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Old 11-21-2012, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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First off go take a look at how many players are still there from last year. They have like 80% new team, FO, HC. So that argument holds no water. They didn't just insert Luck into the worst team in the NFL and all of a sudden start winning. They replaced the whole freaking team. As far as a being a better passer, how in the world can you even say that?RG3 has been better passing the ball than Luck. You could argue but I'd love to see the evidence behind your argument because there's hardly any there. Plus take into account Capgate and not having anything that resembles a #1 WR and allthe drops and injuries it's remarkable what he's been able to do.


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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
You say that as though the addition of Andrew Luck to the worst team in the league doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they're now 6-4. If it's not Luck, who's doing it in Indy? Reggie Wayne? No, he was there last year. Some mediocre running back? Their defense? No, no, no. It's Luck. Don't be ridiculous.



Sort of like the Colts last year?



Behold!



ahem: Andrew Luck is a better passer than Robert Griffin, and his coaching staff places more responsibility on him when it comes to the passing game. Robert Griffin has been better in fantasy football, but is more of a one-man highlight reel than someone who improves the play of his teammates. When you combine that with the fact that some of his running has gotten him injured and thus unavailable to play, and that Andrew Luck has 5 rushing touchdowns on his own, you have a logical argument for Luck having a more impressive rookie year. Everyone knows Robert Griffin can make a defender look bad in the open field and throw it deep. Andrew Luck is valuable in every aspect of the game and doesn't make his teammates play to his strengths, because he's good enough to play to theirs.



You don't think RGIII's various skills and, importantly, limitations affect which plays are called? You don't think that plays into evaluating him as a player?



Because... this is the NFL?
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Trouble reading defenses? 14/15 200 yards and 4 TD's begs to differ. The only games he even had bad stat was because of 16 drops combined. Where do u guys come up with this garbage? If you don't watch the guy then just admit it. Luck has looked much more like a rookie that RG3 and it's not even close.


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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Luck and RGIII are close, but I give the edge to Luck. RGIII still struggles to read defenses a little. He's amazing, don't get me wrong, but he needs to improve his ability to read defenses to continue at his pace for next year.

Luck doesn't look like a rookie at all. If you didn't know who he was, you'd never know he was a rookie. Luck is everything he was advertised to be. And he's doing it on a Colts team that was clearly the worst team in the NFL last year without Peyton. And he's 6-4.

It's very close. RGIII is a very close 2nd to me. But I'm going with Luck.

Martin is probably 3 on the list.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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RGIII doesn't read defenses the way Luck does. There's more to the passing game than yardage and completion percentage. You gotta analyze how they get their production.

RGIII benefits greatly from the read option scheme they run. Very often LBs get sucked in by it and the middle of the field is wide open. Now obviously RGIII's own talents are largely responsible for that, I give you that, but to have prolonged success throwing the ball he's going to have to make some adjustments to his game. Look at Cam Newton. He's basically this year's Cam Newton.

I want to see him kill the play at the line, adjust his protections, look off the safeties and drive the ball down the field to his 3rd read. Once he does that with consistency, then watch out. He's not there yet.

Luck is already there. That's what's so amazing about Luck.

Honestly, this is splitting hairs. Both qbs are amazing. I'm just more impressed with Luck's mental progression vs RGIII's physical abilities. RGIII makes wow plays. Lots of them. And let me make this clear, RGIII isn't just all physical skill. He has a lot to offer similar to Luck.

Luck is just more refined right now. That's all. It's really splitting hairs.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Well he does all those things so not sure why you say he doesn't.

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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
RGIII doesn't read defenses the way Luck does. There's more to the passing game than yardage and completion percentage. You gotta analyze how they get their production.

RGIII benefits greatly from the read option scheme they run. Very often LBs get sucked in by it and the middle of the field is wide open. Now obviously RGIII's own talents are largely responsible for that, I give you that, but to have prolonged success throwing the ball he's going to have to make some adjustments to his game. Look at Cam Newton. He's basically this year's Cam Newton.

I want to see him kill the play at the line, adjust his protections, look off the safeties and drive the ball down the field to his 3rd read. Once he does that with consistency, then watch out. He's not there yet.

Luck is already there. That's what's so amazing about Luck.

Honestly, this is splitting hairs. Both qbs are amazing. I'm just more impressed with Luck's mental progression vs RGIII's physical abilities. RGIII makes wow plays. Lots of them. And let me make this clear, RGIII isn't just all physical skill. He has a lot to offer similar to Luck.

Luck is just more refined right now. That's all. It's really splitting hairs.

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Old 11-21-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
I'm interested as to why Luck is getting so many votes despite RG3 being superior in almost all statistical categories except passing yardage.
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8...rt-griffin-iii

some clippings from the article:

Luck runs more successfully than Griffin. He's had 10 scrambles for first downs. Griffin has had nine.

Luck is asked to do more than Griffin and is doing it. His average pass completion travels 8.6 yards in the air, highest in the NFL. Griffin's is 5.8, one of the lowest.

Luck is more valuable to his team than Griffin. Sixty-nine percent of the Colts' passing yards are gained while the ball is in the air, the rest after the catch. Only 49 percent of the Skins' passing yards come through the air. In other words, Griffin still has his training wheels on. Luck has his license.

More than 20 percent of RG3's passes this season haven't even traveled across the line of scrimmage.


You mentioned Griffin having rushed for 6 td's but I guess you overlooked Luck rushing for 5 td's.

Check out what Adam Schefter had to say about Luck: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/...hefter-10-spot

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Old 11-21-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Trouble reading defenses? 14/15 200 yards and 4 TD's begs to differ. The only games he even had bad stat was because of 16 drops combined. Where do u guys come up with this garbage? If you don't watch the guy then just admit it. Luck has looked much more like a rookie that RG3 and it's not even close.
Ok, I get it. You finally have a qb who doesn't suck and you're excited. I don't blame you. I was the same way with Eli. But calm your ass down.

I watch RGIII plenty. I know how to read defenses. There are certain nuances of playing the position that you need to develop to have sustained success in this league. Right now RGIII doesn't have those traits, but he can develop them. I never said he can't. But give teams an offseason and a year's worth of tape to decipher Shanny's WCO/Readoption system that he runs with RGIII.

And you'll see RGIII become sophomore Cam Newton very quickly if he doesn't adjust his game.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Griffin had a hotter start and he puts up numbers running and with completion pct in Shanahan's offense, but Luck has been on fire and is winning games. Both deserve it, but Luck should/will get it.
THese guys are close statistically, although Luck is probably going to set the rookie record for passing yardage.

The difference IMO will be wins/losses.

If both players lead their teams to 8 wins, it's RGIII in a push.
If Luck wins 9+ games and gets Indy into the playoffs, Luck wins this award IMO in a sweep.

However if Kyle allowed Grif to throw the ball 40+ times a game, I think his stats would be freakish.

I can't hate on Luck.
I'm just glad the SKins appear finally to have a legit NFL QB for the next decade.

EDIT:

BTW I think some here are underestimating what RGIII is doing when he drops back to pass or is in the gun. He isn't passing exclusively out of a read option fake into the Oline.

Yes he looks off safeties. Yes he can go through his progressions and does. No I don't believe Luck is a more effective runner than Griffin. RGIII has been asked to execute more designed runs than Luck, but when RGIII is allowed to pick and choose on his own when to run, he's devastating. Almost all of of his own runs are first down plays to the sideline.

And yeah RGIII IS the Skins entire offense. Look at our roster and tell me one guy other than a healthy Fred Davis/Pierre Garcon or Trent Williams who is a starter for another team in the league??

I think those who don't watch entire Skins game every Sunday have a mistaken impression the offense being run early in the year is the same one being run now.
Kyle's playbook is transitioning to more of what he ran in Houston, and less plays where the QB is the 2nd RB.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Can we give it to Luck this year and RG3 next year since all of the rookie QBs will suck? /sarcasm
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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According to Jon Gruden, it's gotta be Colin Kaepernick.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Well neither of you have obviously watched the redskins this season.
You gotta love the logic around here sometimes. So if you vote for Andrew Luck for RoY you haven't seen the Redskins play this year and you also mean that RGIII sucks. Obviously.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
based on what? you've mentioned some stats and then basically put your fingers in your ear and said 'nu-uh!' in an ever more shrill voice.

*you* watch him, talk about plays, find something on youtube, whatever.



agreed. they're both fantastic, but if either can put his team in the playoffs, he'll win running away.
Tell me if luck has come close to this award sheet.

http://blog.redskins.com/2012/11/21/...#more-19991971

Let's see RG3 has won Rookie of the week 4 times now (maybe more), became the only player in NFL HISTORY to win OPOTW in his rookie debut and twice in a rookie season. He just broke the Rookie record for QBR and tied the NFL all time record.

He has just as many passing TD's, 9 less INT's, a better rating, 30+ point better QBR, better comp %, 5x more rushing yards and more rushing TD's than Luck. The only thing Luck has on him is yards so WTF do I have to prove?

I'll dig around for the interview that Kyle states what RG3 does but only when I get some time.

Last edited by jsagan77 : 11-21-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Trouble reading defenses? 14/15 200 yards and 4 TD's begs to differ. The only games he even had bad stat was because of 16 drops combined. Where do u guys come up with this garbage? If you don't watch the guy then just admit it. Luck has looked much more like a rookie that RG3 and it's not even close.
Luck has had more dropped passes this season than RGIII has (30-24).

70% of RGIII's passes have been 9 yards or less past the line of scrimmage, compared to 52% of Luck's passes. When all you throw are short passes, you're going to have a higher completion percentage and fewer turnovers.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Tell me if luck has come close to this award sheet.
Luck has the rookie single game passing yards record. He has the most 300+ yard passing games as a rookie (5) with 6 games to go.

He's on pace to break the following rookie records:
- Most passing yards
- Most completions in a season.
- Most pass attempts in a season.

Also, last I heard, the Colts lead the league in 3rd down conversions of 10 yds or more. For a rookie that's pretty darn impressive.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P-L View Post
Luck has had more dropped passes this season than RGIII has (30-24).

70% of RGIII's passes have been 9 yards or less past the line of scrimmage, compared to 52% of Luck's passes. When all you throw are short passes, you're going to have a higher completion percentage and fewer turnovers.
Remembe Luck also has twice as many passes as Rg3 and RG3 had almost 20 drops in two games.

Also I don't see anyone holding short passes against Tom Brady so why against RG3?

Last edited by jsagan77 : 11-22-2012 at 04:02 AM. Reason: Iphone mistypes
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by falloutboy14 View Post
Luck has the rookie single game passing yards record. He has the most 300+ yard passing games as a rookie (5) with 6 games to go.

He's on pace to break the following rookie records:
- Most passing yards
- Most completions in a season.
- Most pass attempts in a season.

Also, last I heard, the Colts lead the league in 3rd down conversions of 10 yds or more. For a rookie that's pretty darn impressive.
Okay but if ypu throw a **** ton of course you're going to break those records. That actually show how inefficient you are because you have to attempt moe to complete more (obviously the yards will come). I feel like people are grasping for straws and don't really get that having to pass more in order to complete more is a bad thing.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Okay but if ypu throw a **** ton of course you're going to break those records. That actually show how inefficient you are because you have to attempt moe to complete more (obviously the yards will come). I feel like people are grasping for straws and don't really get that having to pass more in order to complete more is a bad thing.
You're not worth responding to because you either don't understand or simply ignore the point of what anyone who disagrees with you is saying. Luck's going to win the award, and you can be as miffed about it as you want.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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Remembe Luck also has wslmmes as Rg3. RG3 had almost 20 drops in two games.

Also I don't see anyone holding short passes against Tom Brady so why against RG3?
Am I supposed to be impressed by bubble screens?
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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RG3 is 6th in completion percent with 67.1% Luck is 28th at 57%.
RG3 passer rating is 5th at 101, Luck is 28th at 77.2.
RG3 YPA is 4th at 7.92, Luck is 19th at 7.2
RG3 has 12 TDs to 3 INTs, 4th best ratio. Luck has 12 a piece, 6th worst.

Luck is 7th in yards with 2965. RG3 is 20th with 2193. Luck has thrown it a lot more with 412 attempts, 3rd most. RG3 has 277 tied for 26th. RG3 does have a lot of rushing yards. If a QB rushes for 10 yards I don't think its any different then if he throws for 10.

Now the more a player throws it the greater his yards will be and usually TDs, while the other stats get worse. Its never close to this big of a difference for a QB having a good season.

To Luck's advantage he has made some big throws in the clutch. The Colts have improved over last season a lot. For MVP voting people often consider how many fewer games would a team win if a player wasn't around. Luck would likely deserve that if the rookie award was based on that.

OROTY is not. Its for the best rookie whose had the best season. Luck has been an average QB at best. RG3 significantly better.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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Andrew Luck
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bucs_Rule View Post
RG3 is 6th in completion percent with 67.1% Luck is 28th at 57%.
RG3 passer rating is 5th at 101, Luck is 28th at 77.2.
RG3 YPA is 4th at 7.92, Luck is 19th at 7.2
RG3 has 12 TDs to 3 INTs, 4th best ratio. Luck has 12 a piece, 6th worst.

Luck is 7th in yards with 2965. RG3 is 20th with 2193. Luck has thrown it a lot more with 412 attempts, 3rd most. RG3 has 277 tied for 26th. RG3 does have a lot of rushing yards. If a QB rushes for 10 yards I don't think its any different then if he throws for 10.

Now the more a player throws it the greater his yards will be and usually TDs, while the other stats get worse. Its never close to this big of a difference for a QB having a good season.

To Luck's advantage he has made some big throws in the clutch. The Colts have improved over last season a lot. For MVP voting people often consider how many fewer games would a team win if a player wasn't around. Luck would likely deserve that if the rookie award was based on that.

OROTY is not. Its for the best rookie whose had the best season. Luck has been an average QB at best. RG3 significantly better.
ugh, boxscore pundits. Someone who had never seen the Luck or RG3 play this year could make an argument just as 'good' as yours.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
ugh, boxscore pundits. Someone who had never seen the Luck or RG3 play this year could make an argument just as 'good' as yours.
As opposed to the argument he just plays better.

Stats alone don't tell a complete story. Just its hard for a QB to have a strong season if he's so bad in many of the key stats. Just like wins don't either, Luck will finish the season having played 10 games against teams currently with losing records. And playing bad teams boosts a QBs performance.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:57 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by falloutboy14 View Post
Luck has the rookie single game passing yards record. He has the most 300+ yard passing games as a rookie (5) with 6 games to go.

He's on pace to break the following rookie records:
- Most passing yards
- Most completions in a season.
- Most pass attempts in a season.

Also, last I heard, the Colts lead the league in 3rd down conversions of 10 yds or more. For a rookie that's pretty darn impressive.
To me these are the least impressive numbers for Luck, considering he averages 40+ pass attempts a game.
If a rookie QB is throwing the football that many times, he should 'be on pace' to throw for the most yards, most completions and most pass attempts.

Maybe I'm a homer but I find RGIII's pass completion percentage equally if not more impressive.
In 10 games this season, he's completed 66% of his passes or better 7 times.

I don't really like doing one to one comparisons between these two guys because their play stands on its own.
Luck has been awesome for Indy, and RGIII has been the biggest gamechanger to wear a Skins uni since Sean Taylor.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
You gotta love the logic around here sometimes. So if you vote for Andrew Luck for RoY you haven't seen the Redskins play this year and you also mean that RGIII sucks. Obviously.
Compared to illogical conclusions that have nothing to support ones hypothesis. Yeah me too. (sigh)
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
You're not worth responding to because you either don't understand or simply ignore the point of what anyone who disagrees with you is saying. Luck's going to win the award, and you can be as miffed about it as you want.
If I had no evidence backing my opinion I wouldn't want to respond either.

Last edited by jsagan77 : 11-22-2012 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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Watching this Dallas game I think you guys are right. I can't wait Till RG3 learns to be like Luck. (wreaking of sarcasm).
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