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Old 11-08-2012, 10:05 AM    (permalink
Jvig43
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1.Gronk.
2. Graham
3. VD

And it's certainly night and day for everyone who isn't a homer 9er fan.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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You have to look at pure Physical tools and the QB throwing them the ball.

Davis is a legit freak of nature when you take in speed, size and strength. He could be a WR if he shed a few pounds..

Gronk is more of your typical big body TE build.


The difference is one has a mediocre QB and is in an offense that is focused on running.


One has one of the best QBs to ever lace them up and in an offence that threw for 5000+ yards last season..

you do the math and realize that Gronk produces more because of the system(the Welker effect), then being the better player.

I have no doubt in my mind that someone like Davis who is one of the best athletes in the NFL would out produce and blossom if he was in a pass orientated offense like Greenbay or Denver or NE...
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Alex Smith didn't throw for 5000+ yards last season...
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Davis is one of the best athletes in the NFL, Gronkowski is just a lot better on the field. Gronkowski is still an outrageous athlete as well, and he's much better technically, and his hands are enormously better(might have the best hands in football).

Kind of like how Jerry Rice was way better than a lot of receivers that were better athletes.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Alex Smith didn't throw for 5000+ yards last season...
That was the main point... Gronkowski had Brady throwing the ball around... while Davis is dealing with a mediocre QB
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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I mentioned the offense because you specifically said the only reason that Gronk has better stats than Davis is because of the offense he's in. I think that is a terrible point which is why I mentioned the Patriot's usage of Gronk.
Where did I specifically say "the only reason" regarding Gronkowski having better receiving statistics than Davis has to do with the offense he's in? I believe this is what I said:

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He has better statistics because of the offense he's in and the QB that is throwing to him, but as far as other nuances like blocking, running routes, shedding defenders, or getting separation Gronkowski isn't necessarily better.
I simply implied that having Tom Brady throwing him the ball and being in a passing-oriented offense helps boost his value as a receiver. That's a fact. It's not to downgrade Gronkowski in some way either. I didn't ever say anything revolving around "the only reason" Gronkowski was better was because of that factor like you believe I did though.

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Their respective blocking ability is not really worth getting into this because ultimately blocking is far too subjective to really make a substantial argument beyond "My guy is better because I say so". All I can say is there are games when I watch the 49ers and Delanie Walker looks like a better blocker than Vernon Davis. I have never seen a TE dominate so thoroughly in blocking as I have with Gronk.
Well I'd say you are mistaken in your evaluation in regards to Walker looking like a better blocker than Davis...especially since he's not even used in that role very often. There have been a few times as a decoy where Walker has been used on effective blocks on a crackback type or so, but he's nowhere near the blocker that Davis is or ever will be. I remember an interview he had on KNBR (our local station here) where he was pretty much concerned when he came into the league regarding his blocking abilities and admitted he had trouble blocking NFL defenders and consistently struggled at in practice. Walker is practically considered a big receiver, and he was listed as that coming out of the college he was in.

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PFF and FO are fine until you consider that Gronk made PFF's All Pro team over Vernon despite them saying Vernon is playing the best football of his career, and with the entire narrative of Gronk's season being about how his hip injury is preventing him from dominating like he did in 2011. Also, if we go by PFF then we must also talk about how good of a pass rusher Manny Lawson is, since I know how much you 49ers fans love that topic.
Well one person has to make tight end on the All-Pro football squad for PFF. That doesn't necessarily mean that Gronk "does pretty much everything better" as you stated. He made their NFC Pro Bowl roster that was written up. And I believe this is the excerpt you're talking about, correct? I don't see anything about Gronkowski's hip injury being mentioned within the context of the narrative though. Not saying it isn't true, but I just don't see it there.

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Vernon Davis may feel aggrieved, but with only one spot we couldn’t ignore the 580 yards, seven touchdowns and excellent run blocking of ‘The Gronk’. In all honesty, both men are miles in front of the rest of the competition and deserve credit for their all-around play.
With the receiving statistics in hand, I would go with Gronkowski as well if I were making an All Pro list. But like I said earlier, it's not night and day between the two in regards to what they can do on the field, and this article seems to imply that very same notion with it's last sentence. This other article regarding their NFC Pro Bowl listing also raves about Davis and he was selected to their squad as well:

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Davis has been the cream of the crop as far as tight ends in the NFC go. His 374 yards won’t blow you away, but with just one dropped pass and no penalties, he’s improved massively on the mental lapses that once highlighted his game. Throw in some excellent run blocking and he’s a no brainer. Joining him is Gonzalez because even though he’s no great shakes in the run blocking department, he is our top graded receiver at the spot. Well worth your time.
And I believe FO has him ranked first in their DVOA rankings at that position, highlighting their placement of value of that player on a per play basis. Gronkowski is ranked third respectively.

Regarding Lawson, I'm not sure how that's relevant or helps your case, but feel free to talk about him if you want.

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The fact of the matter is besides wheel routes there isn't a substantial area where Vernon excels over Gronk. Even if we somehow came to the conclusion that Gronk and Davis were equivalent blockers, Gronk still unquestionably is the better redzone threat, has better hands, and is harder to bring down in the open field. Gronk is the standard by which all TE's are judged. It's really not even a debate outside of 49ers fans.
Right, but I could say the same thing about Patriots fans. I, and some of the other sources I've listed, don't believe it's night and day. You do. It is what it is.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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QB - Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay

RB - Adrian Peterson, Minnesota

TE - Rob Gronkowski, New England

OG - Jhari Evans, New Orleans

C - Maurkice Pouncey, Steelers




DE - JJ Watt, Houston

DE - Jason Pierre-Paul, New York

DT - Geno Atkins, Cincinnati

NT - Haloti Ngata, Baltimore

OLB - Clay Matthews, Green Bay

OLB - Von Miller, Denver

LB - Chad Greenway, Minnesota

ILB - Daryl Washington, Arizona

CB - Charles Tillman, Chicago

CB - Brandon Browner, Seattle

S - Dashon Goldson, 49ers
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco27 View Post
You have to look at pure Physical tools and the QB throwing them the ball.

Davis is a legit freak of nature when you take in speed, size and strength. He could be a WR if he shed a few pounds..

Gronk is more of your typical big body TE build.


The difference is one has a mediocre QB and is in an offense that is focused on running.


One has one of the best QBs to ever lace them up and in an offence that threw for 5000+ yards last season..

you do the math and realize that Gronk produces more because of the system(the Welker effect), then being the better player.

I have no doubt in my mind that someone like Davis who is one of the best athletes in the NFL would out produce and blossom if he was in a pass orientated offense like Greenbay or Denver or NE...
Pretty much nailed it. The fantastic receiving numbers would come if he had an All Pro passing him the rock and was featured in a more pass-oriented offense.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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Psh, VD isn't even a better receiver than Aaron Hernandez, much less close to Gronk's level, all he does is run wheel routes...
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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This is what PFF had to say about Vernon Davis:

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While hype has always followed Davis, this is comfortably the best we’ve ever seen him play. He’s our second-ranked tight end and there isn’t an area of his game that it isn’t impressive.
Yet he's still behind a guy who most people would say has been noticeably slowed by a hip injury all season.

Plus, there are the obvious flaws with using statistical means as a way of evaluating football players. Hence the Manny Lawson reference since as I'm sure you know PFF was quite fond of him as well. The only time people end up citing PFF or FO's is because they don't have a real argument to make, so they throw up some random number they find on the internet which are generated by some guy's opinion on how well a player played on a given play regardless of what the responsibility or situation was on that play.

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Right, but I could say the same thing about Patriots fans. I, and some of the other sources I've listed, don't believe it's night and day. You do. It is what it is.
You've listed PFF and FO. If you asked the general opinion I'm pretty sure you'd get results that show that it is in fact night and day.

The reason why I find your ranking of Vernon Davis as Gronkowski's equal as ridiculous is because it simply is. There are no if's in Gronkowski's game because he excels in EVERY aspect he can. You can try to use the QB argument as a defense of Davis, but in the end it's just another excuse in Davis's career of which there have been quite a few. In the end it's an lame excuse because the truth is TB had never been good at utilizing TE's before Gronk despite some pretty significant investment there. The kinds of routes TE's typically run are not his strengths as a passer. If you threw Gronk on a team like Denver today with Peyton Manning he'd become a more productive player.

In most games Rob Gronkowski is the best player of the 22 on the field, and that includes TB. Do you honestly get that feeling when watching Davis? I think it would be an overreach to say you do.

Sometimes as a fan you just need to admit that there are guys better than your guy even if your guy is very good. When Ngata came around I accepted that he was better than Wilfork. I've always thought a bunch of guys were better than Mankins. Hell I'm even coming around on the Aaron Rodgers-TB thing. Vernon Davis is a great TE and will probably make a bunch of pro bowls over the next 6-8 years, but he'll never be Gronk's equal. Just trust what you see.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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1.Gronk.
2. Graham
3. VD

And it's certainly night and day for everyone who isn't a homer 9er fan.
This is how I'd take them too. I think VD is a great TE, but Gronk is better. Its not a huge gap in some phases, but Gronk is just better. I'd also take Graham just because he is such an easy target for a qb. He doesn't touch the blocking of the other two here but he is just so easy to throw to with his size and reach.

VD might be the only good thing Mike Singletary did in SF.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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This is what PFF had to say about Vernon Davis:

Yet he's still behind a guy who most people would say has been noticeably slowed by a hip injury all season.

Plus, there are the obvious flaws with using statistical means as a way of evaluating football players. Hence the Manny Lawson reference since as I'm sure you know PFF was quite fond of him as well. The only time people end up citing PFF or FO's is because they don't have a real argument to make, so they throw up some random number they find on the internet which are generated by some guy's opinion on how well a player played on a given play regardless of what the responsibility or situation was on that play.

You've listed PFF and FO. If you asked the general opinion I'm pretty sure you'd get results that show that it is in fact night and day.
He's their second ranked tight end. Someone has to be first. Like I already mentioned, if you believe Gronkowski is better, that's a perfectly valid opinion. I don't have an issue with it, nor do I necessarily disagree either. I just personally don't believe their differences that set them apart as clear as night and day. PFF also mentioned that both are head and shoulders above everyone else right now.

And I really don't see what is wrong with referencing two sites that are well known for their football analysis and actually watch the games in detail. I'm not doing it to save face on the internet or to using their information as end-all/be-all factual arguments in something subjective. Nor do I agree with everything those places publish (I'm sure I wouldn't agree with some of what is reported regarding Manny Lawson, and I certainly didn't agree with their assessment of Dashon Goldson last year). I'm simply using their information, which in this case I agree with, to add to my opinion. And it's not just about numbers either as I only did that with FO. With PFF I used excerpts from their writers. From their perspective they don't seem to believe that it's "night and day" between Davis and Gronkowski.

As a matter of fact, I asked one their writers myself directly about their first and second ranked tight ends, Davis and Gronkowski, and if he believed the difference between them was night and day. I think he's one of the most frequent contributors there. Here was his response:

Quote:
Me personally no. I think Gronkowski is probably favored a little by the system he's in and the players around. Davis has had less opportunities to make plays but is playing as well as he ever has.
I'd be surprised if he is a raging 49ers homer just because he doesn't believe the difference between the two is as vast as night and day. And that's a "general opinion" in the form of a basic question from someone who watches a good amount of football like a lot of other people. Not saying his opinion is factually correct and you may not agree with it, but it is a general one, and just because it's from someone who works at PFF doesn't mean it can't be considered.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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For anyone to believe Delaine Walker is a better blocker than VD tells me all I need to know about their player assessment and proves you haven't paid nearly enough attention to warrant who does what and how with the Niners. That's like me saying Hernandez is much better and more impressive blocker than Gronk because he made one nice crack-back block.

I said my peace and I'm going to leave it at that. Some ppl look at the stats as the sole judge in these types of argument. All I'm saying is its not that cut and dry just to compare receiving yards and TD receptions. A lot factors are in play when comes to receiving production and things of that nature that can't be accounted for. And when I brought up PFF and FO, I was talking in terms of blocking metrics, not as a overall assessment of each players value as a whole.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Well yes, everyone is going to have a different opinion. There is a good amount that has been said that I certainly don't agree with and I'm sure the feeling is mutual, and it is what it is. Whatever.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Rob Gronkowski very well could be the #1 TE in the NFL. With that said, Vernon Davis has been regarded as one of the best every-down blocking TE's in the NFL since 2008. ESPN's Mike Sando has written several blogs about the dominance of Davis as a blocker.

Interestingly, Davis' "freak"-ness doesn't include size. When he was being utilized regularly as an end-line blocker (2007-2010) Davis was much bulkier and it lead to him being very stiff in his routes and less fluid with his ball skills. Since late-2010-present, Davis has become a much leaner athlete. It has translated to two things... He is a MUCH, MUCH better receiver and is less utilized as a primary blocker in running and passing plays.

IF Davis was 6'6 265 and played in New England he'd be....


I don't care to even address the hypothetical. He isn't that size, and he doesn't play for that team. I'd be absolutely ECSTATIC to have either player on my favorite team and I'm sure both teams are as well.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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9ers fans. What can be done?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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9ers fans. What can be done?
The troll in you is strong, my friend.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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The troll in you is strong, my friend.
Seriously. Giants fans are obsessed with us.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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Seriously. Giants fans are obsessed with us.
Did somebody say Giants fans?

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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:49 AM    (permalink
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vernon underrated IMO, but not on gronks level...

i see vernon below Witten, ToGo, Finley, Gates, etc...and I honestly think at this point Vernon is better than all those guys (even w/ his so-so numbers this year)...but if you think about what Gronk and Graham did last year and that they are young players who could conceivably be getting better, I dont think Vernon is quite on that level.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:10 AM    (permalink
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QB - Ben Roethlisberger - quietly having an incredible season and is the reason the Steelers survived the injury bug (rodgers kinda doing the same thing, but took a few weeks to get going)

HB - Adrian Peterson - holy crap what an incredible recovery. He is running as well as ever, and hasnt been fumbling this year either.

FB - Marcell Reece - going a different direction from Vonta Leach (best blocking FB no doubt), Reece is a major factor in the pass game.

WR - AJ Green - simply having a great year. doesnt have a great QB or team, but is really doing something special. seeing a second year guy with receiving skills like this is rare.

TE - Gronk - not doing what he was doing last year, but still the best and most productive TE in the league

OT - Jake Long - Tannehill is coming along way faster than could have possibly been expected and his protection has a lot to do with it.

OG - Jahri Evans - playing great as always, plenty of problems in NO but not him

C - Chris Myers, helped the Texans line stay as one of the best units even with losing the right side of the line.

DE - JJ Watt - having maybe the best defensive season ever?

DT - Henry Melton - surrounded by so many other great players, he doesnt get talked about enough. Very disruptive interior presence.

OLB - DeMarcus Ware - nothing new here. Clay started off faster, but Demarcus is more consistent. Ware sets the standard for productivity

MLB - Patrick Willis - doesnt have the best numbers, but is the leader of the league's best defense, makes plenty of big plays, and almost never makes a mistake or misses a tackle.

CB: Charles Tillman - out there playing hard-nosed defense and setting a great example for all the young DBs on the team, who are all having great seasons

S: Dashon Goldon - still laying huge licks out there and does a great job of not leading with his helmet/making illegal hits...hes been flagged a few times where he hit guys so hard refs thought it musta been illegal but the replay showed it to be a phantom call...also continuing to show improvement in coverage.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:55 AM    (permalink
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vernon underrated IMO, but not on gronks level...

i see vernon below Witten, ToGo, Finley, Gates, etc...and I honestly think at this point Vernon is better than all those guys (even w/ his so-so numbers this year)...but if you think about what Gronk and Graham did last year and that they are young players who could conceivably be getting better, I dont think Vernon is quite on that level.
Ness never said VD was on Gronk's level. He objected to the not even close remark.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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I don't know maybe I'm crazy but I'd still take Graham over Gronk in terms of TE rankings. They are two different types of TE's, so I guess it's all relative to what you want out of your TE and how you want to utilize them, but I just love Graham and his game.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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I don't know maybe I'm crazy but I'd still take Graham over Gronk in terms of TE rankings. They are two different types of TE's, so I guess it's all relative to what you want out of your TE and how you want to utilize them, but I just love Graham and his game.
graham aint been healthy this year tho


and i didnt actually bother to read thru the entire vernon argument in detail, was just puttin my 2 cents in there
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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and i didnt actually bother to read thru the entire vernon argument in detail, was just puttin my 2 cents in there
Synopsis.

Someone said Gronkowski was clearly better than Davis at everything other than wheel-routes. Ness argued the over-generalization. 49ers' fans ridiculed.

/synopsis
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