Bjoern Werner, DE, FSU

[BigBanger]

He gets off the ball quick and has a better first step than Carradine. He's really powerful and plays with great pad level. Good motor. Technique is there. He's a stud. Haven't really watched much college football this year, but if I compare him to other DEs in the past... he's up there. 1st Round is no question. He'll go very high.

If people can't imagine him standing up, then all you have to do is watch. Because he does it. And he looks fine doing it.

[AntoinCD]

Werner is really growing on me even though his numbers have tailed off after a hot start to the season.

I think his burst off the ball is tremendous and probably second only to Mingo's in this class. He does a good job of bending by the OT although I would like to see more counters from him.

He does a nice job in the run game. He has a good technique of getting his hands inside his blocker and steering him and then disengaging.

I think right now he is probably a definite top 15 pick and likely top 10 pick

[Babylon]

^

His big early numbers were against cupcakes so it figured they'd tail off. When i watch this guy he comes across as someone that is still pretty new to the game and the effort i wouldnt exactly call all out. As the game goes on he's still there and still making an impact.

Let's not get too carried away as far as Werner being a top dozen pick but i think as far as pass rushers go he's right up there in this class.

[Iamcanadian]

I love the guy but top 20 is out of the question. Great DE class might see him slip out of round 1 but he'll be a solid pro with his best years still in front of him.

[Babylon]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

I love the guy but top 20 is out of the question. Great DE class might see him slip out of round 1 but he'll be a solid pro with his best years still in front of him.

When you get a chance tell me more about this so called great DE class.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by Babylon

When you get a chance tell me more about this so called great DE class.

I think this DE class is as good as there has been in a long time. You have all round ends, high upside pass rushers, strong dependable ends.

When you have guys like

Barkevious Mingo
Bjoern Werner
Dion Jordan (potentially)
Sam Montgomery
Damontre Moore
Ezekial Ansah
Alex Okafor
Tank Carradine
Margus Hunt
Corey Lemonier
Michael Buchanan
William Gholston
John Simon

all as possible top 75 picks that is a pretty strong draft. You may not have a guy with the ability of Julius Peppers or Jadeveon Clowney next year but this class is stocked. It's a good year to have a need at DE

[phlysac]

DE + Seminole = Afraid

[MassNole]

Originally Posted by phlysac

DE + Seminole = Afraid

[YotoJets007]

Originally Posted by phlysac

DE + Seminole = Afraid

"DE + Bobby Bowden = Afraid" is more proper statement.


His weight is about 260 now. If he keeps eating right, 3-4 OLB is not out of wood.

[phlysac]

Originally Posted by MassNole

Facepalm all that you want...

Highly drafted DE/OLB prospects since 2000. I loved several of these guys. Why shouldn't I be wary?

Everette Brown
Lawrence Timmons
Kamerion Wimbley
Alonzo Jackson
Jamal Reynolds

It's not like the school would prevent me from selecting a player, but it can certainly cause for trepidation.

[MassNole]

Originally Posted by phlysac

Facepalm all that you want...

Highly drafted DE/OLB prospects since 2000. I loved several of these guys. Why shouldn't I be wary?

Everette Brown
Lawrence Timmons
Kamerion Wimbley
Alonzo Jackson
Jamal Reynolds

It's not like the school would prevent me from selecting a player, but it can certainly cause for trepidation.

Know what they all have in common? They were coached by the old staff, so they have absolutely no relevance to the current team and player development.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think that "player from a school" thing that worries evaluators transcends just one coaching staff.

You just need to find one really good one to disprove the notion (e.g. Rodgers proves Tedford QBs can succeed in NFL). Werner's got as good a shot as anybody from FSU.

[duesouth]

Originally Posted by Razor

I really like Werner, but he doesn't have the athleticism to be a truly dominant DE. Imo he's a solid second round pick right now. I like him, but he's not special.

I think he's over rated, so I agree with Razor. 8 sacks this year - 4 against Murray State, 1 against Savannah State, 1.5 against Wake Forest. Didn't have much luck against Seantrel Henderson in the Miami game - but did wear him out and had some joy late in the game - but overall I think I like Carradine a little better.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

I think this DE class is as good as there has been in a long time. You have all round ends, high upside pass rushers, strong dependable ends.

When you have guys like

Barkevious Mingo
Bjoern Werner
Dion Jordan (potentially)
Sam Montgomery
Damontre Moore
Ezekial Ansah
Alex Okafor
Tank Carradine
Margus Hunt
Corey Lemonier
Michael Buchanan
William Gholston
John Simon

all as possible top 75 picks that is a pretty strong draft. You may not have a guy with the ability of Julius Peppers or Jadeveon Clowney next year but this class is stocked. It's a good year to have a need at DE

I agree and you can add Jefferson of Texas as well.

I think it reflects the style of college football today. More and more college HC's are putting their better athletes at DE to slow down college passing attacks.

[TuckNole]

Originally Posted by duesouth

I think he's over rated, so I agree with Razor. 8 sacks this year - 4 against Murray State, 1 against Savannah State, 1.5 against Wake Forest. Didn't have much luck against Seantrel Henderson in the Miami game - but did wear him out and had some joy late in the game - but overall I think I like Carradine a little better.

Except his total QB disruptions have not tailed off. He is still getting a lot of QB hurries and PBUs on batted balls, all of which are part of pass rush.

You have to look at overall QB disruptions.

[87Canes]

From everything I've watched on Bjoern, the kid seems legit. He has various moves, doesn't get hooked by the OL often and has a high motor that keeps him going play after play. Get him in the hands of a Jim Washburn and he'll be a force to be reckoned with in the NFL for years to come.

[duesouth]

Originally Posted by TuckNole

Except his total QB disruptions have not tailed off. He is still getting a lot of QB hurries and PBUs on batted balls, all of which are part of pass rush.

You have to look at overall QB disruptions.

Looked at him closely on Thursday night and he did very little. Carradine played much better - which is the same story for all 4 FSU games I've seen this year. Detailed study has not been kind to Werner.

[TuckNole]

Originally Posted by duesouth

Looked at him closely on Thursday night and he did very little. Carradine played much better - which is the same story for all 4 FSU games I've seen this year. Detailed study has not been kind to Werner.

Completely disagree. Detailed study makes Werner look like a top 10 pick and Carradine look like a borderline first rounder.

Carradine is an athletic freak, probably the most freakish at his position this draft, who is very very raw, with limited pass moves. Also, he is not explosive off the line at all. But once he does get going, he is hard to defend 1-1 with his athleticism and motor.

Werner is a complete technician. He has a much broader array of pass moves plays incredibly heads up. I've been watching FSU DE's for 20 years and I don't think I've ever seen one as football- smart as Werner. As Jimbo says, his instincts are off the charts. He knows when a screen is coming almost the second the ball is snapped.

If you've watched FSU's games this year, you'd definitely note ALL of the max protect double teams go to Werner's side and they leave Tank 1-1. Werner is more valuable to FSU than Tank in that fact alone... the offense is willing to dedicate 2 defenders to him on a lot of their playbook.

Pass rush isn't about just sacks, as has been noted time and again. Football Outsiders SackSEER predictive model uses several pieces of data to predict NFL production in DE's and QB hurries and PBUs are just as much apart of pass rush as sacks. Werner's numbers when you include PBUs are just crazy.

If a team is looking for a year 1 starter in the first round, you take Werner. If they want an athletic freak who they can mold and possibly end up feared in starting in year 2, go with Tank.

[duesouth]

It's the whole beauty of this that 2 people can look at the same person and differ so much!

I know against Miami they didn't double him much. They left him 1 on 1 with Henderson and he didn't have the length to get off him. Didn't have the speed to turn the corner either. Henderson got away with it a few times because of his arm length, more than foot speed, but he still got the job done. Werner did have a sack late against him, but I think that was more he wore him out. Had half a sack against a single team TE block.

Doesn't set the edge as well as Carradine. If a blocker gets on Carradine, he drops his hips even lower and more often than not gets off the block. Sets the edge extremely well. Werner doesn't - gives up the edge too much.

I'm not saying Werner is a poor prospect, I have him as a late 1/early 2 guy - who you might take a little earlier because of the effort, hustle and love of the game.

But I think you can do more with Carradine because he's longer and plays lower. Both still have upside.

Time will tell as ever!!

[TuckNole]

I like the way Werner sets the edge, its just that FSU gives him a lot more in terms of assignments. As Jimbo says, they kind of just let Tank freelance quite a bit.

Every week in his weekly press conference, Jimbo finds something to complain about with Carradine. He's missing this, or missing that, but he still great. He has nothing but praise for Werner, and has said he is one of the most instinctive players he's ever been around.

It should also be noted that Werner has had some mid-flu stuff off and on. He was getting IV's for 48 hours before the Clemson game.

They are both really great players. I think both would have been the #1 DE in last year's class. Who I would pick largely depends on what I need and what kind of system I'm prepared to put them into.

[Babylon]

Was huge against Florida. Granted the Florida offensive line isn't much at pass blocking and their QB tends to hold the ball too long but this game could catapult him into that top dozen pick area.

[y.f.s.]

Lol at the unathletic comments and Kampman comparisons. His first step is unreal. Not overly interested in playing the run, but still very active. He is Osi Umenyiora to a T.

[y.f.s.]

Originally Posted by duesouth

It's the whole beauty of this that 2 people can look at the same person and differ so much!

I know against Miami they didn't double him much. They left him 1 on 1 with Henderson and he didn't have the length to get off him. Didn't have the speed to turn the corner either. Henderson got away with it a few times because of his arm length, more than foot speed, but he still got the job done. Werner did have a sack late against him, but I think that was more he wore him out. Had half a sack against a single team TE block.

Doesn't set the edge as well as Carradine. If a blocker gets on Carradine, he drops his hips even lower and more often than not gets off the block. Sets the edge extremely well. Werner doesn't - gives up the edge too much.

I'm not saying Werner is a poor prospect, I have him as a late 1/early 2 guy - who you might take a little earlier because of the effort, hustle and love of the game.

But I think you can do more with Carradine because he's longer and plays lower. Both still have upside.

Time will tell as ever!!

Eh, I think Carradine's pad level is the worst part of his game. Good hand strike and strength and he can jolt, but once the OT resets Tank can't do anything because he is upright and can't roll his hips.

[Bengals78]

Originally Posted by y.f.s.

Lol at the unathletic comments and Kampman comparisons. His first step is unreal. Not overly interested in playing the run, but still very active. He is Osi Umenyiora to a T.

But he is white. He can't be athletic!
He has to have a high motor!

[duesouth]

Carradine tore his ACL Saturday, day three at best then.