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Old 11-09-2012, 11:09 AM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
Synopsis.

Someone said Gronkowski was clearly better than Davis at everything other than wheel-routes. Ness argued the over-generalization. 49ers' fans ridiculed.

/synopsis
To be fair my original question was what VD did better than Gronk other than run that wheel route, a little hyperbole to point out that VD's only advantage lies in his explosiveness down the field, while Gronk is the better redzone target, has better hands, runs better routes, is plenty explosive himself, and VD's excellent blocking not withstanding, is a more overwhelming blocker as well. Gronk's the standard while VD and Graham are 2a and 2b over the old folks, Witten, Gonzo and Gates.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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To be fair my original question was what VD did better than Gronk other than run that wheel route, a little hyperbole to point out that VD's only advantage lies in his explosiveness down the field, while Gronk is the better redzone target, has better hands, runs better routes, is plenty explosive himself, and VD's excellent blocking not withstanding, is a more overwhelming blocker as well. Gronk's the standard while VD and Graham are 2a and 2b over the old folks, Witten, Gonzo and Gates.
Gronk might be better then VD in those categories but I also don't think there is a huge gap there. I also don't think Graham is a 2a, you could make a much stronger argument that Gronk is 1a and Graham is 1b. Both are young and getting better but Graham is still a much more raw player and I think he's got more room to grow before he maxes out his potential.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Why is it that every single one of these threads turns into a fight btw 49er fans and everyone else?

It's getting really annoying.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Why is it that every single one of these threads turns into a fight btw 49er fans and everyone else?

It's getting really annoying.
No, we're just all biased and crazy and jealous.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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I think I should write a children's book titled, "If Brandon Weeden was 22."
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Why is it that every single one of these threads turns into a fight btw 49er fans and everyone else?

It's getting really annoying.
Apparentluy it's because us Giants fans have a thing for 49'ers fan. I know I want to date Borat at all but he's looking way too much into that.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:07 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Apparentluy it's because us Giants fans have a thing for 49'ers fan. I know I want to date Borat at all but he's looking way too much into that.
You're gunna have to settle for Brent, cause me and Borat have chemistry.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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You're gunna have to settle for Brent, cause me and Borat have chemistry.
But, but, ... every time I start talking about baseball, you make me sleep on the couch!
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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Apparentluy it's because us Giants fans have a thing for 49'ers fan. I know I want to date Borat at all but he's looking way too much into that.
It's our eternal struggle over ownership of the name "Giants"
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
No, we're just all biased and crazy and jealous.
Well some of you Saints fans are straight up crazy. Remember this guy?

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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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We're not as crazy as you obviously. Our TE is better than Vernon Davis, and we still don't think he's better than Gronk.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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But, but, ... every time I start talking about baseball, you make me sleep on the couch!
If you were a little more willing to make it up to me in other ways, I could tune it out n let you say baseball things at me, just for you.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
We're not as crazy as you obviously. Our TE is better than Vernon Davis, and we still don't think he's better than Gronk.
My opinion stating that I don't believe the differences between Vernon Davis and Rob Gronkowski are as vast as night and day is crazy to you?



Well, very well then.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:46 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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If one is clearly better than the other, doesn't that make it night n day?

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 11-09-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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We're not as crazy as you obviously. Our TE is better than Vernon Davis, and we still don't think he's better than Gronk.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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If one is clearly better than the other, doesn't that make it night n day?
Nope. It doesn't. For instance, I thought Jerry Rice was better than Cris Carter and Sterling Sharpe, but I wouldn't say the difference between them was night and day like it was compared to someone like JJ Stokes. As a matter of fact I thought Carter did some things better than Rice. As an all around receiver though, I believed Rice was better.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 11-09-2012, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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I think it's crazy if you can't see the difference between a guy who is a pro bowler, and a guy who is dominant, and an all time great(at a super young age, no less).
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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I think it's crazy if you can't see the difference between a guy who is a pro bowler, and a guy who is dominant, and an all time great(at a super young age, no less).
I do see the differences. I just don't believe Gronkowski is head and shoulders above Vernon Davis in terms of what he can do as a player. Hey you believe I'm crazy for having my opinion regarding the matter and I believe you're crazy for having yours. Perhaps we should leave it at that then.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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I do see the differences. I just don't believe Gronkowski is head and shoulders above Vernon Davis in terms of what he can do as a player. Hey you believe I'm crazy for having my opinion regarding the matter and I believe you're crazy for having yours. Perhaps we should leave it at that then.
I'm fine with leaving it here too. Gronk seems to be rounding back into form. Perhaps we'll just give it another season. You'll eventually come around
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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I'm fine with leaving it here too. Gronk seems to be rounding back into form. Perhaps we'll just give it another season. You'll eventually come around


Okie dokie :)
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe I missed this debate. Even more unbelievable is that I don't actually agree with me fellow 49ers fans. Gronk and Graham are both definitely better than Davis, imo, and I would put a healthy Witten ahead of his as well. Davis is an athletic freak, obviously, and an amazing blocker but his receiving skills, route-running and pass-catching, are nowhere as good as those guys. People forget that Davis had serious drop problems last year. He seems to have it under control this year but he still had a couple of big drops early in the season.

Don't get me wrong, I think Davis would put up similar numbers to Gronk and Graham in a similar offense but I don't think he is quite as good as a receiver as those two.

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Why is it that every single one of these threads turns into a fight btw 49er fans and everyone else?

It's getting really annoying.
Its not. This is the generalization that frustrates me. Ness argues a bit, and several people egg him because they know he doesn't have an off switch. The 49ers have several very active posters who join the discussion, and it becomes a back-and-forth. Sad.

Especially when people say things like this...
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
No, we're just all biased and crazy and jealous.
It's just an outright lie, and gets us as fans of the 49ers fired up. It's basically matches and gasoline at this point.



http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.a...iving&rank=232
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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I was curious to ask another person's general opinion regarding the matter. I got in touch with Aaron Schatz from Football Outsiders, for which he is the president and founder. You may have seen him on NFL Network's Top Ten or ESPN every once in a while. I wanted to know his stance on both players and if he believed the difference was indeed as vast as night and day. His response:

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Ness,

First of all, I am always happy to answer a question from someone who says "assuming you have a moment to answer because I'm sure you are a busy guy." You would have no idea how many readers assume that I'm not a busy guy or that I have to answer their question immediately or that there are like 25 of us working here.

Anyway, you are right. I think Vernon Davis has not been as good as Gronk, but the difference is not huge. Both of them are excellent blockers as well as receivers. Obviously Davis does not play with a quarterback of the same quality and it hurts his numbers. I think also it's an issue that Davis took a couple years to develop and many people felt he had an attitude problem early, while Gronk was Gronk immediately upon his arrival in the NFL.
Clearly a 49ers homer.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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People forget that Davis had serious drop problems last year. He seems to have it under control this year but he still had a couple of big drops early in the season.
I believe Vernon Davis has been credited with one dropped ball this year.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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