Who is the current OROTY?

[jsagan77]

I'm just curious how Luck is so neck and Neck with RG3? I'm looking at the total body of work, not the last two games. I thought it was close a few weeks ago but now I don't think it's close and I'm still waiting on why you guys think it is.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I'm an NFC East fan in NJ. You don't think I've seen at least 5 RGIII games by now? Like seriously?

But no. Let's assume I'm basing my opinion on 1 game bc it isn't the same opinion as yours. Makes much more sense.

Let's ignore how your rushing attack (that I admit RGIII is partly responsible for) has no effect on your passing game. Let's ignore how Indy's lack of run game effect's Luck bc Aaron Rodgers can play well without a run game.

Brilliant logic.

Well you did say 'Dallas game' so im sorry for assuming that's what you were talking about (sigh). And there were at least 5 balls yesterday where he threaded the needle but funny how you disregard those. And if you've watched that many games you'd also make a point to note all the drops and him playing with a third string TE and no Garcon for much of the season. Not only that but the fact that he spreads the ball out so much just proves he reads his progressions. He doesn't force the ball to one guy all game cause he doesn't have that luxury.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

I'm just curious how Luck is so neck and Neck with RG3? I'm looking at the total body of work, not the last two games. I thought it was close a few weeks ago but now I don't think it's close and I'm still waiting on why you guys think it is.

One thing that's going to help you here is to understand that it is not a contest to see who has the prettiest stats. If it was, RGIII wins. If we can put that aside for a moment, you can see the significance of what Luck is doing.

And again - Griffin has had two fantastic weeks. If Luck falters this week, say the Colts lose to Buffalo - Griffin will be in great position to win the award, and I have no problem saying that. But prior to yesterday, they were really close. It doesn't hurt at all that Griffin had one of his best games against the season against Dallas on Thanksgiving. That's huge for PR. But over the course of the season, Luck's contribution to his offense is a bit more... I'm actually not quite sure what the word would be. Stable? Consistent? By the book? If you want to say RGIII is this year's Cam Newton, look at what Newton has looked like this year as Carolina's run game has laid a giant deuce. Washington is running a similar offense, and a lot of their passing game is predicated on the run. Which is fine, but it's important to see how their respective offenses work, because they work differently; this is why you can't just lay their stats side-by-side and pick one.

As has been said before, Griffin is a terrific athlete. Luck is, too, but Griffin's one of those guys who can do it "his way." He's got a style all his own, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But it's inconsistent. He's always reacting to defenses, improvising, making things up as he goes along. And he's athletic enough to pull it off, at least for now. On the other hand, Andrew Luck is not as unpredictable. But he's better at the little things. Andrew Luck is going to keep improving his style of play - I don't know how much you can "improve" on your ability to scramble in the open field. There's a reason running backs are the easiest players to plug-and-play straight from college; its all instinctive.

That's not a slight to RGIII, or an insinuation that he's not a cerebral player, or whatever, but when you watch Luck you see him always trying to pass, always trying to push the ball downfield, always trying to stick to his progressions. He'll run it, too, but watching the two RGIII clearly has a different mentality about running the ball. Where Luck will take what he's given and sometimes make a grittier play in a critical situation, RGIII is much more on the attack when he runs with the ball. Again - not necessarily a bad thing at all, and it sure makes him fun to watch, but you have to understand that their playing styles are different. RGIII's running ability is what leads to those short crossing routes being open all day as linebackers have to run horizontally all the way across the field, and receivers can always get open against that, and Washington's overall run game is good enough to use the playaction to connect on deep throws. So RGIII has a fantastic QB rating and a lot of big plays.

Andrew Luck hits "NFL throws" better than RGIII. Not the deep bombs, but the kind of difficult throws you need to make consistently. Throws you need to be able to make when the defense knows it's coming. That's Luck's strength. The Colts aren't having him run all over the place and walk the defense all over the field trying to mirror him and thus open up downfield passing options; they have him run standard plays that he'll be running the rest of his career, and he's doing well. The Colts were a very bad team last year, and now they're in the middle of the playoff race. That's huge. The Colts' running backs are pretty bad. If you want to say Washington's aren't any better, and they just have Shanahan, or something... whatever. Washington's ground attack is much better than Indy's, and that's huge for RGIII's style of play. I still have reservations about how well he'd play when Washington's run game can't get off the ground. That question doesn't apply to Luck, because Indianapolis hasn't had a good ground game for years. As crucial as RGIII is to Washington's offense, Luck is even more critical to his, and that's why you have to look past the stats a bit.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Yeah that's why if Luck won OROTY the year I wouldn't get bent.
When you watch him play he makes enough 'wow' plays of his own, where he's dictating to a defense and not the other way around.

The offense Kyle Shanahan is running now for RGIII wouldn't be much different IMO if Luck were the SKins QB, except for the read option elements. But the bootlegs would still be there, the playaction, the rollouts.

I think Luck's stats would be very similar to RG3's in the Skins offense if they switched teams.

W/Ls. One of them is going to have them in his favor. The other won't.
It would really be something if BOTH these guys led their teams to the playoffs.

[jsagan77]

Good write up with quite a few inaccuracies. The first is assuming RG3 isn't looking to pass as much as Luck and that Luck is putting the ball in tighter windows than RG3. That just simply isn't true. Unless the play is a designed run RG3 is always looking to throw first and run second. It's not his fault that he's fast and his offense uses that to its advantage. You guys are knocking RG3 for that and it's just stupid to not take advantage of that wrinkle of his game but in no way should be a knock against his ability to go through progressions, find the open man, and deliver the ball accurately. If anything he does that much better than Luck considering none of his recievers are an obvious security blanket like Wayne is. With how often Luck throws to wayne I'd say He throws to his first read / primary more than RG3 which would mean he doesn't go through his progressions as well as RG3 which probably explain why Luck has 3x as many picks as RG3.

Even looking past the stats RG3 has been better (though both are good).

And what is an 'NFL Pass' to you? Are you implying that RG3's passes aren't NFL throws? FFS that's just ludicrously arrogant.

And I think you lost all credibility when you called RG3 inconsistent because of his style of QB play. That's where I'll stop responding because that's simply a laughable comment. It's like you're making up stuff to prove your point so it's hard to take your arguments seriously. I guess when all the stats tell another story people have to start making up subjective conjecture to prove a point that simply isn't there. It's sad really.

This isn't a thread asking who's the more prototypical pocket passer, is it?

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

One thing that's going to help you here is to understand that it is not a contest to see who has the prettiest stats. If it was, RGIII wins. If we can put that aside for a moment, you can see the significance of what Luck is doing.

And again - Griffin has had two fantastic weeks. If Luck falters this week, say the Colts lose to Buffalo - Griffin will be in great position to win the award, and I have no problem saying that. But prior to yesterday, they were really close. It doesn't hurt at all that Griffin had one of his best games against the season against Dallas on Thanksgiving. That's huge for PR. But over the course of the season, Luck's contribution to his offense is a bit more... I'm actually not quite sure what the word would be. Stable? Consistent? By the book? If you want to say RGIII is this year's Cam Newton, look at what Newton has looked like this year as Carolina's run game has laid a giant deuce. Washington is running a similar offense, and a lot of their passing game is predicated on the run. Which is fine, but it's important to see how their respective offenses work, because they work differently; this is why you can't just lay their stats side-by-side and pick one.

As has been said before, Griffin is a terrific athlete. Luck is, too, but Griffin's one of those guys who can do it "his way." He's got a style all his own, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But it's inconsistent. He's always reacting to defenses, improvising, making things up as he goes along. And he's athletic enough to pull it off, at least for now. On the other hand, Andrew Luck is not as unpredictable. But he's better at the little things. Andrew Luck is going to keep improving his style of play - I don't know how much you can "improve" on your ability to scramble in the open field. There's a reason running backs are the easiest players to plug-and-play straight from college; its all instinctive.

That's not a slight to RGIII, or an insinuation that he's not a cerebral player, or whatever, but when you watch Luck you see him always trying to pass, always trying to push the ball downfield, always trying to stick to his progressions. He'll run it, too, but watching the two RGIII clearly has a different mentality about running the ball. Where Luck will take what he's given and sometimes make a grittier play in a critical situation, RGIII is much more on the attack when he runs with the ball. Again - not necessarily a bad thing at all, and it sure makes him fun to watch, but you have to understand that their playing styles are different. RGIII's running ability is what leads to those short crossing routes being open all day as linebackers have to run horizontally all the way across the field, and receivers can always get open against that, and Washington's overall run game is good enough to use the playaction to connect on deep throws. So RGIII has a fantastic QB rating and a lot of big plays.

Andrew Luck hits "NFL throws" better than RGIII. Not the deep bombs, but the kind of difficult throws you need to make consistently. Throws you need to be able to make when the defense knows it's coming. That's Luck's strength. The Colts aren't having him run all over the place and walk the defense all over the field trying to mirror him and thus open up downfield passing options; they have him run standard plays that he'll be running the rest of his career, and he's doing well. The Colts were a very bad team last year, and now they're in the middle of the playoff race. That's huge. The Colts' running backs are pretty bad. If you want to say Washington's aren't any better, and they just have Shanahan, or something... whatever. Washington's ground attack is much better than Indy's, and that's huge for RGIII's style of play. I still have reservations about how well he'd play when Washington's run game can't get off the ground. That question doesn't apply to Luck, because Indianapolis hasn't had a good ground game for years. As crucial as RGIII is to Washington's offense, Luck is even more critical to his, and that's why you have to look past the stats a bit.

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by kBuc5

Long shot but Martin is still in the race. Number 1 in the league in yards from scrimmage. Fourth in the league in rushing yards at 1000. (only 5 yards separates 3rd and 4th place). Lot of football left.

As much as I'd like Martin to win it, he's got no shot.

All you have to do these days to win OROY is be a quarterback and not completely suck. Luck is playing well and has his team on the verge of a wild card berth and RG3 has a much higher national profile that Doug Martin does.

The fact that Martin isn't going to win it doesn't really bother me, though. I'm content with the fact that my team has him in the backfield.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

I have poor reading comprehension.

The whole point here is that the things which earn Luck such high praise are not always reflected explicitly in the stat sheet. Is that simple enough for you?

[jsagan77]

If Luck were doing all these things so well wouldn't there be something besides empirical testaments from arm chair QB coaches showing the results of such mastery of the QB position? It's obvious you have a hard on for luck and want him to be this all world QB but he's been painstakenly inconsistent and well, average. You'll pull out any nonsensical hyperbole like 'NFL throws' for example, to try to talk him up when in fact RG3 makes better reads, more accurate throws, and is better at going through his progressions.

Of course then you'll go into ad hominem conjecture like a 3 year old brat who doesn't get what they want. You simply think your opinion matters more than the facts and it doesn't.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

If Luck were doing all these things so well wouldn't there be something besides empirical testaments from arm chair QB coaches showing the results of such mastery of the QB position? It's obvious you have a hard on for luck and want him to be this all world QB but he's been painstakenly inconsistent and well, average. You'll pull out any nonsensical hyperbole like 'NFL throws' for example, to try to talk him up when in fact RG3 makes better reads, more accurate throws, and is better at going through his progressions.

Of course then you'll go into ad hominem conjecture like a 3 year old brat who doesn't get what they want. You simply think your opinion matters more than the facts and it doesn't.

Pretty much anything and everything you've accused other people of doing in this thread you've done yourself.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Of course then you'll go into ad hominem conjecture like a 3 year old brat who doesn't get what they want. You simply think your opinion matters more than the facts and it doesn't.

please define ad hominem. then, quote anyone OTHER than yourself who used it. when you can't, please stop using words you clearly don't understand. further, please stop making unprovoked, direct personal attacks against other posters, solely because you think they're wrong.

seriously though. this is your only warning.

[dannyz]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

Pretty much anything and everything you've accused other people of doing in this thread you've done yourself.

You got that right. I Love both of these guys but to act like everyone is talking trash on RG3 you are talking trash on Luck. Both of these guys Deserve the Award and I don't know why everyone fight about it.

To the guy saying no one watches Redskin games I don't think you watch Colts games, Redskins have a better running game and that helps QB's even more for RG3. Like I said these are two of my Favorite players but I think Andrew Luck is doing more with less and that is why he should Win OROTY.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by dannyz

You got that right. I Love both of these guys but to act like everyone is talking trash on RG3 you are talking trash on Luck. Both of these guys Deserve the Award and I don't know why everyone fight about it.

To the guy saying no one watches Redskin games I don't think you watch Colts games, Redskins have a better running game and that helps QB's even more for RG3. Like I said these are two of my Favorite players but I think Andrew Luck is doing more with less and that is why he should Win OROTY.

Right. They're both doing great, you just have to realize their situations are significantly different when you're evaluating them in comparison to each other.

[Lil Quip]

I am sure this has been iterated before, but luck martin and rgiii are all having seasons above the normal criteria for a oroty.

Luck versus griffin is more of a seesaw in my mind. Each has had a bit of a lull and the other has stepped up and taken the spotlight.

Obviously lucks last game against a previously horrible pats secondary tarnished him for the moment. He made a few mistakes that the pats took full advantage of. That being said, every time he dropped back, he scared the crap at me.

I love griffin, I got to watch him tear up uconn as a frosh. He has great numbers, but look at a play he made to moss in his perfect game. As an objective football fan, you have to put most of that on moss. That is a randy play not a santana one.

That being said, if he truly has learned from the concussion, and doesn't have another lull, not sure luck can do enough to catch up.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by njx9

please define ad hominem. then, quote anyone OTHER than yourself who used it. when you can't, please stop using words you clearly don't understand. further, please stop making unprovoked, direct personal attacks against other posters, solely because you think they're wrong.

seriously though. this is your only warning.

Yep typical, warn me but not ur buddy, but that's the essence of this board and you in particular. You take a sarcastic and jerkish approach to EVERYONE that doesn't agree with you and when they respond to your endless drivel of subjective analysis with the same sort of ire you drop the hammer. Yeah i've done the same when provoked by you and others. There's a cadre of posters on here that have an issue with a debate and since they want to be right so badly they make things up like they actually study tape for a living and expect others to just give into their kool aid mixture. That's also the same crew that like stats but only when it's relevant to their approach. It's disgusting what was once a very good board has become.

[Borat]

That was an interesting goodbye speech Jsagan. Nice knowing ya.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Yep typical, warn me but not ur buddy, but that's the essence of this board and you in particular. You take a sarcastic and jerkish approach to EVERYONE that doesn't agree with you and when they respond to your endless drivel of subjective analysis with the same sort of ire you drop the hammer. Yeah i've done the same when provoked by you and others. There's a cadre of posters on here that have an issue with a debate and since they want to be right so badly they make things up like they actually study tape for a living and expect others to just give into their kool aid mixture. That's also the same crew that like stats but only when it's relevant to their approach. It's disgusting what was once a very good board has become.

so the answer was "no, njx, i have no idea what an ad hominem is, nor can i identify any that you, or anyone else in this thread, have used. however, i think i will continue to make direct, unprovoked personal attacks."

gotcha.

[Borat]

Originally Posted by njx9

so the answer was "no, njx, i have no idea what an ad hominem is, nor can i identify any that you, or anyone else in this thread, have used. however, i think i will continue to make direct, unprovoked personal attacks."

gotcha.

Hey, at least he stayed true to himself lol.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Borat

Hey, at least he stayed true to himself lol.

it's too bad. some of the other redskins posters made some reasonable arguments for rg3. but i irrationally don't want him to win now. luckily, that should fade in like, a day or two.

[scottyboy]

i just love how "zomg you have no facts to back this up" was his main argument, and PL posted awesome stats that were TOTALLY overlooked and not recognized. classic.

[bucfan12]

Griffin right now might be the OROY but I'd still take luck any day. RGIII is playing well but let me put it this way: the pistol offense is something that will not last in this league and the skins run out of it very often.

[njx9]

i'd have zero issue with either of them winning it, with martin in 3rd. they've all been fantastic so far.

[JRTPlaya21]

I'm a massive Redskins fan but you really can't go wrong with him Luck, Martin, Russell Wilson or even Alfred Morris this year. It's a good year to be an rookie.

[njx9]

meh, russell wilson is only in the conversation because of the rest of his team. not saying he's terrible, but he's not close to a top three candidate.

[scottyboy]

what about Sanu?

[gpngc]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

One thing that's going to help you here is to understand that it is not a contest to see who has the prettiest stats. If it was, RGIII wins. If we can put that aside for a moment, you can see the significance of what Luck is doing.

And again - Griffin has had two fantastic weeks. If Luck falters this week, say the Colts lose to Buffalo - Griffin will be in great position to win the award, and I have no problem saying that. But prior to yesterday, they were really close. It doesn't hurt at all that Griffin had one of his best games against the season against Dallas on Thanksgiving. That's huge for PR. But over the course of the season, Luck's contribution to his offense is a bit more... I'm actually not quite sure what the word would be. Stable? Consistent? By the book? If you want to say RGIII is this year's Cam Newton, look at what Newton has looked like this year as Carolina's run game has laid a giant deuce. Washington is running a similar offense, and a lot of their passing game is predicated on the run. Which is fine, but it's important to see how their respective offenses work, because they work differently; this is why you can't just lay their stats side-by-side and pick one.

As has been said before, Griffin is a terrific athlete. Luck is, too, but Griffin's one of those guys who can do it "his way." He's got a style all his own, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But it's inconsistent. He's always reacting to defenses, improvising, making things up as he goes along. And he's athletic enough to pull it off, at least for now. On the other hand, Andrew Luck is not as unpredictable. But he's better at the little things. Andrew Luck is going to keep improving his style of play - I don't know how much you can "improve" on your ability to scramble in the open field. There's a reason running backs are the easiest players to plug-and-play straight from college; its all instinctive.

That's not a slight to RGIII, or an insinuation that he's not a cerebral player, or whatever, but when you watch Luck you see him always trying to pass, always trying to push the ball downfield, always trying to stick to his progressions. He'll run it, too, but watching the two RGIII clearly has a different mentality about running the ball. Where Luck will take what he's given and sometimes make a grittier play in a critical situation, RGIII is much more on the attack when he runs with the ball. Again - not necessarily a bad thing at all, and it sure makes him fun to watch, but you have to understand that their playing styles are different. RGIII's running ability is what leads to those short crossing routes being open all day as linebackers have to run horizontally all the way across the field, and receivers can always get open against that, and Washington's overall run game is good enough to use the playaction to connect on deep throws. So RGIII has a fantastic QB rating and a lot of big plays.

Andrew Luck hits "NFL throws" better than RGIII. Not the deep bombs, but the kind of difficult throws you need to make consistently. Throws you need to be able to make when the defense knows it's coming. That's Luck's strength. The Colts aren't having him run all over the place and walk the defense all over the field trying to mirror him and thus open up downfield passing options; they have him run standard plays that he'll be running the rest of his career, and he's doing well. The Colts were a very bad team last year, and now they're in the middle of the playoff race. That's huge. The Colts' running backs are pretty bad. If you want to say Washington's aren't any better, and they just have Shanahan, or something... whatever. Washington's ground attack is much better than Indy's, and that's huge for RGIII's style of play. I still have reservations about how well he'd play when Washington's run game can't get off the ground. That question doesn't apply to Luck, because Indianapolis hasn't had a good ground game for years. As crucial as RGIII is to Washington's offense, Luck is even more critical to his, and that's why you have to look past the stats a bit.

Completely disagree.

RG3, like Luck, makes his offense go. The running game, the passing game, it all works because of RG3.

Morris is a fine player, but make no mistake, his success can directly be attributed to the presence of RG3. He would not be doing anything close to what he's doing with Cousins at QB.