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Old 12-11-2012, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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So how many players are still there from that 1-15 team? Coaches, GM's?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
It's when people make assertions that RGIII has difficulty reading defenses, or only makes one or two reads before scrambling is the reason why I as a SKinsfan feel people are making evaluations without having watched an entire Skins game.
I haven't read through every post in this thread, but I don't really think that assertion is being made.

My assertion is that the Redskins offense, through formations and play design, is able to get clearly defined defensive looks. You have to run an 8 man front against them, because the threat of him running gives the offense a numbers advantage in the box and in the run game. Remember, there's only so many things you can do Coverage wise from an 8 man front (you've either gotta run a single-high coverage, or a no-safety coverage - basically Cover 1, 3, or 0). So in that sense, he's able to completely dictate what the defense does simply by being on the field. That makes things easier for him and the Redskins O.

Again, they're seeing clearly defined looks and coverages, because RG3 and the offensive design puts the defense in such a conflicting run/pass bind - especially the 2nd and 3rd level defenders who are keying off backfield action. That's not something that should be held against RG3, since he is the catalyst.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR

Last edited by y.f.s. : 12-11-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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again, that is an inaccurate assumption. Funbuncher hit the nail on the head. Maybe the fact that rg3 is so fast at processing his reads that you guys aren't seeing it. Now I will agree that he's not back there every play scanning the field because this offense has so many different caveats. But when he does he's been phoenominal. But u can't knock him for that. He should only be judged on what he's asked to execute. I know everything he does isn't traditional but that's because he's so dangerous in every aspect of the game the staff would be dumb not to use all his ability to create mismatches for a defense. When you have a QB with the release of Arod (.35 sec), and the burst (0-15 mph in 1 sec) and top gear speed of Adrian Peterson you have the opportunity to develop an offense that is unprecedented, and the skins have done that. When Giants players say that RG3 is harfer to defend than Drew Brees (as a rookie) you know you have a special talent.

This award isn't about win's and losses (that's more of a team accolade). It's about the best offensive rookie, period. When you take into account everything he's done in the air and on the ground and then look at the numbers and him leading the NFL in multiple categories (again as a rookie) there isn't really anything you can look at and say definitively that Luck has been better than RG3.

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See this is the type of post which actually warrants a decent response. Look, I don't think anyone is stating that he can't go through multiple progressions, it's more to the point of the offense is tailored to limit his exposure to having to do so on a regular basis.

Part of the difficulty in reading defenses and checking through your progressions is being able to do so in a very short space of time and make the correct decision. Either being slow at recognising coverages and route progressions or having to do it twice is a fault of Griffin's, one that everyone within the Redskin's organisation will be anxious gets worked on maniacally throughout the offseason.

However, this year, and to their credit, the Shanahan's have designed an offense to limit his exposure to the rush while giving him time to work on this aspect of the game. It's tough to argue with the numbers he has put up, however we see a completely different QB when he has to pass on anything more than manageable distances.

RG3 is able to improvise on plays a lot because of his athleticism, however there is a real chance he can end up like Michael Vick if he keeps going like this. Scramble drills where the QB buys time gives the WRs and TEs more time to uncover and make throws easier. But it isn't a consistent way to move the chains. Against the Saints the Redskins lined up in pistol formation and ran play action boot left. RG3 had the FB in the flat free and would have easily picked up the first. However he didn't take it, ran around for a bit and hit Fred Davis throwing across his body. It doesn't take an NFL expert to realise that throwing against your momentum is not a good idea.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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So how many players are still there from that 1-15 team? Coaches, GM's?
So how many new players/coaches are contributing just as much or more so than Luck?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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I imagine a world without you presence would be a much better one. I know this thread w/o your presence would up the quality quite a bit.
Meh, I'm sure the world would be pretty indifferent either way if it was +/- one college aged white guy in Connecticut, but that is just my opinion.

As far as the RGIII/Luck thing goes, I've generally tried to avoid this thread because of the general terribleness of this abortion of discussion, but I think RGIII should be OROTY. You can't really hold it against him because his offense has been so successful thus far. His exceptional ability to move the football with his legs coupled with some solid accuracy has been deadly to opponents so far. It's a testament to his physical and mental traits as a player that he has been so successful early in his career.

With that said if given the choice today between the 2 of them I'd take Luck without hesitation. You see so much of what Luck is going to become in every game you see him play. He has about 3-5 throws every game where you basically throw up your hands and say "Yup this guy is going to be the best one day". The way he has been t'd off on all season behind his O-line and you still see the determination to hang in there and throw down the field is incredible. He's basically everything we've ever wanted Jay Cutler to become with his godawful supporting cast. His ball placement is incredible on most throws, but I think he's had to attempt too many difficult passes on the run which has boosted his turnovers. A better O-Line is going to make him an absolute stud.

Griffin is playing awesome, and who is to say that people ever really begin to stop the offense he's running, but Luck is 2 years away from being every bit as good as Rodgers, Manning, and Brady are now. I think RGIII has a lot more work to do on his game to take it to that level. Again it has no bearing on this year's race, which is why RGIII should be ROTY.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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I've seen quite a few games of both and I can't (without sitting down and grading the games) tell you which is better. It's really close.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.
LOL but you don't really care, right? Because your life is so great and as a doctoral candidate you're totally above all this silly "rep" business. You're just complaining about it BECAUSE you don't care.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.
No one messes with Scotty.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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So how many new players/coaches are contributing just as much or more so than Luck?
I forgot Luck has had no help all season. Sorry about that.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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I forgot Luck has had no help all season. Sorry about that.
I was just wondering specifically who it was, be it players or coaches that you were referring to that had just as much of an impact to that teams turn around as Luck.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.
It's virtually impossible to overdose on Acid. It'd cost a small fortune just to get enough to attempt it.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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No one messes with Scotty.

You're guys circle jerks must be amazing (not that there is anything wrong with that). I guess you have to make due somehow though.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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You're guys circle jerks must be amazing (not that there is anything wrong with that). I guess you have to make due somehow though.
Come on professor you're better than that.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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The Colts were so bad last season because they didn't have even an average NFL backup starting for them.
They would have won at least 5 games IMO with Rex Grossman as their starter.
Indy just didn't have decent mediocre QB talent to put in when Peyton went down, I don't think they were this God awful, worst-team-in-the-history-of-the game type unit. They literally had no backup QB capable of playing in the NFL.

Still, the biggest argument in favor of Luck winning OROTY is his his W-L record.
Otherwise statistically his passing numbers aren't impressive, except his passing yardage. Luck's completion percentage and turnovers are in stark contrast to the other top 2 rookie QBs this season.

I admit I haven't seen more than 2 consecutive quarters of any game Luck has played this season. But that was enough to see his truly outstanding moments, and those times when Luck doesn't look anything like the best QB prospect in a generation.

BTW I do think RGIII has played smarter than Luck this season, as evidenced by his dramatically fewer turnovers than Luck. At times Luck seems reckless when he passes the football compared to Griffin's decision making process.

The reason I have a beef with some of the arguments in favor of Luck being the best rookie QB playing this season is because oftentimes his pro-arguments veer off into the subjective and esoteric. People have made solid arguments however in this thread favoring Luck that don't rely on phrases like 'football IQ' and 'stats don't matter'.

Shanahan said before the draft he was trading up to the 2nd overall for only two players, and that he was fine with either one.

Honestly that's how I feel too about whoever wins this award.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Oh jesus her we go with the neg rep waterfall from the highschool crowd. Go OD on some acid or something please.
How many points has this thread cost you, now? Gotta be pushing 30 Gs, right? Was it all worth it?
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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I was just wondering specifically who it was, be it players or coaches that you were referring to that had just as much of an impact to that teams turn around as Luck.
The point is that no one knows how good Luck would have made that 2-14 team last year. It's irrelevant to make the case that he took a 2-14 team to the playoffs because the team is practically brand new. There is barely any coorelation from last year to this year because of all the turnover. New philosophy, new defensive scheme, new offense, best of all no Caldwell or Polian. There is a huge difference between this years Colts than last. Better drafting, solid FA acquisitions, better coaching. Sure Luck is a huge part of that and will continue to be but THIS TEAM is not the Colts of yester year.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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How many points has this thread cost you, now? Gotta be pushing 30 Gs, right? Was it all worth it?
If I cared about points I guess that would be relevant. I can't help that there's a bunch of Aholes sticking uo for their butt buddy.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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LOL but you don't really care, right? Because your life is so great and as a doctoral candidate you're totally above all this silly "rep" business. You're just complaining about it BECAUSE you don't care.
Right. The first person in this entire thread to go out of his way to talk about his profession and how above everyone he is in the world is now constantly crying about his rep being too low. This thread is just dripping with irony at this point.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Come on professor you're better than that.
I'm on a phone so, Excuse me.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Haha, I got negrepped with a quote of 'don't mess with Scotty'. Some people are just.. Wow.
Words to live by. Negged for even thinking about messing with Scotty!
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Right. The first person in this entire thread to go out of his way to talk about his profession and how above everyone he is in the world is now constantly crying about his rep being too low. This thread is just dripping with irony at this point.
Cause it's absurd to negrep someone in defense of another poster. He can stick uo for himself I'm sure.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
The point is that no one knows how good Luck would have made that 2-14 team last year. It's irrelevant to make the case that he took a 2-14 team to the playoffs because the team is practically brand new. There is barely any coorelation from last year to this year because of all the turnover. New philosophy, new defensive scheme, new offense, best of all no Caldwell or Polian. There is a huge difference between this years Colts than last. Better drafting, solid FA acquisitions, better coaching. Sure Luck is a huge part of that and will continue to be but THIS TEAM is not the Colts of yester year.
Ok I'll just ask again, what difference in FA acquisitions has been as essential to this teams success as Luck? What better coaching, their head coach has leukemia and is in the hospital. What specific draft picks outside of Luck have helped turn it around? The new defensive scheme has significantly helped turn it around, the one that is in the bottom tier of defenses in the league? Youre the one making this argument so I expect you to do a little better than vaguely giving areas of improvement and expecting that to suffice.

And when I say I expect I mean I don't expect you to at all.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Just shows what this board has become. A gagle of idiots (minus a small few and they know who they are) who cannot substantiate an argument to save their lives. And Acid isn't expensive, unless of course... Nvm, not worth it(sigh).
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
Ok I'll just ask again, what difference in FA acquisitions has been as essential to this teams success as Luck? What better coaching, their head coach has leukemia and is in the hospital. What specific draft picks outside of Luck have helped turn it around? The new defensive scheme has significantly helped turn it around, the one that is in the bottom tier of defenses in the league? Youre the one making this argument so I expect you to do a little better than vaguely giving areas of improvement and expecting that to suffice.

And when I say I expect I mean I don't expect you to at all.
I can only assume that the acquisitions of Samson Satele, who couldn't make it in the powerhouses that are Oakland and Miami, and Winston Justice, best known for letting Osi Umenyiora anally rape Donovan McNabb have made their offensive line the best unit in the league, although I wouldn't know because I don't watch games.

Also, that move to OLB for Dwight Freeney was a huge success. He's like the second coming of LT now.

And don't get me started on Darius Butler. I mean he was only cut by two teams with some of the worst secondaries in the NFL recently (NE and Car) because he was too studly.

Maybe it's the chemistry he has with Coby Fleener. I mean with the start he's had to his career I don't see how he's not the 2nd best TE in the NFL, you know right after Vernon Davis

I mean, who really wants continuity these days? Clearly if you want to win you just need to get a new coaching staff and new players. It doesn't even matter who they are, it's just the change
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