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Old 11-26-2012, 04:00 PM    (permalink
Todd Bertuzzi
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
the players should just go to europe. they won't get paid as much, but at least they'll be playing. i don't understand what cards the owners think they really have here.
The owners hold all the cards in this scenario. The players are losing out on millions(they are getting paid peanuts to play in Europe) and their main stream of income. Not to mention the risks they are taking if they happen to get injured over in Europe. Some have taken out insurance policies but that only ends up costing them more over the course of this whole ordeal. The owner's all have other streams of revenue that turn a significantly higher profit than whatever they make on the NHL teams(if indeed they make anything at all in some cases) and they can easily afford to outlast the players in a financial sense. The question for them is how long does this go before they see irreparable harm done to their brand and they lose the growth they've gained coming off of the last lockout?

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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Are you honestly implying that it is harder to own a team than be a professional athlete? Unless you're Jerry Jones, the job of an owner is to attend one meeting a year, play golf all day, and sit in your luxury box.
The owners take on all of the financial risk in these cases and they should be compensated adequately for that fact. Every other sport shares a 50-50 split give or take so what should make the NHL so special especially when you consider the NHL is probably the least profitable pro sports league on average.

Without getting too far into things I'll just say both sides are equally to blame for this.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Todd Bertuzzi View Post
The owners take on all of the financial risk in these cases and they should be compensated adequately for that fact.
But what constitutes "adequately" is what is up for debate. Very few owners come out on the poor end of owning a franchise, any franchise, no matter how insanely incompetent they are. It's a prospect that literally has no "risk" at all.

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Every other sport shares a 50-50 split give or take so what should make the NHL so special especially when you consider the NHL is probably the least profitable pro sports league on average.
Firstly, the profitability of the league is irrelevant when considering the % split.

Secondly, what other leagues do is irrelevant in this negotiation. The NHL owners aren't bidding against the NFL; they are bidding against the potential earning ability of those NHL players outside of the NHL. You may be correct that the owners hold the cards in this scenario, but they are also losing money every day this lockout continues as well. In any event, I would never be so foolish as to support ownership over labor in any dispute, and it baffles me why anyone would do otherwise (unless they are also insanely wealthy capitalists).
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
so the owners, in your scenario, are not losing anything by completely devaluing (to the point of worthlessness, in some cases) their nhl franchises because they may or may not have other options? meanwhile, the players could go to the KHL (a $36.5 million salary cap is hardly peanuts), elitserien, and a hundred other euro leagues. given a large talent infusion, and higher viewership, the idea of playing for peanuts is an absolute fiction.

were i a top tier player, i'd take whatever contract i was offered overseas and forget the nhl entirely. let the owners continue to try to negotiate while holding a worthless product that a bare minority of north american viewers even care about anymore.
Where did I say the owners aren't losing anything? Of course they are losing out but my point was that they can afford to sit out and take the losses for a lot longer than the players can. Like I said the NHL is just a side venture for most of these owners and they have other streams of revenue to keep them comfortable for the time being. Add to that the revenues they can generate from hosting other events at the NHL venues and although they are losing out on potential revenues from the NHL as well as on the value of their brand, it's far easier for them to sustain these losses than the players. Add in the fact that a player's average career only lasts a handful of years and it makes it even tougher for them to swallow losing a whole year's salary(for some of them it might even make 2 year's worth they've now lost in the last decade). Can the players make a comfortable living playing overseas? Sure, but when you're career expectancy is only 5-10 years you can't afford the luxury of losing out on millions a year in order to save yourself less in the long run. They are making peanuts over there compared to their NHL deals. We saw it last lockout and it's no different this time around, simple fact is the owners can afford to out wait the players.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
no owner is in a position to lose well over $100 million dollars in franchise value. period. no matter what else they do. the fact that you think they can just wait it out and that teams won't be contracted and utterly valueless at this point is absurd. the players can still get paid, even if it's apparently peanuts (i like the way you sidestep all the way around why that's still a complete fabrication; no doubt ovechkin is mourning his $5.7 million dollar, tax-free salary). the phoenix coyotes aren't worth a dime if no one goes to their games or buys their gear.
No, no owner is in a position to lose that much, but here you go again putting words in my mouth. I never said they can afford to lose that much, all I'm saying is they can sustain it longer than the players can, plain and simple.

Sure Ovechkin may be making 5.7M tax free which is great but there are also 500-600 other players who make up the NHLPA. The majority of these players are not stars and don't make much to begin with so they aren't in a position to be losing out on paychecks, let alone an entire year's salary. It's also not as easy to pack up and head to Europe to make a living as you make it out to be. Once you get past the obvious stumbling blocks for these players like their families, most of these guys won't be able to find teams in Europe to take them on. These European teams are only going to take on 1-2 NHL players because they don't want to have the lockout end halfway through their season and then wind up losing 80% of their first place roster and be stuck having no one to replace them. Passed that you have the fact a lot of these leagues have roster restrictions that limit the amount of foreign born players each team can have to 2 or 3. The Swedish league isn't even allowing NHL players to sign there for less than the whole year for these reasons alone. So, yes Ovechkin and the 50-100 top players in the NHL can go find jobs in Europe and get along fine making half their salaries, meanwhile the other 80% of the player's association is stuck making peanuts playing in some absurd 3rd tier league or even worse not playing at all, all the while trying to find a way to support their families.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
and i'm saying they can't. because their franchises are already decimated in value. because they're now sitting on multi-million dollar obligations and debts that they can't pay with the team. you seem to lack any clear understanding of what having a massively expensive sports franchise means.

You seem to be ignoring the other multi billion dollar businesses they also own. The NHL is just a side venture for these guys and they can certainly afford to take a short term hit in that investment.

they can certainly get other jobs if they can't find a roster in all of the professional hockey leagues that pay fairly well in europe and russia. some of them are already playing in the AHL. is it a pay cut? yes. is it a more dramatic pay cut than they'd get by accepting whatever the owners are demanding? apparently not.

Like I said they can find jobs playing in the minor leagues or some 2nd tier German or Danish league but if you think those teams are paying them millions to play there you're sadly mistaken. They are getting peanuts and when your career span is so short it's not luxury most of these guys can afford. There are only a small amount of guys who are eligible for the AHL this year anyways as only waiver exempt players can play there so pretty much just guys still on ELCs. And, yes it is a way more dramatic paycut than what the owner's are demanding at this point actually.

seems sweden found a way around that. and it's absolutely untrue that it's difficult to take a job in another country. it's absolutely untrue that it's difficult to move a family. i have no idea where that myth came from.

Sure when you're looking long term but try explaining to your wife and kids why you have to either leave them and live in Europe for the year or uproot them and take them with you.

what's really interesting to me, is why you think joe schmoe, the continual scratch, has any voice whatsoever in the nhlpa, or why anyone cares about how much harder it is for him to "support a family" (love that appeal to emotion) on $150k in some 'tier 3 league' than it is for him to support a family while he's spending half the actual nhl season shuttling back to the AHL or getting cut outright.

The NHLPA's main bargaining committee is made up of more Joe Schmoe's than superstars and it's designed to directly reflect the actual makeup of the player's association.

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Craig Adams (Pittsburgh Penguins)
Adrian Aucoin (Phoenix Coyotes)
Alex Auld (Ottawa Senators)
David Backes (St. Louis Blues)
Marty Biron (New York Rangers)
Brad Boyes (Buffalo Sabres)
Chris Campoli (Montreal Canadiens)
B.J. Crombeen (St. Louis Blues)
Mathieu Darche (Montreal Canadiens)
Rick DiPietro (New York Islanders)
Shane Doan (Phoenix Coyotes)
Brandon Dubinsky (New York Rangers)
Ruslan Fedotenko (New York Rangers)
Alex Goligoski (Dallas Stars)
Ron Hainsey (Winnipeg Jets)
Scott Hartnell (Philadelphia Flyers)
Jamie Langenbrunner (St. Louis Blues)
Manny Malhotra (Vancouver Canucks)
Steve Montador (Chicago Blackhawks)
Dominic Moore (San Jose Sharks)
Brendan Morrison (Chicago Blackhawks)
Douglas Murray (San Jose Sharks)
George Parros (Anaheim Ducks)
Chris Phillips (Ottawa Senators)
Cory Schneider (Vancouver Canucks)
John Tavares (New York Islanders)
Shea Weber (Nashville Predators)
Kevin Westgarth (Los Angeles Kings)
Dan Winnik (San Jose Sharks)
James Wisniewski (Columbus Blue Jackets)
Henrik Zetterberg (Detroit Red Wings)
Seems like they have a pretty good voice to me. Joe Schmoe would be lucky to find a tier 3 league that would pay him 150k. This point doesn't just apply to the fringe players who spend half their time in the AHL, it is just as hard for the players who have carved out a career as 3rd/4th line role players to find roster spots overseas.Again these are the players who make up the majority of the league.


regardless, the players can do other things to make money. the owners can't do anything about holding on to massive money sinks that are becoming more and more worthless every, single day.
Again, I'm not saying I side with the owners but I refuse to put 100% of the blame on the owners because both sides are at fault for different reasons. To say the players hold all the cards here is ludicrous though, in fact it's quite the opposite. Neither side can afford to lose an entire season though which is why I'm still confident we'll have hockey by the new year.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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"Blame" is a childish way of thinking of labor relations. Workers are not obligated to work for you any more than you are obligated to pay for their services if you choose not to.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
"Blame" is a childish way of thinking of labor relations. Workers are not obligated to work for you any more than you are obligated to pay for their services if you choose not to.
Yes, but it still won't stop fans from putting "blame" on one side or the other in cases such as this. You could argue they don't have any obligations to each other but they certainly both have an obligation to the fans. This is not typical example of labour negotiations for that very reason.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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You could argue they don't have any obligations to each other but they certainly both have an obligation to the fans. This is not typical example of labour negotiations for that very reason.
They do? I suppose you could make an argument that they play in tax-subsidized arenas, but there's nothing about those leases that obligate them to not have labor strife.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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Sure when you're looking long term but try explaining to your wife and kids why you have to either leave them and live in Europe for the year or uproot them and take them with you.
Ha. Implying players actually take care of their family during the hockey season.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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The channel that would normally be showing Sabres games is playing Game 5 from the '06 Ottawa series. I'm both loving it and hating it, for numerous reasons.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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Trying to assign blame in this absolute debacle is beyond pointless. No matter the level of the player or owner, this lockout once again screw the fans. End of discussion.

Neither side gives a damn that they both are committing homicide to the sport of hockey in North America. Neither side gives a damn about fans losing money due to lost jobs based on their penny ante lockout. The people that are the backbone of the economy that work in numerous jobs attempting to support real families with actual jobs.

I weep not for the owners nor the players. Their refusal to achieve collective bargaining for the 4th time in 2 decades is a disgrace. Maybe when these lower tier families actually have to get actual jobs, aka not playing a freaking game, in this economy then maybe the message will hit home. Sadly this time maybe fans will get the hint that neither side gives a damn about them and will let the NHL die.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Detroit Red Wings prospect Riley Sheahan had a blood-alcohol content of .30 – nearly four times the legal limit and nearly double the threshold for the “super-drunk’ charge he faces following his arrest in late October by Grand Rapids Police.
Sheahan, 20, who plays for the Grand Rapids Griffins, also was charged with providing false information. He was carrying the Michigan driver’s license of Brendan Smith when he was pulled over by police on Ottawa Avenue NW in downtown Grand Rapids.

and he was in a teletubby costume.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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So Josh Harding has multiple sclerosis. That kinda sucks.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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Detroit Red Wings prospect Riley Sheahan had a blood-alcohol content of .30 – nearly four times the legal limit and nearly double the threshold for the “super-drunk’ charge he faces following his arrest in late October by Grand Rapids Police.
Sheahan, 20, who plays for the Grand Rapids Griffins, also was charged with providing false information. He was carrying the Michigan driver’s license of Brendan Smith when he was pulled over by police on Ottawa Avenue NW in downtown Grand Rapids.

and he was in a teletubby costume.
The video of his traffic stop is out there. It's amusing.

Sheahan played 1 game with the Wings this year and took a 4-minute high-sticking penalty on his first shift. Knocked out some Blackhawk player's teeth.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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So Josh Harding has multiple sclerosis. That kinda sucks.
And he wants to keep playing?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Watching Game 6 of the Wings-Pens 2008 finals ... Good times.

A tie-breaking series between the Wings and Pens is near the top of my hypothetical list of things I want to see in sports. Too bad the Wings won't be back to the finals with this same core group of players.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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What's up with Michigan hockey this year? Looking pretty awful.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:33 AM    (permalink
Wootylicous
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Originally Posted by SuperMcGee View Post
What's up with Michigan hockey this year? Looking pretty awful.
They don't have anything. Well they do have Pateryn and Mac but that's it!

I like the Gophers this year!
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
Watching Game 6 of the Wings-Pens 2008 finals ... Good times.

A tie-breaking series between the Wings and Pens is near the top of my hypothetical list of things I want to see in sports. Too bad the Wings won't be back to the finals with this same core group of players.
That would be awesome.

Both of those series were intense, with some great hockey on display.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cutey Wooty View Post
They don't have anything. Well they do have Pateryn and Mac but that's it!

I like the Gophers this year!
Purple Eagles are going to make some noise after winning the awful AHA. Carsen Chubak dominance!
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Does the NHL still exist?
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:35 PM    (permalink
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Who cares?
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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Does the NHL still exist?
What is that?
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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God I hate Donald Fehr
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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either way, we lose.
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