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Old 12-05-2012, 04:50 PM    (permalink
y.f.s.
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Originally Posted by bigbuc View Post
Not saying he won't be a 1st rounder. But this top 10 talk has to slow down.
Why? (10 char)
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Why? (10 char)
JPP went 15th in a much weaker draft (from a DE perspective). This class is stronger and deeper than that one. There are a lot of other players that could go top 10.

I still think he's a top 25 lock, though.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by descendency View Post
JPP went 15th in a much weaker draft (from a DE perspective). This class is stronger and deeper than that one. There are a lot of other players that could go top 10.

I still think he's a top 25 lock, though.
So it's impossible for him to go higher than JPP went? Why? Isn't it likely teams will have learned from the mistake of letting JPP fall to the 15th pick?
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mdmgrand View Post
Yeah I really want the Browns to take a long look at Ansah and Dion Jordan do to their versatility and athleticism.

I bet Ansah flies up draft boards with a good workout and ends up being a Top 10, possibly Top 5 pick. We might see a showing at the combine that can rival Mario Williams, who, to me, had the best combine ever considering his massive size.

1. Moore
2. Ansah
3. Jordan
4. Werner
5. Mingo
6. Okafor
7. Montgomery
8. Simon
9. Carradine
10. Lemonier
I can name more than a few players recently (Since Mario) who have had better combines then Mario Williams.

JJ Watt being one of them.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Duffman57 View Post
I can name more than a few players recently (Since Mario) who have had better combines then Mario Williams.

JJ Watt being one of them.


Really list some names, H/W/40/BJ/V
H....W......40....10...Bench...BJ...Vert
6'7 295 4.70, 1.60, 35 reps, 10, 40 1/2
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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There is only one other recent combine in the Mario Williams class of athleticism and that's Vernon Davis.....
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by y.f.s. View Post
So it's impossible for him to go higher than JPP went? Why? Isn't it likely teams will have learned from the mistake of letting JPP fall to the 15th pick?
All I am saying is that there is a much wider and stronger selection of pass rushers this year. Whereas a team in 2010 might have drafted a guy and forced him into their system, this year you have guys that provide a much broader range of options. If you need a pass rusher, you don't have to compromise as much.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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JJ Watt being one of them.
Mario Williams was 295 and ran a 4.7

JJ Watt was 290 and ran a 4.85.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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Who cares about 40 times. It's the 10-yard split that really matters.

Besides in Watt's case, it's not the 40 time that impresses, it's the 3-cone: 6.88, and short shuttle: 4.21. Those are ridiculous times for a 295-pounder. By comparison, AJ Green (211 lbs) had a 6.91 3-cone and identical 4.21 short shuttle.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2011&genpos=DE
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mdmgrand View Post
There is only one other recent combine in the Mario Williams class of athleticism and that's Vernon Davis.....
Vernon is another...

Taylor Mays is another (again, just listing combine blowups)
How bout some Dontari Poe
Hell what about Patrick Peterson

All those guys are close.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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I can name more than a few players recently (Since Mario) who have had better combines then Mario Williams.

JJ Watt being one of them.
Michael Johnson had a great combine as well.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Posted this on the Bucs team board and thought it would apply here:

Just rewatched the BYU-San Diego St. game... I have to say, I was thoroughly unimpressed with Ziggy Ansah.

A big reason for not being impressed likely had to do with how Ansah was utilized by BYU on D.

First to go over the positives:
His closing speed is excellent. Once he decides to open up his hips and give chase, his speed is apparent on film and could be a major asset.

He has a fantastic motor. No matter where the ball was, he always gave chase. On one particular play, a screen, Ansah missed the tackle (a soccer style-looking slide tackle), got up, then made the tackle 25 yards downfield.

His strength is a plus. He was double teamed often, and even more often he lined up at 5-technique and then stunted inside taking on the guard and was able to stand toe-to-toe with a much bigger Olineman and usually not give ground. He does not have great strength as a 2-gap DL, but he is definitely not weak.

The negatives:
Due to BYU's scheme, he was constantly head up on the opposing OLinemen so it is impossible to see him display the skills needed to be successful as a 4-3 DE.

He stands nearly straight up at the snap. His head pops up, then his body follows. He is quick to engage an OL, and although he does a pretty good job with his hands, in pass rush he doesn't use his speed at all.

His first step explosion is completely negated by a sloppy loose stance and taking short choppy steps. Again, this is probably part of the scheme at BYU. No DL ever looked to hit a hard edge, bend and turn the corner. On obvious passing downs, Ansah was often moved to NT where it was even harder to see if he had the first step explosion, stride, and lean to get to the QB.

Even when he was "trying" to rush the passer, he was often the furthest BYU DL from the QB. The announcers even said on the ball that he intercepted that he was playing like a spy on the play. He wasn't spying, he just got ZERO penetration on the play. He got no penetration on many other plays as well, getting stoned at the LOS. Again, this could have a lot to do with BYU's scheme and also perhaps he wasn't supposed to get much penetration to keep the QB in the pocket.


Anyway, after watching there were little questions I had about him that were answered. At this point, it would be a stretch to project Ansah into round 1. The good news is that he accepted his invite to the Senior Bowl and his ability to get off the ball and turn the corner in the one on one drills will be on display for all the world to see. But at this stage, despite Ansah's obvious physical advantages, his situation reminds me quite a bit of Miami's DE Allen Bailey and UNC's DT Marvin Austin. As for Bailey, I never saw him run the arc and despite his freakish athletic ability, he was slow off the ball, lacked pass rush technique, and didn't live up to his press clippings. In comparison to Marvin Austin, it was widely known that Austin was an athletic marvel, but he often failed to get penetration (though Austin was routinely pushed 10 yards downfield in college) or distinguish himself... Okay, comparing him to Austin might be a bit much because I absolutely hated Austin as a prospect and I'm still intrigued with Ansah. But for right now, the comparison to Bailey, perhaps due to scheme, is warranted. His athleticism may still be JPP 2.0, but from what I've seen so far, he has a lot to prove.

I say he is no better than a mid 2nd at this point... he has a ton of chance to improve at both the Senior Bowl and combine.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by brasho View Post
Posted this on the Bucs team board and thought it would apply here:

Just rewatched the BYU-San Diego St. game... I have to say, I was thoroughly unimpressed with Ziggy Ansah.

A big reason for not being impressed likely had to do with how Ansah was utilized by BYU on D.

First to go over the positives:
His closing speed is excellent. Once he decides to open up his hips and give chase, his speed is apparent on film and could be a major asset.

He has a fantastic motor. No matter where the ball was, he always gave chase. On one particular play, a screen, Ansah missed the tackle (a soccer style-looking slide tackle), got up, then made the tackle 25 yards downfield.

His strength is a plus. He was double teamed often, and even more often he lined up at 5-technique and then stunted inside taking on the guard and was able to stand toe-to-toe with a much bigger Olineman and usually not give ground. He does not have great strength as a 2-gap DL, but he is definitely not weak.

The negatives:
Due to BYU's scheme, he was constantly head up on the opposing OLinemen so it is impossible to see him display the skills needed to be successful as a 4-3 DE.

He stands nearly straight up at the snap. His head pops up, then his body follows. He is quick to engage an OL, and although he does a pretty good job with his hands, in pass rush he doesn't use his speed at all.

His first step explosion is completely negated by a sloppy loose stance and taking short choppy steps. Again, this is probably part of the scheme at BYU. No DL ever looked to hit a hard edge, bend and turn the corner. On obvious passing downs, Ansah was often moved to NT where it was even harder to see if he had the first step explosion, stride, and lean to get to the QB.

Even when he was "trying" to rush the passer, he was often the furthest BYU DL from the QB. The announcers even said on the ball that he intercepted that he was playing like a spy on the play. He wasn't spying, he just got ZERO penetration on the play. He got no penetration on many other plays as well, getting stoned at the LOS. Again, this could have a lot to do with BYU's scheme and also perhaps he wasn't supposed to get much penetration to keep the QB in the pocket.


Anyway, after watching there were little questions I had about him that were answered. At this point, it would be a stretch to project Ansah into round 1. The good news is that he accepted his invite to the Senior Bowl and his ability to get off the ball and turn the corner in the one on one drills will be on display for all the world to see. But at this stage, despite Ansah's obvious physical advantages, his situation reminds me quite a bit of Miami's DE Allen Bailey and UNC's DT Marvin Austin. As for Bailey, I never saw him run the arc and despite his freakish athletic ability, he was slow off the ball, lacked pass rush technique, and didn't live up to his press clippings. In comparison to Marvin Austin, it was widely known that Austin was an athletic marvel, but he often failed to get penetration (though Austin was routinely pushed 10 yards downfield in college) or distinguish himself... Okay, comparing him to Austin might be a bit much because I absolutely hated Austin as a prospect and I'm still intrigued with Ansah. But for right now, the comparison to Bailey, perhaps due to scheme, is warranted. His athleticism may still be JPP 2.0, but from what I've seen so far, he has a lot to prove.

I say he is no better than a mid 2nd at this point... he has a ton of chance to improve at both the Senior Bowl and combine.
He also spent a majority of the time at DT/NT.

I try to consider how his ability clogging lanes and fighting with strong, interior linemen will supplement his natural athleticism and length as a 3-4 OLB.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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BYU just doesn't seem to be using him correctly. I think he is a first round talent who is far from hitting his potential or knowing how to. Senior Bowl shall be interesting.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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How about LB Kyle Van Noy. He had a great game. You think he will declare for the NFL draft?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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BYU just doesn't seem to be using him correctly. I think he is a first round talent who is far from hitting his potential or knowing how to. Senior Bowl shall be interesting.
They're trying to win games by putting him at DT/NT because everyone else is just less talented.

Imagine him on the edge with 5 men on the line consistently. Or imagine Ansah playing next to himself, which is basically what Van Noy gets to do.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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He also spent a majority of the time at DT/NT.

I try to consider how his ability clogging lanes and fighting with strong, interior linemen will supplement his natural athleticism and length as a 3-4 OLB.
Exaaactly.

Although it makes it more challenging as an evaluator to not see him in an edge rushing role often, this draft game is all about projecting players' games and skillsets. In theory, his experience inside will have made him a much more physical player with better hand use who has learned to feel and react to pressure better than he ever would have playing outside. So now you have a guy with elite length, elite athleticism and a great motor who has has proven he can play physically and use his hands and length to separate/disengage from blockers. Although it makes for a tougher evaluation and he hasn't exactly proven himself in that specific role, he projects very well to that role because those acquired skills combined with his physical prowess.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jared3 View Post
How about LB Kyle Van Noy. He had a great game. You think he will declare for the NFL draft?
He had a fantastic game, didn't he?! Always around the ball, goes hard, fairly athletic. The announcers kept talking about how Van Noy had everything including size. To me, that is his biggest question mark. Perhaps it is his #3 jersey, or because he is tiny... he just doesn't look 6'3 235 (and even if he was, that is still small by NFL 3-4 OLB standards)... he looks like a safety.

It wouldn't be uncommon for a BYU prospect to come out early, because with a lot of BYU players that went on missions, coming out one year early, is still coming out one year late.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
Exaaactly.

Although it makes it more challenging as an evaluator to not see him in an edge rushing role often, this draft game is all about projecting players' games and skillsets. In theory, his experience inside will have made him a much more physical player with better hand use who has learned to feel and react to pressure better than he ever would have playing outside. So now you have a guy with elite length, elite athleticism and a great motor who has has proven he can play physically and use his hands and length to separate/disengage from blockers. Although it makes for a tougher evaluation and he hasn't exactly proven himself in that specific role, he projects very well to that role because those acquired skills combined with his physical prowess.
Yes, but fighting with and kicking these less talented interior linemen's rears are two different things. He doesn't stand out usually when he lines up inside, he hand fights, he looks to engage, he has a decent spin move, but for the most part it looks to me to be a waste of his talents.

In Aldon Smith's last season in Missouri, he was often lined up inside at 3-tech and not only did he produce, but he was a constant disruption. To me, showing that a player CAN do a desired task is far different than a player showing he is good at it.

I mean, would it be that hard for the BYU coaches to put the guy on the outside once or twice a game and ask him to hit a hard edge, lean, and turn the corner? Just for me! But instead they line him up at NT and watch him chop his feet and hand fight with the OC.... the Senior Bowl week will be big for him.... he has to show that he is more than just a hand-fighter and run and chase athlete.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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In Aldon Smith's last season in Missouri, he was often lined up inside at 3-tech and not only did he produce, but he was a constant disruption. To me, showing that a player CAN do a desired task is far different than a player showing he is good at it.
And Aldon dominated immediately in the NFL. I look at what Ansah has shown and I see someone with similar upside, but we need more time to develop.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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Why? (10 char)
Yeah, doesn't somebody who's a consensus low 1 or high 2 usually end up going in the top 15 or so picks every year?

I mean, Bruce Irvin, Christian Ponder, Tyson Alualu, Darius Heyward-Bey, etc.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, doesn't somebody who's a consensus low 1 or high 2 usually end up going in the top 15 or so picks every year?

I mean, Bruce Irvin, Christian Ponder, Tyson Alualu, Darius Heyward-Bey, etc.
Also, I think an argument could pretty easily be made that he has the highest upside of any player in this draft.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Is he in play for Philly at 4? Did he do enough at the combine to show he can stand up?
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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I like my Robert Quinn comparison
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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Is he in play for Philly at 4? Did he do enough at the combine to show he can stand up?
Yes, he did. He was amazing in drills. Great agility and balance that defies his physical dimensions.
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