better reputation because he's been in the NFL a little longer, but some games Bowman outshines Willis and vice versa. If you think offenses aren't accounting for Bowman as much as they do Willis, and implying that Bowman is simply a product of a system, then you need to rewatch the games. Both are currently playing at a high level. If you like Willis better, that's fine. I'm just saying folks that have an opinion that Bowman might be a better player than Willis, or rather, playing at a better level currently aren't crazy.
Im not saying the guy is a bad player or that he is a product of the system but for people to say he is better than Willis is just not true. Menardo is my roommate, I am forced to watch the 9er game EVERY weekend regardless if I want to or not lol.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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Julio's got a lot of catching up to do to make it close before we start debating that.
Itd be much different if Roddy White was a Bengal too...
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Yes, Vernon certainly is a good alternative thank you.
Vernon Davis is a great TE, but when you want to set the standard between Gronk and him it's an absurdly easy choice. Gronk and Vernon excel in a lot of the same areas except Gronk does pretty much everything better.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Im still not seeing how people are saying just because Julio is bigger and faster it outweighs the production Green has.

Plain and simple you are expected to produce, Green has out produced Jones, and that could be for any number of reasons, but it is clear cut that EVERYONE knows the ball is going to green and still produeces.

Jones has an all pro TE and WR around him coupled with a Very good QB, so he isnt the main guy or only guy to worry about. he is usually matched against teams #2 corner...

Remember if the game was merely who is the biggest and fastest David Boston would have gone down as one of the best.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:45 PM    (permalink
Job Reborn
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Im still not seeing how people are saying just because Julio is bigger and faster it outweighs the production Green has.

Plain and simple you are expected to produce, Green has out produced Jones, and that could be for any number of reasons, but it is clear cut that EVERYONE knows the ball is going to green and still produeces.

Jones has an all pro TE and WR around him coupled with a Very good QB, so he isnt the main guy or only guy to worry about. he is usually matched against teams #2 corner...

Remember if the game was merely who is the biggest and fastest David Boston would have gone down as one of the best.
Cause, you know, the best WRs in the game have never had another great WR opposite them.

see Rice/Owens, Fitz/Boldin, Bruce/Holt, Moss/Carter, Harrison/Wayne and surely a hell bunch of others.

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