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Old 11-07-2012, 01:09 PM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27 View Post
Im still not seeing how people are saying just because Julio is bigger and faster it outweighs the production Green has.

It doesn't out weight the production. But let's not act like the production is a landslide in 1 direction or the other. It's very close, look at their rookie seasons for an example. There wasn't much difference at all between them. Julio being bigger and faster does count, thing is people want to treat Julio like a combine workout warrior. Somebody who just timed really well and never had production or film to match up with it which isn't the case. I don't think him being bigger, stronger, faster makes that big of a deal, it's a point that matters in the grand scheme of things but anyone who backs AJG are always quick to dismiss those points because they don't help their argument.



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Plain and simple you are expected to produce, Green has out produced Jones, and that could be for any number of reasons, but it is clear cut that EVERYONE knows the ball is going to green and still produeces.

Jones has an all pro TE and WR around him coupled with a Very good QB, so he isnt the main guy or only guy to worry about. he is usually matched against teams #2 corner...

Remember if the game was merely who is the biggest and fastest David Boston would have gone down as one of the best.

Your arguing things that don't even matter, so I'm not sure what point your trying to make. Are you trying to tell me that every good, or HOF WR that ever came along only played on teams where there was no good TE, or QB, or other WR? You do realize that just because Julio was drafted by a team who had Roddy White that doesn't make him any less of a player?


That's just a lazy argument that has nothing to do with either of the players actual skill set, people just try to construe this idea that because Julio plays in Atlanta, every team lines up every week trying to stop Roddy White. He gets the best CB, double coverages, Gonzalez takes away the other defenders, so Julio just waltzes his way to production and that is the reason why he is producing.


It's obvious that nobody who says that ever really pays attention to any games and can't seperate AJG and Julio themselves so it's always the easiest. I'm not going to act like I have All-22 film or anything, but it's annoying to hear people act like Julio gets the #2 CB in single coverage all game long. It's definately true that it's easier on a player when you have weapons all over, but too many people mistake that to mean that same player is incapable of doing it on a team with a worse situation.
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
Vernon Davis is a great TE, but when you want to set the standard between Gronk and him it's an absurdly easy choice. Gronk and Vernon excel in a lot of the same areas except Gronk does pretty much everything better.
No he doesn't. He has better statistics because of the offense he's in and the QB that is throwing to him, but as far as other nuances like blocking, running routes, shedding defenders, or getting separation Gronkowski isn't necessarily better. Davis is even better this year with the mental lapses that used to plague him. Only one drop this year and zero penalties.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Job Reborn View Post
Cause, you know, the best WRs in the game have never had another great WR opposite them.

see Rice/Owens, Fitz/Boldin, Bruce/Holt, Moss/Carter, Harrison/Wayne and surely a hell bunch of others.
How are people failing to grasp that what Green is doing is harder? How is it so hard to grasp the simple point that with Turner in the backfield, an MVP candidate at QB, and All-Pro caliber veterans at both TE and the other wideout spot, that Julio Jones is making his catches against inferior defenders than the ones who line up over AJ?

Green's QB is another young player, and is a player who has exceeded expectations. Teams do not fear Cincy's TE, RB or other wide receivers. AJ Green will always get the defense's top defender in man coverage. Julio Jones will not. People who are saying their production is the same only mean their stats are similar. Say it's 2004 again. Brandon Stokley catches 68 passes from Peyton Manning for 1077 yards and 10 TDs. Very productive. Hines Ward catches 80 passes for 1004 yards and 4 TDs from a rookie quarterback. Similar production. Stokley was a little more productive. Certainly had a lot more fantasy points. Hines Ward, in 2004, was a far better player and had 10 times the value to his team Stokley had to his.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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No he doesn't. He has better statistics because of the offense he's in and the QB that is throwing to him, but as far as other nuances like blocking, running routes, shedding defenders, or getting separation Gronkowski isn't necessarily better. Davis is even better this year with the mental lapses that used to plague him. Only one drop this year and zero penalties.
For what it's worth, Davis is probably my second choice. Really give the edge to Gronk, I think, because of his size. There's really a pretty significant difference there. Can you imagine what Vernon Davis would be like if he was 6'6"?
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Job Reborn View Post
Cause, you know, the best WRs in the game have never had another great WR opposite them.

see Rice/Owens, Fitz/Boldin, Bruce/Holt, Moss/Carter, Harrison/Wayne and surely a hell bunch of others.
Not my point, Those guys still produced and players like Holt and Moss and Owens produced more than their counterparts..

Julio is second fiddle to White, Green is head and shoulders out producing him.. with lesser talent to draw coverage away and a QB that is not near as good as Ryan.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Cause, you know, the best WRs in the game have never had another great WR opposite them.

see Rice/Owens, Fitz/Boldin, Bruce/Holt, Moss/Carter, Harrison/Wayne and surely a hell bunch of others.
I'm re-quoting you because I think I might not have made my basic point for the purposes of this conversation, which is that when you're evaluating them, AJ is clearly a no. 1 on his team, while Julio Jones is not. If you're using one of them to "set a standard," then, I'm not sure Julio's actual role allows him to qualify yet. Maybe next year? But we just don't really know how he'd handle being the first option and being double-covered and focused on all the time the way AJ is. I'm really not trying to say Julio is less talented so much as I don't think he really has the resume yet. He's not even the best receiver on his own team.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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How are people failing to grasp that what Green is doing is harder? How is it so hard to grasp the simple point that with Turner in the backfield, an MVP candidate at QB, and All-Pro caliber veterans at both TE and the other wideout spot, that Julio Jones is making his catches against inferior defenders than the ones who line up over AJ?

Green's QB is another young player, and is a player who has exceeded expectations. Teams do not fear Cincy's TE, RB or other wide receivers. AJ Green will always get the defense's top defender in man coverage. Julio Jones will not. People who are saying their production is the same only mean their stats are similar. Say it's 2004 again. Brandon Stokley catches 68 passes from Peyton Manning for 1077 yards and 10 TDs. Very productive. Hines Ward catches 80 passes for 1004 yards and 4 TDs from a rookie quarterback. Similar production. Stokley was a little more productive. Certainly had a lot more fantasy points. Hines Ward, in 2004, was a far better player and had 10 times the value to his team Stokley had to his.
Exactly.. I couldnt agree with this post more
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Not my point, Those guys still produced and players like Holt and Moss and Owens produced more than their counterparts..

Julio is second fiddle to White, Green is head and shoulders out producing him.. with lesser talent to draw coverage away and a QB that is not near as good as Ryan.
On the other hand one could say he gets targeted more often due to being the only guy on his team who actually can get open on a regular basis, and having a younger, not-as-good QB who is therefore a lot more prone to forcing the ball to his top receiver, effectively inflating his statistics. Argument goes both ways.

My sentence structure sucks.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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For what it's worth, Davis is probably my second choice. Really give the edge to Gronk, I think, because of his size. There's really a pretty significant difference there. Can you imagine what Vernon Davis would be like if he was 6'6"?
I don't mind anyone giving the edge to Gronkowski, but saying nonchalantly that Gronkowski does everything better just seems ridiculous to me, as if it's night and day and it isn't.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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I'm re-quoting you because I think I might not have made my basic point for the purposes of this conversation, which is that when you're evaluating them, AJ is clearly a no. 1 on his team, while Julio Jones is not. If you're using one of them to "set a standard," then, I'm not sure Julio's actual role allows him to qualify yet. Maybe next year? But we just don't really know how he'd handle being the first option and being double-covered and focused on all the time the way AJ is. I'm really not trying to say Julio is less talented so much as I don't think he really has the resume yet. He's not even the best receiver on his own team.

You realize you could have used all those same arguments against Larry Fitzgerald prior to 2010 right? I don't think it would have been any more fair then to just assume Fitz wouldn't be able to do it because he never has had a chance to before, or because he played next to another great WR. It's easy to assume because a guy has another big time WR playing next to him that he'd never be able to produce on his own.


I just have a problem with making an argument against a player for something we don't know. Of course I understand it's easier with who is around Julio, that's obvious and I know I have stated as much, but that's completely different then saying "player A is better because he does it with nobody around him and player B isn't as good because he has a better supporting cast". I don't think it's that black and white and it doesn't say anything about the talent level of said players.


I also don't think there is as big of a discrepancy in talent level between the two so I'm not going to grasp the Stokely/Ward comparison as much. If roles were reversed, and each guy played for the opposite team, everybody in the world would be saying "well AJG could be doing this on his own you can't fault him for who he plays with" but with Julio it's almost like it's ok to assume he'd never be able to do it without the help of the players around him.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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Julio gets covered by the #1 corners for the most part by the way. Sure having Roddy White, who's a great receiver in his own right, across him from helps. However, he also isn't force fed targets and makes very efficient use of the targets he does get. Julio and AJ Green are both beasts so I don't see why we're knocking either of them anyway.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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I don't mind anyone giving the edge to Gronkowski, but saying nonchalantly that Gronkowski does everything better just seems ridiculous to me, as if it's night and day and it isn't.
Well what does VD do better than gronk other than burst up the sideline on those wheel routes. Gronk's the more overwhelming blocker and more dominant receiver.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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Well what does VD do better than gronk other than burst up the sideline on those wheel routes. Gronk's the more overwhelming blocker and more dominant receiver.
Gronkowski isn't the more overwhelming blocker. Both are very good and on the same level.

I will say that Gronkowski probably has better hands, as in years past Vernon has had issues with drops, but that isn't the case this year.

And if you think all Vernon Davis is run wheel routes in the 49ers offense then I'll just stop this conversation right there.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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And if you think all Vernon Davis is run wheel routes in the 49ers offense then I'll just stop this conversation right there.
Reading is on that list of things you suck at, isn't it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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Reading is on that list of things you suck at, isn't it.
Irony at it's finest.

By the way I love when people take issue with the poster instead of the post. Just further verification that responding to you is a waste of time.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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I just have a problem with making an argument against a player for something we don't know.
I'm really only taking the reverse of this, and saying that's what makes it hard to say Julio Jones is an elite wide receiver. It's not obvious to me yet. Clearly, Fitz did not become the focal point of Arizona's offense only after Anquan left. And aside from those two, Arizona's offense was terrible. It's not just that Julio has one elite wideout across from him, but that he's playing on a very strong team overall - you can't deny that makes his job easier. And you don't:

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Of course I understand it's easier with who is around Julio, that's obvious and I know I have stated as much, but that's completely different then saying "player A is better because he does it with nobody around him and player B isn't as good because he has a better supporting cast". I don't think it's that black and white and it doesn't say anything about the talent level of said players.
I agree with you. My main point is that if you talk about who's setting a standard of play at the wide receiver position, you're not simply talking about who has the most ability, but the person who fills that role in their offense the best. Since Julio Jones is not as important to his offense as AJ Green, AJ Green's body of work looks different; his production is a bit more critical, and that's why AJ Green is a bit more relevant to this particular conversation than Julio Jones. I'm not coming at it from a "Green is better than Jones" angle, I'm thinking about who you watch game after game and think, "Now that's what a number one wideout does." If nothing else, I think AJ gives you more opportunities to say that.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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No he doesn't. He has better statistics because of the offense he's in and the QB that is throwing to him, but as far as other nuances like blocking, running routes, shedding defenders, or getting separation Gronkowski isn't necessarily better. Davis is even better this year with the mental lapses that used to plague him. Only one drop this year and zero penalties.
Bull, TE's never produced in our offense before Gronk, and we've had guys go elsewhere and have better production than they did here. The truth of the matter is the Patriots design far too few plays for Gronk, and Tom Brady doesn't throw a particularly good seam route which should be Gronk's bread and butter.

As far as the rest of what you said, Gronk is an outstanding blocker. He's by far the best I can ever remember on the team, and we've had some good ones (Daniel Graham, Kyle Brady, Alge Crumpler). Vernon Davis has never stood out as much because he doesn't have the natural power or length that Gronkowski has. The Pats entire rushing offense is predicated around Gronk. They use him to seal the edge, they design plays to have him trap DT's, they use him as a FB, they run power rushes behind him, and they're not afraid to iso him in pass pro against pro bowl caliber DE's. Hell in last year's AFC championship they ran behind him when he was 1 on 1 with Ngata on the goal line and they scored.

He's also a more savvy route runner than you would think. He's always open for a 4.6 type guy. He disguises his routes well and breaks perfectly so that he can use his enormous frame to shield off defenders.

Vernon may be able to run in a straight line better and that may allow him to get behind guys a few times a year, but Gronk has a substantial advantage over him in a lot of categories. Make all the 49er's arguments you want about guys like Justin Smith and Patrick Willis, but there isn't really an argument to be made for Davis.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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Irony at it's finest.

By the way I love when people take issue with the poster instead of the post. Just further verification that responding to you is a waste of time.
*shrug* if you read my first post n think I said that all Vd does is run wheel routes why should I even bothe?
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Haha. Gronkowski is inarguably the best TE, by a decent margin as well. And if anyone else had any sort of stake to the claim of being the best at the position, it isn't Vernon Davis.

Gronkowski, in 2 full seasons had arguably the best season for a rookie TE ever(EDIT: NeVERMIND, I missed Ditka!! it was still great though), and followed it up with inarguably the best season for a TE ever. Give me a break.

Gronk "isn't necessarily better", if you take football out of the equation.

And what's with the excuses? With a QB like Smith, Davis has it all!!!
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Bull, TE's never produced in our offense before Gronk, and we've had guys go elsewhere and have better production than they did here. The truth of the matter is the Patriots design far too few plays for Gronk, and Tom Brady doesn't throw a particularly good seam route which should be Gronk's bread and butter.

As far as the rest of what you said, Gronk is an outstanding blocker. He's by far the best I can ever remember on the team, and we've had some good ones (Daniel Graham, Kyle Brady, Alge Crumpler). Vernon Davis has never stood out as much because he doesn't have the natural power or length that Gronkowski has. The Pats entire rushing offense is predicated around Gronk. They use him to seal the edge, they design plays to have him trap DT's, they use him as a FB, they run power rushes behind him, and they're not afraid to iso him in pass pro against pro bowl caliber DE's. Hell in last year's AFC championship they ran behind him when he was 1 on 1 with Ngata on the goal line and they scored.

He's also a more savvy route runner than you would think. He's always open for a 4.6 type guy. He disguises his routes well and breaks perfectly so that he can use his enormous frame to shield off defenders.


Vernon may be able to run in a straight line better and that may allow him to get behind guys a few times a year, but Gronk has a substantial advantage over him in a lot of categories. Make all the 49er's arguments you want about guys like Justin Smith and Patrick Willis, but there isn't really an argument to be made for Davis.
VD has been the standard for blocking for among TEs before Gronk was even in the league. He mad the Pro Bowl as a alternate in his 3rd year, strictly as a blocker. Your a Pats fan and I understand there is a certain amount of homerism involved in all this, but Gronk isn't head and shoulders better than VD. No other TE in league sees the type of coverages and dictates defensive schemes the way VD does. And he does ALOT more than run wheel routes and run in a straight line. I'll give you Gronk as a more savy route runner, but all that you mentioned about how they scheme around his blocking is something the Niners have been doing with VD for years, especially when Nolan and Singeltary were here because VD was our best blocker for awhile there....and I'm including our O-Lineman in that statement.

People who saw VD early in his career and just assumed all he did was run real fast and caught deep balls fail to realize that's how he was used because he was the only deep threat our team had. And the other half of the time, he was left in to pass-protect because our O-Line was horrible or we had a OC(Martz) who didn't know how to use him. He was our only difference maker in the passing game, so he was used much more like a WR. His speed is a gift and curse, so to speak because he probably will never be used quite like a guy who runs a 4.6 .But don't get it twisted, he's more than just some wheel route guy or just a post route. Both PFF and FO have raved about his play and his blocking for years now, even though his production hasn't been great. Nothing wrong with saying you like Gronk better. That's fine. As a red-zone target, I think he is better. That's the only real knock of VD is his height(and his hands to a certain degree). But Gronk isn't head and shoulders better than VD. Not even slightly better. They're a wash IMHO. I wouldn't say VD is better than Gronk, nor would I say Gronk is better than VD. Neither of them can hold a candle to Written or Gates but that's just me.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Bull, TE's never produced in our offense before Gronk, and we've had guys go elsewhere and have better production than they did here. The truth of the matter is the Patriots design far too few plays for Gronk, and Tom Brady doesn't throw a particularly good seam route which should be Gronk's bread and butter.
I'm not talking about what Gronkowski does for the Patriots though. I'm talking about ability as a player. What New England decides to do with Gronkowski with their offense is irrelevant.

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As far as the rest of what you said, Gronk is an outstanding blocker. He's by far the best I can ever remember on the team, and we've had some good ones (Daniel Graham, Kyle Brady, Alge Crumpler). Vernon Davis has never stood out as much because he doesn't have the natural power or length that Gronkowski has. The Pats entire rushing offense is predicated around Gronk. They use him to seal the edge, they design plays to have him trap DT's, they use him as a FB, they run power rushes behind him, and they're not afraid to iso him in pass pro against pro bowl caliber DE's. Hell in last year's AFC championship they ran behind him when he was 1 on 1 with Ngata on the goal line and they scored.
I never said he wasn't an outstanding blocker. Vernon Davis is also an outstanding blocker, especially in the running game. Jim Harbaugh's offense has a lot of big tight end sets designed to help in the ground attack. Vernon Davis is a huge part of the 49ers first ranked running game. The past tightends that have played for New England are irrelevant. Vernon Davis is already arguably the best tight end in 49ers history (Russ Francis, Brent Jones), but that has nothing to do with comparing him to Gronkowski as a player.

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He's also a more savvy route runner than you would think. He's always open for a 4.6 type guy. He disguises his routes well and breaks perfectly so that he can use his enormous frame to shield off defenders.
That's fine. Never said Gronk wasn't good at running routes. I implied that as a player, Gronkowski isn't better in all phases of the game, or most of them, at playing tight end compared to Davis. To me, both are neck and neck when it comes to the table in terms of what they can do.

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Vernon may be able to run in a straight line better and that may allow him to get behind guys a few times a year, but Gronk has a substantial advantage over him in a lot of categories. Make all the 49er's arguments you want about guys like Justin Smith and Patrick Willis, but there isn't really an argument to be made for Davis.
You like Gronkowski as a better player. That's cool, and I never saying that you couldn't or shouldn't have that opinion. But I completely disagree with this previous statement:

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Gronk and Vernon excel in a lot of the same areas except Gronk does pretty much everything better.
I think Pro Football Focus and Football Outsiders have even pretty much implied that they are nearly on the same level.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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VD has been the standard for blocking for among TEs before Gronk was even in the league. He mad the Pro Bowl as a alternate in his 3rd year, strictly as a blocker. Your a Pats fan and I understand there is a certain amount of homerism involved in all this, but Gronk isn't head and shoulders better than VD. No other TE in league sees the type of coverages and dictates defensive schemes the way VD does. And he does ALOT more than run wheel routes and run in a straight line. I'll give you Gronk as a more savy route runner, but all that you mentioned about how they scheme around his blocking is something the Niners have been doing with VD for years, especially when Nolan and Singeltary were here because VD was our best blocker for awhile there....and I'm including our O-Lineman in that statement.

People who saw VD early in his career and just assumed all he did was run real fast and caught deep balls fail to realize that's how he was used because he was the only deep threat our team had. And the other half of the time, he was left in to pass-protect because our O-Line was horrible or we had a OC(Martz) who didn't know how to use him. He was our only difference maker in the passing game, so he was used much more like a WR. His speed is a gift and curse, so to speak because he probably will never be used quite like a guy who runs a 4.6 .But don't get it twisted, he's more than just some wheel route guy or just a post route. Both PFF and FO have raved about his play and his blocking for years now, even though his production hasn't been great. Nothing wrong with saying you like Gronk better. That's fine. As a red-zone target, I think he is better. That's the only real knock of VD is his height(and his hands to a certain degree). But Gronk isn't head and shoulders better than VD. Not even slightly better. They're a wash IMHO. I wouldn't say VD is better than Gronk, nor would I say Gronk is better than VD. Neither of them can hold a candle to Written or Gates but that's just me.
Pretty much this. I think FO has him ranked first in tight ends in terms of value per play.

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Haha. Gronkowski is inarguably the best TE, by a decent margin as well. And if anyone else had any sort of stake to the claim of being the best at the position, it isn't Vernon Davis.

Gronkowski, in 2 full seasons had arguably the best season for a rookie TE ever(EDIT: NeVERMIND, I missed Ditka!! it was still great though), and followed it up with inarguably the best season for a TE ever. Give me a break.

Gronk "isn't necessarily better", if you take football out of the equation.

And what's with the excuses? With a QB like Smith, Davis has it all!!!
Yes, but some folks are actually looking beyond the fantasy football statistics.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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The TE opposite of setting the standard goes to Jermichael Finley in a landslide, from everything he says to dropping passes on Sundays, he's there when you need someone to **** up the most.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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I'm not talking about what Gronkowski does for the Patriots though. I'm talking about ability as a player. What New England decides to do with Gronkowski with their offense is irrelevant.
I mentioned the offense because you specifically said the only reason that Gronk has better stats than Davis is because of the offense he's in. I think that is a terrible point which is why I mentioned the Patriot's usage of Gronk.

Their respective blocking ability is not really worth getting into this because ultimately blocking is far too subjective to really make a substantial argument beyond "My guy is better because I say so". All I can say is there are games when I watch the 49ers and Delanie Walker looks like a better blocker than Vernon Davis. I have never seen a TE dominate so thoroughly in blocking as I have with Gronk.

PFF and FO are fine until you consider that Gronk made PFF's All Pro team over Vernon despite them saying Vernon is playing the best football of his career, and with the entire narrative of Gronk's season being about how his hip injury is preventing him from dominating like he did in 2011. Also, if we go by PFF then we must also talk about how good of a pass rusher Manny Lawson is, since I know how much you 49ers fans love that topic.

The fact of the matter is besides wheel routes there isn't a substantial area where Vernon excels over Gronk. Even if we somehow came to the conclusion that Gronk and Davis were equivalent blockers, Gronk still unquestionably is the better redzone threat, has better hands, and is harder to bring down in the open field. Gronk is the standard by which all TE's are judged. It's really not even a debate outside of 49ers fans.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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The TE opposite of setting the standard goes to Jermichael Finley in a landslide, from everything he says to dropping passes on Sundays, he's there when you need someone to **** up the most.
I'm glad everyone is finally over Finley. The "He dictates coverage more than any other TE" argument was brutal.
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