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Old 12-05-2012, 08:07 AM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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Originally Posted by ph90702 View Post
Vick, Newton, and Young weren't completeing 70% of their passes while averaging over 8 yards per attempting. Don't forget about his 100 quarterback rating either. I have a hard time seeing RGIII regressing considering how good he has been. He's light years ahead of the three guys you mentioned.
Last year, Newton threw for 400-plus yards in his first game. He threw for over 4000 yards. RGIII is not light years ahead of what Newton was by any stretch of the imagination.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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For me he is more like Rivers, Ryan or Eli, if you give him a good pocket and good targets he can be a damaging player. He isn't flat out elite but with the right talent around him you can certainly push for a SB and even win one if things fall right. Of course he doesn't have either the line or the targets right now and he isn't going to elevate those guys. He can be a few notches above a system QB (so put a good line and good receivers and you have a very good offense).
Eli won a SB with a shittastic OL...

Back on topic though, I liked Sam Bradford a lot coming out and still see the signs that made me believe he can be a top tier QB and franchise guy. He's smart, can throw a very accurate ball all over the field, and continues to step up into the pocket despite the beating he's taken. Despite how up in arms Redskins fans get about Bob, I'm still not sold. He's a smart kid, so I do think he'll figure out how to adjust to the way the league adjusts to him, but I'm not sure he'll ever be elite and 2 first round picks and 2nd better than Bradford.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 12-05-2012, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Of course, but the Browns regret it more
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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Honestly, I see in Bradford I see Alex Smith 2.0 in terms of career path. Although, Fisher may be able to provide him some stability that Smith never had.
same size, athletic, lower level arm strength, played in a gimmicky college offense, and has a history with shoulder problems

ive made the comparison for years.

they should regret it imo, i said that when they traded it. They should have moved bradford to the browns and give shurmur his boy
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Last year, Newton threw for 400-plus yards in his first game. He threw for over 4000 yards. RGIII is not light years ahead of what Newton was by any stretch of the imagination.
Cam Newton is 15th in QB rating. RGIII is 3rd in QB rating. They have essentially the same yard per attempt, but RGIII is completing 10% more of his passes than Newton. Newton has 6 more interceptions than RGIII with only 30 more pass attempts. Also, the Redskins have a better record. I think it's pretty clear that RGIII is way better than Newton.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Cam Newton is 15th in QB rating. RGIII is 3rd in QB rating. They have essentially the same yard per attempt, but RGIII is completing 10% more of his passes than Newton. Newton has 6 more interceptions than RGIII with only 30 more pass attempts. Also, the Redskins have a better record. I think it's pretty clear that RGIII is way better than Newton.
We will see if RG3 can do it again next year. He could easily have the same sophomore slump.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Newton and Young had stellar rookie years but people caught on to them and they suffered huge sophomore slumps.
Player A: 51.5 cmp%, 2199 yds, 12 td, 13 int, 66.7 rate, 6.2 y/a
Player B: 55.0 cmp%, 2436 yds, 12 td, 13 int, 71.4 rate, 6.6 y/a

Player A is Vince Young's rookie season. Player B is Mark Sanchez this season.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:46 PM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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Player A: 51.5 cmp%, 2199 yds, 12 td, 13 int, 66.7 rate, 6.2 y/a
Player B: 55.0 cmp%, 2436 yds, 12 td, 13 int, 71.4 rate, 6.6 y/a

Player A is Vince Young's rookie season. Player B is Mark Sanchez this season.
Wait, you're telling me Mark Sanchez ISN'T a steallar QB? Mind blown. But seriously, stellar was the wrong word for Vince Young. But people were talking about how great Young was after his rookie season (deserved or not) and we all know how he turned out.

My thing with RGIII is a lot of his numbers are inflated by the system he is in. In the games I've watched of his, so many of his passes are behind the line of scrimmage or just beyond. Not that hard to complete those. He doesn't throw many picks because 90% of what he does is so low risk. Defenses will adjust next year so that the Redskins will have to do more things down field, over the middle, and higher risk. How RGIII adjusts to that different style will go a long way in answering this question.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Wait, you're telling me Mark Sanchez ISN'T a steallar QB? Mind blown. But seriously, stellar was the wrong word for Vince Young. But people were talking about how great Young was after his rookie season (deserved or not) and we all know how he turned out.
I'm just sick of people acting like VY had a great rookie season. As a Titans fan, I appreciated what he brought on the ground but he was garbage throwing the ball until 2009. And even then he was just a slightly above average game manager with one or two great games during a 16 game stretch.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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I think the Rams are ok with where they're at in their developement. I would also say they may be as near or nearer than the Redskins as far as getting to the Superbowl.

I like Griffin a lot more than i did Vick and Young, certainly at similar stages. Robert no doubt isn't a knucklehead and i don't think work ethic is ever going to be a problem. I think he is going to have to reduce the number of hits he takes and not sure if that will reduce his capacity to make plays so we'll have to see.

Right now the league is slowly adjusting to QBs running some form of the read option. In the last couple of weeks i have watched DEs from the Jets (against Seattle), Bears (against Seattle) and Giants (against Redskins) frankly make fools of themselves by giving up their backside containment that has lead to huge gainers for opposing QBs.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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I think the Rams have the better team than the Redskins but right now the Redskins have the better QB. I always have reservations about guys who don't show strong traits of being able to be a drop back passer though. Eventually teams will develop defensive schemes to force them into "regular" sets. There is a reason that pocket passers have lasted so long in a league driven by it's adaptability...because it is the best way to succeed. Defensively teams can come up with pressure packages and coverage shells to confuse the QB, however it all boils down to making the right read and the right throw. When you can make the throw and make the read then you can play in almost any situation. When your offense is based on the assumption you will gain positive yardage on first and second down then your 3rd down offense will more than likely be based around manageable distances. However, on 3rd and long play action goes out the window, read option goes out the window, 3 step drop slants etc are reduced. On 3rd and long every QB will at some stage have to drop back and survey the field and make the right read and throw. I have yet to see this consistently from RG3 and until he does show it consistently I struggle to mention the Redskins as possible future Superbowl winners. At some stage in the playoffs you are going to face a good defense who can stop, or reduce, the run game. If the QB can't keep the chains moving and/or score points on longer than ideal 3rd down situations then you won't consistently win against the better teams
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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I think the Rams have the better team than the Redskins but right now the Redskins have the better QB. I always have reservations about guys who don't show strong traits of being able to be a drop back passer though. Eventually teams will develop defensive schemes to force them into "regular" sets. There is a reason that pocket passers have lasted so long in a league driven by it's adaptability...because it is the best way to succeed. Defensively teams can come up with pressure packages and coverage shells to confuse the QB, however it all boils down to making the right read and the right throw. When you can make the throw and make the read then you can play in almost any situation. When your offense is based on the assumption you will gain positive yardage on first and second down then your 3rd down offense will more than likely be based around manageable distances. However, on 3rd and long play action goes out the window, read option goes out the window, 3 step drop slants etc are reduced. On 3rd and long every QB will at some stage have to drop back and survey the field and make the right read and throw. I have yet to see this consistently from RG3 and until he does show it consistently I struggle to mention the Redskins as possible future Superbowl winners. At some stage in the playoffs you are going to face a good defense who can stop, or reduce, the run game. If the QB can't keep the chains moving and/or score points on longer than ideal 3rd down situations then you won't consistently win against the better teams
He can and has done that this season. There have been plenty of straight 3 and 5 step west coast route combos run by Washington. He has shown he can do it.

Shanahan just prefers to use him outside the pocket and take advantage of his speed because it works beautifully.

But RG3 can absolutely play from the pocket as well. He's accurate enough in the short/intermediate game and has a terrific deep ball.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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He can and has done that this season. There have been plenty of straight 3 and 5 step west coast route combos run by Washington. He has shown he can do it.

Shanahan just prefers to use him outside the pocket and take advantage of his speed because it works beautifully.

But RG3 can absolutely play from the pocket as well. He's accurate enough in the short/intermediate game and has a terrific deep ball.
To a small extent he has done it at times, however the Shanahan's are definitely using kid gloves with him so far. When RG3 is dropping back he is normally going off basic reads. If he reads off coverage it is likely a quick bubble screen or slant. It's the same with play action. The Redskins don't really run levels and ask him to choose where to go with the football based on defenders' depths. On any given play he is likely reading the safety. If the safety bites that's where the ball goes, like the long TD in the Giants game.

I want to see how he does when the defense knows it's a pass, they play press man and send pressure. Can he stand there with bodies around him and go through his progressions. From all accounts from people who have interviewed him he is a very cerebral young man and could definitely improve in this area, however as of now I am not going to assume that he will. Until he shows on a consistent basis that he can I will assume it is still a weakness.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Eh. Montana had Dwight Clark and Feddie Solomon as his main receivers hi first few seasons. Montana made those guys shine, especially Clark who was not very fast.

The thing with Bradford from what I've seen, is that well, I haven't seen the "flashes" of greatness. Good quarterbacks make players around them better sometimes. I don't think at this point that St.Louis is so devoid of weapons that it's impossible for Bradford to succeed. Givens and Amendola are decent targets.

Then you take a look at guys like Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger who take a beating behind their lines and they're still making plays.

Also, it's Bradford's third season and he's with a new coaching staff and he still isn't averaging 7 yards per pass attempt. Not a good sign.


Amendola has missed more than half the season and is currently hurt again. That leaves 4th rounder Rookie Givens as his #1 WR. Nobody, and I mean nobody has worse weapons than Bradford and yet the Rams are almost .500 and are undefeated in the tough NFC West. Pretty damn impressive.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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To a small extent he has done it at times, however the Shanahan's are definitely using kid gloves with him so far. When RG3 is dropping back he is normally going off basic reads. If he reads off coverage it is likely a quick bubble screen or slant. It's the same with play action. The Redskins don't really run levels and ask him to choose where to go with the football based on defenders' depths. On any given play he is likely reading the safety. If the safety bites that's where the ball goes, like the long TD in the Giants game.

I want to see how he does when the defense knows it's a pass, they play press man and send pressure. Can he stand there with bodies around him and go through his progressions. From all accounts from people who have interviewed him he is a very cerebral young man and could definitely improve in this area, however as of now I am not going to assume that he will. Until he shows on a consistent basis that he can I will assume it is still a weakness.
The Redskins offense works. At the NFL level. It works well. He's led them to big clutch drives, made big plays at crucial moments, and has consistently moved the ball and put points on the board.

I don't understand why you're holding it against him that he succeeds in THIS offense rather than in a more typical NFL offense. Both can work depending on your personnel.

He's shown an ability to be a straight drop-back pocket passer, but the coaching staff instead chooses to use playaction/read option/bootlegs more often because THOSE PLAYS WORK.

Just because he's getting it done in a different way than what we're used to seeing doesn't mean he can't be good at doing it the typical way as well as he has in fact shown glimpses. We've seen RGIII drop straight back and fire accurate passes downfield. Is he asked to do it all the time as a Redskin? No. Does that mean he's unable to? Heck no! He's just doing what he's asked to do because it works.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
The Redskins offense works. At the NFL level. It works well. He's led them to big clutch drives, made big plays at crucial moments, and has consistently moved the ball and put points on the board.

I don't understand why you're holding it against him that he succeeds in THIS offense rather than in a more typical NFL offense. Both can work depending on your personnel.

He's shown an ability to be a straight drop-back pocket passer, but the coaching staff instead chooses to use playaction/read option/bootlegs more often because THOSE PLAYS WORK.

Just because he's getting it done in a different way than what we're used to seeing doesn't mean he can't be good at doing it the typical way as well as he has in fact shown glimpses. We've seen RGIII drop straight back and fire accurate passes downfield. Is he asked to do it all the time as a Redskin? No. Does that mean he's unable to? Heck no! He's just doing what he's asked to do because it works.
And I have absolutely no issue with that, in fact if the Shanahan's didn't do it then they should be widely criticised. However the fact that it is working now does not mean it is going to work next year, or the year after. There have always been athletes who have played the QB position, however it is not a coincidence that the best are your "typical" pocket passers. I am not trying to citicise RG3. He has had a tremendous rookie season. And I know it's not necessarily fair to compare, but people said Vick was going to revolutionise the game, they said Cam Newton was going to do it last year. I stated in my initial post that I had reservations over this whereas you don't. I am clearly not the be all, end all on this topic. I'm not stating that Griffin isn't a very good player, or that he won't become an excellent player, what I am saying is I personally don't think he will become elite unless he can develop his own game.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Why can't both teams be happy with the trade? The Redskins got their QB and the Rams filled numerous holes and have 2 more 1st rounders coming. win/win for both teams.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Why can't both teams be happy with the trade? The Redskins got their QB and the Rams filled numerous holes and have 2 more 1st rounders coming. win/win for both teams.
Because RGIII is a better QB than Sam Bradford.

And lesser QB + things < better QB in the NFL. Unless those things equal out to the 2002 Bucs defense or the 2000 Ravens defense. So good luck finding Derrick/Warren Sapp/Ronde Barber/John Lynch/Simeon Rice or Ray Lewis/Rod Woodson/Sam Adams/Peter Boulware/Chris McAllister in the next couple of drafts.

(I'm only saying that half-sarcastically. The Rams could draft incredibly well and build a super power around Bradford. The chances are very slim, but it's possible.)
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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My thing with RGIII is a lot of his numbers are inflated by the system he is in. In the games I've watched of his, so many of his passes are behind the line of scrimmage or just beyond. Not that hard to complete those. He doesn't throw many picks because 90% of what he does is so low risk. Defenses will adjust next year so that the Redskins will have to do more things down field, over the middle, and higher risk. How RGIII adjusts to that different style will go a long way in answering this question.
The bolded is why I think many of you are making evaluations on RGIII based on assumptions and really haven't watched consecutive games or even quarters of RGIII.
Robert doesn't throw picks because of his decision making, not the scheme.

Yes the Skins have bubble screens in the playbook, but there hasn't been one game where the majority of his passes have been to the sideline, or IMO even a third.
That's why I asked in another thread where people are getting the stat that Robert has thrown more passes behind the LOS than any QB in the NFL.

But if people want to conclude that RGIII is a system QB and that he's running a majority of offensive sets that are atypical for the the NFL, fine.

Here's a clip of the Skins game against the Bucs highlighting all of the passing plays. Notice how the playcalls and scheme have little resemblance to the gameplan against the Giants.

No options. Nothing gimmicky.
This is Mike/Kyle's basic play action, bootleg passing game.

The Skins offense is so multiple that if you aren't watching more than a handful of games, you really don't get that the scheme can literally be flipped on its head from one game to another.

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Old 12-05-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Because RGIII is a better QB than Sam Bradford.

And lesser QB + things < better QB in the NFL. Unless those things equal out to the 2002 Bucs defense or the 2000 Ravens defense. So good luck finding Derrick/Warren Sapp/Ronde Barber/John Lynch/Simeon Rice or Ray Lewis/Rod Woodson/Sam Adams/Peter Boulware/Chris McAllister in the next couple of drafts.

(I'm only saying that half-sarcastically. The Rams could draft incredibly well and build a super power around Bradford. The chances are very slim, but it's possible.)
The better QB doesnt always win, Eli vs Brady, but I wont say it doesnt improve the odds exponentially. Theres not one set way to win in the NFL. The Rams picked up Janoris Jenkins with one of the picks from Wash, and hes looking more and more like the ROY on the defensive side.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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I think you're all totally overreacting to the start of both players' careers. I want to see RG3 play more than 12 games in an offense that's probably going to have to keep evolving to remain successful before I decide he's worth more than sticking with Bradford and getting an assload of high picks.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Not trying to kill your vibe on your QB but if I'm being perfectly honest, that was underwhelming, especially considering the stats. He maybe made one above average throw in the first 9:30 minutes of that video I watched. The rest were slants, open throws to the flat or dump offs. It felt like watching a fast Matt Barkley.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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Wait, you're telling me Mark Sanchez ISN'T a steallar QB? Mind blown. But seriously, stellar was the wrong word for Vince Young. But people were talking about how great Young was after his rookie season (deserved or not) and we all know how he turned out.

My thing with RGIII is a lot of his numbers are inflated by the system he is in. In the games I've watched of his, so many of his passes are behind the line of scrimmage or just beyond. Not that hard to complete those. He doesn't throw many picks because 90% of what he does is so low risk. Defenses will adjust next year so that the Redskins will have to do more things down field, over the middle, and higher risk. How RGIII adjusts to that different style will go a long way in answering this question.
Quoted for truth. People are all over his nuts just like they were for Newton last year. Defenses adjusted to the Panthers offense just like they will for the Redskins in year two.

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Old 12-05-2012, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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My thing with RGIII is a lot of his numbers are inflated by the system he is in. In the games I've watched of his, so many of his passes are behind the line of scrimmage or just beyond. Not that hard to complete those. He doesn't throw many picks because 90% of what he does is so low risk. Defenses will adjust next year so that the Redskins will have to do more things down field, over the middle, and higher risk. How RGIII adjusts to that different style will go a long way in answering this question.
It's a strange thing that in college, we take all stats with a grain of salt with system, style of play, level of competition, etc. where as in NFL, it feels like a lot of people act like all stats are created equal. Those variables are smaller factors when you get the pros but it's silly to think that numbers can't be inflated due to system too.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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I don't think the system is a big deal. Players are put in the best situations so they can win games. I don't think just anyone with Griffin's skillset can do what he is doing. He still has to read defenses and make the right decisions at the right time in that system to be successful.
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