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Old 12-19-2012, 02:04 AM    (permalink
HypocrisyIsGreat
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Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
I love this thread.
Tell me right now, how would Wes Welker fare on the 49ers? Where he's playing in an offense that throws 25 times per game(if that) with far less quarterbacking ability than in NE. Take a look at Mario Manningham's stats and that's what he'd be doing. He suddenly goes from ALL-Pro receiver to meh.

Statz Statz Statz is all what welker is about. Tape shows that he's a nice slot receiver and nothing more
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:56 AM    (permalink
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I always have the same response to this question: if New England thinks they can manufacture offense with anyone, why have they invested so many dollars/picks in Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Wes Welker, and Brandon Lloyd?
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:53 AM    (permalink
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I know you guys think that Ness and abaddon are annoying homers, but have you all met Jordan and apparently the poster (hypocrisy) who is his twin? This guy joined last Thursday and, except for 1 post, did not start posting on these boards until after the niners beat the Patriots. This is his first thread started. If it's anything like the past these guys won't be around here for long. Don't exert too much of your energy here, fellas.

Go ahead and attack me boys. I don't pay attention to anything you say at this point. I've read the thread title. I'll say "yes".
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
There's that word again. "Great." People just throw that word around these days to where it has lost all its meaning.

There's nothing "great" about Wes Welker. He's "useful," maybe...in the same way Danny Amendola is useful.

And it carries far less value than you are assigning to it. Why do you think the top slot receivers are all undrafted free agents/late round draft choices, while the outside guys with size, speed, strength, and athleticism are taken early in drafts? Here's a hint: It has to do with the fact that it's much easier to find a capable slot receiver (incredibly easy) than it is to find a truly good outside receiver.
Iím not just tossing that word around. Wes Welker is a great slot receiver. Heís one of the best in the business. Being great at something and being an all-time great are two different superlatives. I have never seen someone nominate Welker as a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Thatís ridiculous. But characterizing a critical option in two of the most prolific offenses of all-time as just ďusefulĒ isnít much better.

Again, outside receivers own the premium. Given the choice, no one (in their right mind) would pick Wes Welker over Calvin Johnson. But guess what? The value of the slot receiver is rising in the draft, too. The reason? The game is gravitating toward personnel groupings. Itís a weapons game. One stud outside isnít as transformative as it used to be. Itís about putting weapons all over the place, remaining multiple, and pushing the pace.

Slot receivers contribute in all of those areas. Defenses want to defend inside-out. Thereís not a defensive coordinator that just concedes the middle of the field to an offense. Thatís their prized ground. Therefore, a slot receiver that can manipulate the middle has high value. Drags and screens arenít going to bust defenses of all sorts. Sight adjustments are a huge component.

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I'm pretty sure Tom Brady can play in any system. He can make all the throws and he is the premier quarterback in the league mechanically.

No, you can not call every player in the NFL a "system player" to any degree. That just illustrates that you don't understand what "product of a system" means.

You can put Calvin Johnson in any system and he's still a great wide receiver. Same with Andre Johnson. Same with Steve Smith.

Talent is talent.

A "product of a system" is a guy who only produces at a high level because the scheme he is in makes things easy for him. Guys who are products of a system are underwhelming players who would not produce much without being in a place where just about anyone can be productive.

Kliff Kingsbury was a product of a system at Texas Tech, for example. No scout took him seriously despite his enormous numbers. Why? Because the scheme he was in was wide open and gave him easy throws all over the field, which he easily hit.

Some great players wind up in systems like this, but their talent invariably comes through. They get what is there, and then they get more.

Any receiver could catch passes in the 49ers' offenses in the 80s and 90s, but not just anyone could break them for 80 yard touchdowns like Jerry Rice and John Taylor.

If Welker had that ability, I wouldn't say a peep about him. But he doesn't. He gets what's there and that's it. If he were great after the catch, he'd be breaking some of those catches for touchdowns.

And if he could burn someone deep, he'd be doing it. Coaches notice when players have the ability to do things like that.
Pardon the bluntness, but thatís just not true.

People love to throw out the ďproductĒ label. But itís a label of laziness. Itís a broad, convenient, generalized term that doesnít address all aspects of football.

Weíre dealing with differing degrees rather than absolutes. For example, calling Earth a planet is accurate. Calling Earth a terrestrial planet is more accurate.

Itís the same concept with ďproductsĒ in the NFL.

Tom Brady is a scheme-diverse quarterback. Heís an all-time great. A first-ballot Hall of Famer. But that doesnít change that, to a degree, heís a ďproductĒ of a situation. Heís one of the greatest quick-strike, timing passers Iíve ever seen. The Patriots make a concerted effort to tailor their scheme to those specifics strengths. And for good reason. Heís surgical in that scheme. Now, separate him from his scheme and install a different one. With the same personnel, ask him to forget underneath stuff. Ask him to take five- and seven-step drops with slow-developing vertical routes. Ask him to drive the ball downfield at an abnormal rate. Is he still a top-tier quarterback? Sure. Are his numbers still as sparkling? Those interception and completion percentages numbers are about to fluctuate.

Donít let Peyton Manning make calls at the line. Just give him a run-it signal and the exact, non-negotiable call.

Donít let Calvin Johnson run a route past the sticks.

Donít let Rob Gronkowksi release on the same amount of passes.

Donít let Geno Atkins break two-gap responsibilities.

Donít let Von Miller rush the passer.

Donít let Darrelle Revis line up in press man.

It sounds ridiculous, but NFL coaches are paid to put their assets in the best possible position. That means evaluating a skill set and building the framework of a scheme around what that person excels at. The elite are still going to be successful. But their results will differ.

Itís not the same as an unspectacular runnerís numbers jumping once he lands behind five perennial All-Proís, sure, but the ďproductĒ label is oversimplified garbage.

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
A bundle of journeymen receivers caught boatloads of passes back in the day in the run-and-shoot. Being able to make sight adjustments isn't a special attribute.
How come Chad Johnson wasnít able to do it then? After almost a decade of top-notch production, he just disappeared. He went from being a low-end number one/high-end number two to an afterthought that averaged a single catch per game.

Because it is a core attribute. A lot goes into doing it at Welkerís level. The Patriots lean on choice routes much heavier than an overwhelming number of NFL teams. That means the volume of information that Welker must compartmentalize and digest during preparations and during the game is much higher than most. He needs to memorize a wealth of nomenclature. Formations, protections, shifts, splits, motions, alerts, snap counts, etc. Then he needs to start diagnosing the defense. The alignment of safeties, the depth of safeties, the depth of corners, the alignment of linebackers, the depth of linebackers, the technique of defensive linemen, etc. Once he has his pre-snap read, he pieces together the information. What to do in response to the coverage, what to run against that defense, what depth to run it at, etc.

And thatís just against blander defenses when coming out of a huddle. Against defenses that mix up pre- and post-snap looks, he has to react and better not get it wrong. In a no-huddle situation, he has to process all of that information in a contracted period of time with simplified nomenclature.

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Funny how that "reactive genius" didn't get him open on Sunday Night...when the 49ers had Carlos Rogers shadow him all game and said, "yeah, let's see you actually beat a good corner one on one."
I was at the game and didnít focus on Welkerís matchup from start-to-finish, but there were times he gained separation and the ball wasnít thrown in his direction. Beside, itís one game. Iíve seen Welker beat Revis. Iíve seen Stevie Johnson beat Revis. Does that make them equals? No, not even close. Pros are capable of beating pros. Tramon Williams held Calvin Johnson to five catches on a 10 or so YPC clip a couple weeks ago. Does that make Calvin more useful than dominant? No, not even close.

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Circular logic.

Why didn't Edwards produce like Welker? Not because of the scheme - it's because he doesn't bring the same things Welker does.

How do we know? Because he didn't produce like Welker.
Edwards spent seven NFL seasons with five different teams. You believe that five different coaching staffs all missed on their evaluation of Edwards?

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
If It isn't all drags and screens...just a huge chunk of it. A huge chunk that separates "Oh, he's a nice little slot receiver...67 catches for 680 yards and a touchdown" from, "123 catches for 1300 yards and 7 TDs...A-gain. HALL OF FAME? You betcha!"

Darren Sproles is "quick, period." Dante Hall was "quick, period." Wes Welker is small, takes short strides, and has some quickness, but he doesn't jump off the screen with suddenness. When he takes an end-around, do you hold your breath? I sure don't.
Quick, not explosive. Welker isnít explosive. His straight-line speed leaves a lot to be desired. And I didnít claim he was the quickest receiver in the NFL either. I said heís quick. Not ďsomewhat quickĒ. Quick. No qualifiers. At the combine, he ran a 4.01 in the short shuttle. Thatís more than respectable. And he runs the best jerk route in the NFL.

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
If you don't care, why are you bothering to defend Wes Welker? It is what it is, right? It's perfectly acceptable in your mind if this guy is deified at the expense of guys who actually deserve the accolades.

So why should you care if someone on a message board bashes him just because you think he's better than said critic is suggesting?
Because thereís more to discussing football than the Hall of Fame, All-Pro, and Pro Bowl. Those things donít matter that much to me. Doesnít mean I donít love discussing football with people.

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
When was this?
In 2005, after Weis left for Notre Dame and McDaniels took over game-calling responsibilities, Branch was the ďgo-toĒ in the slot.

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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
No, that's exactly my point - as I mentioned before, Welker only gets what's there. He doesn't do much extra.

Who are Welker's contemporaries in this role in this system? Though not exactly the same scheme as it has been the past few years, nor was he in quite the same role, a certain 8th round pick named Troy Brown was merely catching 83, 101, and 97 passes. Is Wes Welker better than Troy Brown?

I think so.

Do I think Troy Brown was anything more than a decent #3 receiver? No, not at all.

When system meets talent, you'll know it because people will be ooing and ahing. Get Steve Smith to New England and you'll see what that would look like.

Or, sometimes a great talent causes them to adjust the scheme a bit and you get a whole new dimension. A certain Randy Moss comes to mind.

There's nothing prolific about Welker in New England other than it took him 120 catches to do what real top receivers can do in 70-80. I don't think he deserves extra credit for that.
How is hauling in 120 catches not prolific at all? Coaches know whatís coming. Know that No. 83 is getting his targets. For as much bemoaning as thereís been about his YPC, itís still higher than 11 YPC. Defenses donít just surrender first downs. Moving the chains is an integral part of offensive football. Welker does that.

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Not when he has no one else who can do what Lloyd/Stallworth do down the field. They've thrown screens to receivers not named Welker before a little bit, actually. I remember Randy Moss breaking one of them for a touchdown a few years ago. Funny...despite catching so many fewer screens than Welker, he did something Welker was never able to do.
But Johnson wasnít a man-beater on the perimeter either. He was relegated to a depth receiver. If itís as simple as running drags and catching screens, how come he couldnít supplant Welker? To get some return on their investment?

And using one of the most talented receivers of all-time to discredit Welker?
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:49 AM    (permalink
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The sad part is that this thread will most likely be closed soon.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:06 AM    (permalink
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You could criticize Cris Carter for the exact same thing. I don't think you'd dare, though. Am I right?
I only caught the tail end of Carter's career, and am not well enough acquainted on the topic to make an informed opinion, but if it caused him to miss out on first downs or killed his YAC ability like it does with Lloyd then yes it would be a legitimate criticism.

Lloyd could have 7 yard off coverage on 3rd and 5 and would run a slant, jump up for it, and fall down 3 yards past the line of scrimmage. His style helps him make a backshoulder throw or a diving catch along the sidelines every now and again, but it's a huge hindrance when trying to run a passing offense that is based on momentum and consistency.


If the OP wanted to make a point about Crabtree then make a point about Crabtree. It's completely unnecessary to bash somebody else to point out that your own player is doing well. Everybody has seen Welker play about a dozen or so times already, and have formed a solid opinion on him one way or another. Practically nobody outside of a Patriots fan forum would place him with the elite receivers in the game, but to say he sucks and is inherently replaceable is false. The guy has caught 75% of the passes thrown his way in his career for crying out loud.

I love Crabtree more than most, he was my 4th favorite receiver prospect since I've been following the draft behind CJ, Green, and Jones. He's finally looking like the receiver I saw at Texas Tech. However, if I was a Niners fan and wanted to convey this I'd do it like this:

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Michael Crabtree is really coming on lately, and is finally starting to live up to his potential. One of the things that makes Crabs so effective is how he attacks the ball when it's in the air. A lot of receivers wait and let the ball come to them, but he will come back for the ball and make an aggressive hands catch while simultaneously planning on turning back upfield. This was apparent in the Sunday night game when the Patriots overload blitzed leaving a Patriots corner in man coverage on the outside. Seeing the cushion given to Crabtree, Kaepernick decided to throw a button hook knowing that it would be an easy completion. Crabtree caught this easily and turned upfield. Since his balance and strength is so exceptional he easily shook off Arrington's tackle and took it the distance.

Crabtree is also effective working the sidelines and on slip screens. His body control and vision are excellent, and with proper plays and setup can really do damage on multiple routes. On a screen on first down Crabtree effectively came in for the ball drawing his cover guy on an inward trajectory and then broke back out allowing Vernon Davis to get a good block on Dennard for a 13 yard gain where he maximized every yard he could have considering the coverage. His footwork and vision allowed an easy completion for Kaepernick and kept the offense moving.

While not an amazing athlete Crabtree posses above average size and speed, and is being used effectively vertically with Kaepernick being able to fit the ball into tighter spaces than Smith was. You could see this on Crabtree's first touchdown against the Patriots. He released from the slot and faked an in cut freezing Spikes as he freely went up the seam. This created enough space between him and McCourty for Kaepernick to fit a throw in. He made an impressive basket hands catch, and took it in for the games 2nd TD.

While the 49ers offense doesn't throw much Crabtree is producing impressive numbers all things considered. He's drastically improved, and I would be interested to see how he'd produce in more of a pass first offense.
See how I did that? There were no arbitrary comparisons to guys in other systems saying if he had this QB he'd put up better numbers. I didn't belittle another receiver to pump him up, I simply stated the facts and gave people things to look for the next time they watch him. If you want to have productive conversations on 49ers players this is how you have to do it. Being combative doesn't help.

Now I can't believe I wasted all this time on a troll, but what's done is done.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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Does anyone else find the most disappointing thing in this thread to be that njx hasn't come in and destroyed the moronic arguments being made against Welker.

Leaving Cudders to argue with far too much reason and common sense when in this situation, the trolls have made up their mind and wont be swayed by such reasonable means.

Fact is really simple here... Welker has been incredibly productive and ultimately that is what matters, that is why the Patriots own their division and have played in a couple of Superbowls. Why does it matter if he gets his production because he is an athletic freak or because he is a smart player that excels in his system that is largely designed around his skillset? Fact is that he has out produced so many guys who look like they should be better.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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Cudders, you're way too nice to keep humoring this troll. He's not going to change his mind regardless of how wrong he may be. At this point the only use he can serve is for us to bait him into saying some hilariously wrong things so that some of us can get some new sig quotes.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Cudders is damothafookin man!! But sadly this is a battle you ain't gon win Cud-dawg.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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You all need to leave.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Cudders, you're way too nice to keep humoring this troll. He's not going to change his mind regardless of how wrong he may be. At this point the only use he can serve is for us to bait him into saying some hilariously wrong things so that some of us can get some new sig quotes.
Wrong about what? What impresses you about Welker? Again, you guys just keep citing the troll card but no one has addressed the fact that Welker plays on a team that throws it as often as any other team, with the best QB in football, and the majority of his plays are matchup wins vs linebackers or working a soft zone. Dependable and useful, yes, a top 5 WR he is not.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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I only caught the tail end of Carter's career, and am not well enough acquainted on the topic to make an informed opinion, but if it caused him to miss out on first downs or killed his YAC ability like it does with Lloyd then yes it would be a legitimate criticism.

Lloyd could have 7 yard off coverage on 3rd and 5 and would run a slant, jump up for it, and fall down 3 yards past the line of scrimmage. His style helps him make a backshoulder throw or a diving catch along the sidelines every now and again, but it's a huge hindrance when trying to run a passing offense that is based on momentum and consistency.


If the OP wanted to make a point about Crabtree then make a point about Crabtree. It's completely unnecessary to bash somebody else to point out that your own player is doing well. Everybody has seen Welker play about a dozen or so times already, and have formed a solid opinion on him one way or another. Practically nobody outside of a Patriots fan forum would place him with the elite receivers in the game, but to say he sucks and is inherently replaceable is false. The guy has caught 75% of the passes thrown his way in his career for crying out loud.

I love Crabtree more than most, he was my 4th favorite receiver prospect since I've been following the draft behind CJ, Green, and Jones. He's finally looking like the receiver I saw at Texas Tech. However, if I was a Niners fan and wanted to convey this I'd do it like this:



See how I did that? There were no arbitrary comparisons to guys in other systems saying if he had this QB he'd put up better numbers. I didn't belittle another receiver to pump him up, I simply stated the facts and gave people things to look for the next time they watch him. If you want to have productive conversations on 49ers players this is how you have to do it. Being combative doesn't help.

Now I can't believe I wasted all this time on a troll, but what's done is done.
The reason I bring up Crabtree is for a few reasons.

1) Both he and Welker played the same role in Mike Leach's air raid attack. One of them, however, was a 4 star recruit and the other was a try hard type.

2) Michael Crabtree plays in an offense that hardly throws it compared to other teams around the league, yet he still produces He's played with spotty QB play for his career as well. My point is this; Just how much better would a guy like Crabtree be in a wide open offense compared to a run first pistol gimmick?

The posters here just don't seem to account for scheme when rating players. As I said....Put Welker on the 49ers where he can't pad his stats(which is the only thing you people cling on to about) and he looks like any other ordinary slot receiver.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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There should be some type of forum rule that if you have enough neg rep you have a post limit for the day. The higher neg rep the lower the post limit.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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There should be some type of forum rule that if you have enough neg rep you have a post limit for the day. The higher neg rep the lower the post limit.
I think if it's approx -1000 per post then your post limit for every day should be 0
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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The reason I bring up Crabtree is for a few reasons.

1) Both he and Welker played the same role in Mike Leach's air raid attack. One of them, however, was a 4 star recruit and the other was a try hard type.

2) Michael Crabtree plays in an offense that hardly throws it compared to other teams around the league, yet he still produces He's played with spotty QB play for his career as well. My point is this; Just how much better would a guy like Crabtree be in a wide open offense compared to a run first pistol gimmick?

The posters here just don't seem to account for scheme when rating players. As I said....Put Welker on the 49ers where he can't pad his stats(which is the only thing you people cling on to about) and he looks like any other ordinary slot receiver.
1.So what does being a 4 star recruit and a try hard have to do with who is the better receiver in the NFL?

2. Crabtree produces relative to what? Because this is news to me.

3. One week we get called out for not looking at stats as the end all be all argument. Next week, all we do is cling to stats. God I wish we'd all try to be a little more consistent around here.

Also I learned today that hypotheticals become facts whenever youre trying to prove a point. This will make my senior paper come along much quicker now, thanks.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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There should be some type of forum rule that if you have enough neg rep you have a post limit for the day. The higher neg rep the lower the post limit.
That's a silly little idea of a rule and it speaks volumes about the type that post here.

Rep doesn't mean anything. We're talking football here and trying to inform the less educated that scheme type helps pad player stats. If you disagree, whatever, but the troll cards coming and the "neg reps"(whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) are useless, futile copouts from the less intelligent types. Only a few posters in this thread have actually engaged in a rational rebuttal on why they think we're wrong.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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We should probably take away Crabs stats last weekend for padding them playing against the Patriots defense.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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1.So what does being a 4 star recruit and a try hard have to do with who is the better receiver in the NFL?

2. Crabtree produces relative to what? Because this is news to me.

3. One week we get called out for not looking at stats as the end all be all argument. Next week, all we do is cling to stats. God I wish we'd all try to be a little more consistent around here.

Also I learned today that hypotheticals become facts whenever youre trying to prove a point. This will make my senior paper come along much quicker now, thanks.
Crabtree is on his way to a 1,000 yard season in an offense that hasn't seen one since T.O. It's an impressive feat, considering the design of the offense( heavy power run game with lots of minimal WR formations) and has played with average quarterbacking(we'll see how Kaepernick develops). Contrast that with Welker, who plays in an offense that throws it 40 times a game(and usually more) and you start to think to yourself "hey....maybe we shouldn't look at total stats in a vacuum when we judge offensive skill players".

I mean, you saw the game sunday night didn't you? Crabtree had 7 for 107 with a QB that had 25 passing attempts. Welker had 5 for 56 with a QB that had 60+ passing attempts. One of those QB's is a raw developmental prospect with upside....the other one is a first ballot HOF'er and likely the NFL MVP this year.

We saw Crabtree numerous times throughout the game display his impressive YAC skill, while we saw Welker get shut down by Carlos Rogers and his one big play came on a 4th and 2 play action rollout where he's wide open in the flat.

Really now....do you guys know how to watch football?
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Wrong about what? What impresses you about Welker? Again, you guys just keep citing the troll card but no one has addressed the fact that Welker plays on a team that throws it as often as any other team, with the best QB in football, and the majority of his plays are matchup wins vs linebackers or working a soft zone. Dependable and useful, yes, a top 5 WR he is not.
Who said Welker is a top 5 WR?
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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That's a silly little idea of a rule and it speaks volumes about the type that post here.

Rep doesn't mean anything. We're talking football here and trying to inform the less educated that scheme type helps pad player stats. If you disagree, whatever, but the troll cards coming and the "neg reps"(whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) are useless, futile copouts from the less intelligent types. Only a few posters in this thread have actually engaged in a rational rebuttal on why they think we're wrong.
Dude you are trolling harder than most people care to even try. You sit here and bash the **** out the Patriots skill players... No they aren't the best receiving core in the game but **** no one cares...

You carry some personal vendetta against the Patriots, their players and Wes Welker in particular. Why? Did he **** in your cereal one morning? Did he hurt you in fantasy football?

Who gives a flying **** if he isn't as good of a WR as Crabtree... I mean **** Matt Jones was a freak of an athlete but he wasn't as good of a WR as Welker. The point is he does exactly what he is supposed to do and they win because of him and every other "overrated" skill player on the Pats.

I mean put it in real life occurrences. If someone is the perfect fit in a job he is going to be more valuable to that company than the best whatever because he is the perfect fit.

So get off your high horse... stop trying to prove a ******** point because you get off on it and realize that there are other opinions out there. Hence why the saying opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Who said Welker is a top 5 WR?
The all-pro list would. And I'm sure there's many die hahhhd pat fans who think welkuhhh is Top 5 as well.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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lol what Pats fans have said anything about Welker being top 5? Again with the magic hypotheticals turning into fact to support arguments.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Dude you are trolling harder than most people care to even try. You sit here and bash the **** out the Patriots skill players... No they aren't the best receiving core in the game but **** no one cares...

You carry some personal vendetta against the Patriots, their players and Wes Welker in particular. Why? Did he **** in your cereal one morning? Did he hurt you in fantasy football?

Who gives a flying **** if he isn't as good of a WR as Crabtree... I mean **** Matt Jones was a freak of an athlete but he wasn't as good of a WR as Welker. The point is he does exactly what he is supposed to do and they win because of him and every other "overrated" skill player on the Pats.

I mean put it in real life occurrences. If someone is the perfect fit in a job he is going to be more valuable to that company than the best whatever because he is the perfect fit.

So get off your high horse... stop trying to prove a ******** point because you get off on it and realize that there are other opinions out there. Hence why the saying opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
Go ahead and explain how I'm "trolling". That term has gotten so outdated that people like you don't even know what it means anymore. Anything contrary to groupthink these days is "trolling". Einstein was the world's biggest troll huh? Lmfao....

I don't carry any vendetta towards Pats players. Vince Wilfork has been the most dominant NT of this generation, and should be a hall of famer. Brady is a douche, but he's damned good, and I respect the hell out of his game.

Hell, even Gronk I will admit is a very talented TE. Hernandez is more scheme crap, but Gronk is a legitimate matchup nightmare and unlike many of the other Patriot skill players(aside from Lloyd), he would do pretty well in other offenses(though not quite as good, because not many teams throw it as much as the Pats).

You're cursing too much and you can't come up with a coherent argument. It sounds like you're just mad, and you need to unplug the internet and go play catch with your kid for a little while.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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That's a silly little idea of a rule and it speaks volumes about the type that post here.

Rep doesn't mean anything. We're talking football here and trying to inform the less educated that scheme type helps pad player stats. If you disagree, whatever, but the troll cards coming and the "neg reps"(whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) are useless, futile copouts from the less intelligent types. Only a few posters in this thread have actually engaged in a rational rebuttal on why they think we're wrong.
Ok, well you started a thread called "So do people still believe the Patriots skill players are good?" If you would like a well thought out response this question then here it is...yes

Now, it is clear the motive behind the thread was to criticise Welker, and that's fine, however people have backed up why they think Welker is a valuable weapon for the Pats yet all you have done is say anyone could do it, imagine Crabtree on the Pats, blah blah blah

If it was such an easy thing to do more teams would do it. It has been stated that the fact the top slot WRs were undrafted "try hard" guys because they were easier to find, however guys like Percy Harvin, Randall Cobb etc disprove that theory, and someone like Tavon Austin will continue to disprove that theory in April.

Michael Crabtree can do a lot more than what Welker can, but it's a silly hypothetical to say that he could do what Welker is doing in New England only better. Firstly because Tom Brady is a guy who needs to have confidence in his WRs before he will throw him the ball. It happened with Johnson last year. He ran the wrong routes, lined up incorrectly and dropped some passes. After that Brady just didn't trust him and it became evident.

The Pats offense is based on the WRs being on the same page as Brady, being able to identify coverages and run the appropriate route and then to make the play. The 49ers offense is completely different. I don't know enough about it to determine what all is asked of their WRs, however I can say for almost certainty that no team in the NFL runs as many option routes as the Pats. How can you sit there, with no extra information and declare that Crabtree will simply fit in with the Pats and be able to be on the same page with Brady pre snap, identify the defense based on tendancies learned through film study, identify how he is being covered (inside leverage, outside, bracket coverage, zone), identify the protection issues (is he the hot read on a blitz?) and then run the correct route at the correct depth with the correct timing?

Simple answer is you can't. You can assume that Crabtree could simply waltz into New England and do all of this, but nothing I have seen from him says he would be perfect at it 100% of the time, and there is nothing that can prove it because it is a hypothetical situation. You can try to project how any player will do on any team, but there's a reason why players bust when drafted, there's a reason why free agents fail. Because nothing is guaranteed. Welker does what he does and there is a tangible product at the end. Guessing that Crabtree could do similar or better means nothing
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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I think we need better analogies here because I'm not going to read anything longer than a paragraph or two.

Wes Welker is like that pretty hometown girl who cooks for you, does laundry, and doesn't cheat on you. His attributes aren't the greatest, but he's pretty cute, not fat, and is always at home and not at the club with some other dude.

Other wide receivers are like actresses/models. They look better on the outside, but when Ryan Gosling has them alone in his trailer...its over. The sex is great, but sometimes you just want that hometown girl that you can trust. That's Wes Welker. He's not the flashiest, but for better or worse, he's always there.
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