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Old 11-13-2012, 11:00 AM    (permalink
Brown Leader
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This thread's an interesting reread. My top 10 now:

1. Tyler Wilson
2. Matt Barkley
3. Geno Smith
4. E.J. Manuel
5. Tyler Bray*
6. Logan Thomas*
7. Colin Klein
8. Mike Glennon
9. Aaron Murray*
10 Ryan Nassib

Wilson, Barkley and Smith have all taken a step back-Wilson predictably so and Smith after taking giants steps forward but has shown some accuracy issues in their skid. James Franklin's been a disappointment to me. He changed his mechanics to a flat footed stance before he throws-it's ugly. Thomas taken a few steps back but that Hokie team is pretty bad overall and he's got no weapons this year. The real riser has been Manuel. I wonder if #1 overall isn't out of the question with him.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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1. Tyler Wilson
2. Geno Smith
3. Matt Barkley
4. EJ Manuel
5. Tyler Bray
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brown Leader View Post
This thread's an interesting reread. My top 10 now:

1. Tyler Wilson
2. Matt Barkley
3. Geno Smith
4. E.J. Manuel
5. Tyler Bray*
6. Logan Thomas*
7. Colin Klein
8. Mike Glennon
9. Aaron Murray*
10 Ryan Nassib

Wilson, Barkley and Smith have all taken a step back-Wilson predictably so and Smith after taking giants steps forward but has shown some accuracy issues in their skid. James Franklin's been a disappointment to me. He changed his mechanics to a flat footed stance before he throws-it's ugly. Thomas taken a few steps back but that Hokie team is pretty bad overall and he's got no weapons this year. The real riser has been Manuel. I wonder if #1 overall isn't out of the question with him.
I like EJ way more than most, but that's just excessive.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Leader View Post
This thread's an interesting reread. My top 10 now:

1. Tyler Wilson
2. Matt Barkley
3. Geno Smith
4. E.J. Manuel
5. Tyler Bray*
6. Logan Thomas*
7. Colin Klein
8. Mike Glennon
9. Aaron Murray*
10 Ryan Nassib

Wilson, Barkley and Smith have all taken a step back-Wilson predictably so and Smith after taking giants steps forward but has shown some accuracy issues in their skid. James Franklin's been a disappointment to me. He changed his mechanics to a flat footed stance before he throws-it's ugly. Thomas taken a few steps back but that Hokie team is pretty bad overall and he's got no weapons this year. The real riser has been Manuel. I wonder if #1 overall isn't out of the question with him.
Here's the thing with E.J., when it comes to the Combine he will have all of the measurables that teams drool over. When it comes to interviewing, he will again be absolutely stellar and wow teams. Then it comes time to look at the film where one game he can look like a more intelligent version of Cam Newton, then another game where he makes Vince Young's decision making look All Pro. Hell he can do that inside an individual game, look at VT for a prime example. Early on he drastically under threw a sure TD pass to Greg Dent (who had to make an amazing play to catch the ball) then threw a bad interception 3 plays later costing them at least 3 points (even if O'Leary caught the ball it wasn't a TD). Then came the 2 minute drives where he looked absolutely fantastic in leading FSU to a come from behind victory in one of the most hostile environments in the country.

He has tremendous accuracy short to mid-range, and barring a major collapse the next 4 games he will graduate with the highest completion percentage in ACC history (besting Matt Schaub and Philip Rivers). On deep balls he can make one throw that drops your jaw (see the TD pass to Rodney Smith vs. Clemson), then the next deep ball throws a duck. He has really cut down on his mistakes, of the 5 INTs he has thrown this season, 3 hit receivers in the hands and should have been caught, only 1 of those 3 was a bad decision. The INT vs. N.C. State was easily the worst mistake he has made this season, and the one vs. BC came when FSU was already up big and he was just being greedy (Fisher's words).

His biggest flaw is his stubbornness to use his legs when the pocket breaks down or even worse the E.J. spin where he tries spinning away from a defender and loses another 5 yards. What is strange about this is his first 2 years it was not the case, he would use his legs and get out of the pocket and pick up big yards with his legs. He did this vs. Clemson this year, but other than that it is hard to say why he does it.

Ultimately, if Chip Kelly goes to the NFL, Manuel would probably be the most desirable QB for his offense out of this crop of rookies. That could be a scenario where he comes a First Rounder, possibly even the first QB taken. Or some team just falls in love with him at the Combine and believes they can fix the things Jimbo Fisher could not (that would take one helluva coaching job).
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Here is how I would rank them as of today:

1. Tyler Wilson
2. Matt Barkley
3. Mike Glennon
4. Landry Jones
5. Geno Smith
6. Zac Dysert
7. Collin Klein
8. E.J. Manuel
9. Sean Renfree

As other have said and I agree with Wilson is more or less having issues due to a team in great disarray. That whole team is a wreck and they lost 3 WRs to the NFL last year. He has done pretty well all things considered. Put on his junior tape and he looks very good. He has all the physical ability, high character and is a team guy - he will get rave reviews during the pre-draft process.

Matt Barkley is a guy I seem to like more than most here. He is a victim of overexposure. I like the fact he actually throws the ball down field - i think he throws a good deep ball and his arm strength is more than serviceable. He is a smart, experienced 4 year starter in a pro-style offense.

Mike Glennon is probably the biggest boom-bust guy. Physically he has it all in terms of what you want in the QB position. He has the size and arm strength. The streaky accuracy leaves something to be desired but some of that can be attributed to the supporting cast dropping passes. I think he is worth a 1st round pick if he can take some time to develop and polish the weaker aspects of his game.

Landry Jones seems really like a forgotten player. He has all the physical tools and owns all of Oklahoma's passing records. He reminds me of Matt Schaub - a good QB who can be a cog in an offense but will never reach elite status.

Geno Smith - I am probably his biggest critic. He does show accuracy and touch on passes when he has time. Once he is rattled or the system he plays in experiences adversity the wheels seem to come off. He struggles against good defenses and to me just screams system QB. I honestly don't see much difference between him and Brandon Weeden.

Just random thoughts on the other ones - If Colin Kaepernick can be a second round pick I see no reason Klein could not be picked int he 3rd/4th round range. Klein is a very similar player but his mechanics while flawed are much better than Kapernick's. Manuel I do not like at all - he benefits from being on a good team and playing in a weak conference. Sean Renfree would be a good developmental guy - he has the size and arm strength and has been under the tutelage of the same coach that once coached both Manning's.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Since many if not most of these prospects won't be drafted to teams expecting them to start as rookies, it could benefit them long term as far as development and sticking in the NFL.

This class as a group could turn out to be more successful than they look right now.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidGold View Post
Here is how I would rank them as of today:

1. Tyler Wilson
2. Matt Barkley
3. Mike Glennon
4. Landry Jones
5. Geno Smith
6. Zac Dysert
7. Collin Klein
8. E.J. Manuel
9. Sean Renfree

As other have said and I agree with Wilson is more or less having issues due to a team in great disarray. That whole team is a wreck and they lost 3 WRs to the NFL last year. He has done pretty well all things considered. Put on his junior tape and he looks very good. He has all the physical ability, high character and is a team guy - he will get rave reviews during the pre-draft process.

Matt Barkley is a guy I seem to like more than most here. He is a victim of overexposure. I like the fact he actually throws the ball down field - i think he throws a good deep ball and his arm strength is more than serviceable. He is a smart, experienced 4 year starter in a pro-style offense.

Mike Glennon is probably the biggest boom-bust guy. Physically he has it all in terms of what you want in the QB position. He has the size and arm strength. The streaky accuracy leaves something to be desired but some of that can be attributed to the supporting cast dropping passes. I think he is worth a 1st round pick if he can take some time to develop and polish the weaker aspects of his game.

Landry Jones seems really like a forgotten player. He has all the physical tools and owns all of Oklahoma's passing records. He reminds me of Matt Schaub - a good QB who can be a cog in an offense but will never reach elite status.

Geno Smith - I am probably his biggest critic. He does show accuracy and touch on passes when he has time. Once he is rattled or the system he plays in experiences adversity the wheels seem to come off. He struggles against good defenses and to me just screams system QB. I honestly don't see much difference between him and Brandon Weeden.

Just random thoughts on the other ones - If Colin Kaepernick can be a second round pick I see no reason Klein could not be picked int he 3rd/4th round range. Klein is a very similar player but his mechanics while flawed are much better than Kapernick's. Manuel I do not like at all - he benefits from being on a good team and playing in a weak conference. Sean Renfree would be a good developmental guy - he has the size and arm strength and has been under the tutelage of the same coach that once coached both Manning's.
Explain these terms, please.

Also, why is Geno Smith a system QB, but Landry Jones is not? Systems are incredibly similar. They're both Leach derivatives.

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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SolidGold, Renfree is a nice college player, but he doesn't have the prerequisite pro arm strength.

Although I thought the same thing about Dalton...
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Looking at this year's QB class makes you realize why Washington sacrificed what they did to move up to number 2 overall last year.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Explain these terms, please.

Also, why is Geno Smith a system QB, but Landry Jones is not? Systems are incredibly similar. They're both Leach derivatives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensi...an_football%29

Here ya go...

I feel the Oklahoma offense has more balance to it than WVUs which seems like more of an air it out offense.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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If I wanted to read a Wikipedia entry, I would have looked it up myself. YOU used the terms, YOU seem adamant about making it the basis of your argument, so YOU define it. When I hear/read the terms "pro style offense" or "system QB", I usually just assume the person is speaking in cliches and scouting by narrative.

Quote:
I feel the Oklahoma offense has more balance to it than WVUs which seems like more of an air it out offense.
Okay, so now I know you're just talking in cliches.

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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The term "pro style" is typically just used to describe any offense where the QB takes snaps from under center, and utilizes 21-personnel. Although that has changed over the years as offenses are using more 3 and 4 WR sets, and the percentage of time a lot of QB's spend in the shotgun now approaches 65% of the time or more even in the NFL.

It has nothing to do with literally running a "professional" offense. There's no such thing as a "professional" offense.... football evolves through innovation. Every offense in the CFL is a "professional" offense, because they're professionals... but it's more "gimmicky" than almost anything you'll see in college due to the extremely wide splits by the WR's and playing 3 down football.

The offenses being run in college football nowdays prepare these kids more for throwing the football at the next level more than it ever has in any point in history. Mainly due to throwing the football all over the place. It even starts at the high school level where offenses are allowing QB's to throw the ball all over the place. It wasn't always that way.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by y.f.s. View Post
If I wanted to read a Wikipedia entry, I would have looked it up myself. YOU used the terms, YOU seem adamant about making it the basis of your argument, so YOU define it. When I hear/read the terms "pro style offense" or "system QB", I usually just assume the person is speaking in cliches and scouting by narrative.



Okay, so now I know you're just talking in cliches.
Yep just talking cliches. I just go by what I see.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:20 AM    (permalink
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Just don't see how Matt Barkley is not the #1 QB. He's going to blow away GM's at the combine in the interviews. His arm is not a bee bee gun like some have claimed. He can make all the throws.

Barkley has really sold me on his leadership skills. I think he has everything you could want there. His work ethic is amazing and he will get guys to buy in with his people skills.

I think Barkley is bust-proof honestly. He's by far the best QB USC has ever had and he hasn't had the luxury of having a loaded roster this year like some of the other guys, but yet he still gets it done.

I pray to God Kansas City gets this kid, but he's exactly what we need.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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Personally my top three with QB's right now are....

1) Matt Barkley
2) Tyler Wilson
3) Geno Smith

Last edited by ChiefMojo : 11-14-2012 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Yep just talking cliches. I just go by what I see.
Then explain the real differences in the structure of the offense. I've asked you to explain what a "system QB" is in more than one thread. It's the drum YOU keep beating. JHL even gave you a head start. Jesus.

I'm not trying to pick on you or tell you that your conclusion is necessarily incorrect. I'm not trying to belittle you and tell you your opinion doesn't matter, or is stupid. I'm just pointing out that your methods and explanations are very, very shallow and cliche-driven.

A good starting point would be to start learning (in-depth) about different offensive systems, what the difference is between offensive STRUCTURE and the SYSTEMS themselves. Again, not trying to pick on your or be patronizing, I'm just going off of what you yourself have written on here.

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Old 11-14-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Just don't see how Matt Barkley is not the #1 QB. He's going to blow away GM's at the combine in the interviews. His arm is not a bee bee gun like some have claimed. He can make all the throws.

Barkley has really sold me on his leadership skills. I think he has everything you could want there. His work ethic is amazing and he will get guys to buy in with his people skills.

I think Barkley is bust-proof honestly. He's by far the best QB USC has ever had and he hasn't had the luxury of having a loaded roster this year like some of the other guys, but yet he still gets it done.

I pray to God Kansas City gets this kid, but he's exactly what we need.
I'm not a big fan of what I see from Barkley but he will get points for his leadership in interviews.

However I gotta disagree with your statement that he doesn't have the loaded roster. He may not have a top notch defense, however he is playing with a guy who has been described as USC's best ever WR in Lee and another likely first round pick at WR in Woods. It's not as if he's playing with a bunch of walk ons
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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i'm lukewarm on Barkley

I also really love Tyler Wilson. Like everything about him
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Since many if not most of these prospects won't be drafted to teams expecting them to start as rookies, it could benefit them long term as far as development and sticking in the NFL.

This class as a group could turn out to be more successful than they look right now.
I could see starters right away in Kansas City, Buffalo and Arizona. Personally i don't go for rookies starting from day one but it is a trend.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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I'm sold on Geo Smith as possibly the #1 overall pick, he goes through his progressions but sometimes holds the ball too long. Probably easily correctable by good coaching at the next level. Top 5 for sure.
Matt Barkley will be a 1st rounder but will have problems getting picked in the top 10. Definitely a top 15-20 guy. Reminds me of Matt Ryan.
Glennon is the other sure fire 1st rounder but likely a late one.
Possibly one other QB will slip into round 1, possibly E.J. Manuel.

As for Tyler Wilson, I still hold Petrino QB's with some suspicion. Was it the coach or the QB????

Not sure which junior QB's will declare.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Then explain the real differences in the structure of the offense. I've asked you to explain what a "system QB" is in more than one thread. It's the drum YOU keep beating. JHL even gave you a head start. Jesus.

I'm not trying to pick on you or tell you that your conclusion is necessarily incorrect. I'm not trying to belittle you and tell you your opinion doesn't matter, or is stupid. I'm just pointing out that your methods and explanations are very, very shallow and cliche-driven.

A good starting point would be to start learning (in-depth) about different offensive systems, what the difference is between offensive STRUCTURE and the SYSTEMS themselves. Again, not trying to pick on your or be patronizing, I'm just going off of what you yourself have written on here.
Pro-Style - QB lines up and takes snaps from under center/usually makes all the requisite 3/5/7 step drop throws as well as throws out of shotgun. This gives the QB more experience in the fundamentals of playing the position and theoretically should give them better mechanics when preparing them for the game at the pro level. When I think pro-style it is basically a well balanced offense. Offense will have a single back or two backs in the backfield and TE is a more valued target in the passing game. More emphasis on the traditional power running game.

Spread - QB in in shotgun almost all the time, running plays are primary of the option/draw variety, typically have 3 or more WRs on the field running patterns. Most patterns run are of the short to intermediate variety and are high percentage passes. This offense is dictated by tempo and keeping the defense on its heels. Mismatches are created by making plays in space.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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This QB battle between Wilson, Barkley, Smith, Glennon and Manuel will be decided most likely in senior bowl practices.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Don't forget the combine - that is how Sanchez got that bump to be picked 4th overall.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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While it is true that Senior Bowl practices and the Combine establish the final rankings for most prospects, I guess I should throw in Pro Days as well, some players have already established themselves in the elite area, so they can only disappoint.

I think right now Geo Smith is head and shoulders ahead of the others and would have to stink up the post season before anybody passes him. Smith and Barkley get blamed for a lot of their team woes, but face it, it's their team's defense that stinks.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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The real riser has been Manuel. I wonder if #1 overall isn't out of the question with him.
There's people dinging you for this comment, but I was watching tape of him last night and thinking exactly the same thing. I hadn't put a lot of time into watching him before then, and I was seeing all kinds of similarities to Cam Newton. He's not the runner Cam was, but the way he plays in the passing game is really similar. If I'm the Chiefs, I'm taking a really long look at him. Geno Smith is no shoo-in for the no. 1 spot, and I think right now I've got Manuel ahead of Tyler Wilson and Matt Barkley. I think those two are closer to their ceilings already, and Manuel has got some amazing physical tools. What I'm going to have to do now is really try to get a feel for his decision-making. He had a couple of errant throws in what I watched, but you can also see a major arm talent in addition to fantastic size and athleticism. Hangs pretty tough in the pocket, too, and definitely gives you a real element of escapability.
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