Poll: Rookie of the Year (week 16) - Page 3

FUNBUNCHER · 12-19-2012, 06:22 PM

I think the guy with the best motivational message on his locker to himself should be the favorite!

descendency · 12-19-2012, 06:42 PM

I knew someone with a shirt that said "The team is only at its best when I am at mine." (or something to that effect)

wogitalia · 12-19-2012, 07:57 PM

There are two trains of thought on this...

Is the OROY an Offensive Player of the Year award or a Most Valuable Player award, the criteria are different for those two awards and really the two awards sum up the thoughts.

If it's the Offensive Player of the Year path, it's between RGIII and Wilson. It's a stat based award with very little emphasis to be placed on anything else. Those people who think the OROY should mimic that award will defend their guys because quite simply, Luck's stats don't hold up to a purely statistical concept.

If it's the MVP award then it swings in Luck's favour. He means far more to his team, shoulders a far bigger burden and is asked to do much more for his team to win and all the teams are winning at the same rate, meaning that Luck should lead under this criteria.

Given that there is no set criteria for the award, it isn't in writing anywhere whether it's the best statistical offensive rookie or the most valuable offensive rookie you end up with two groups both with equally strong cases under their criteria.

For what it's worth I don't think that either argument is wrong, just different.

G Mobile · 12-19-2012, 08:39 PM

Very nice post to summarize the 2 basic trains of thought here. Both sides have valid reasons, but they just approach the award with a different perspective. I don't see anyone as a clear and away favorite for the award, but I understand how some people do see one.

Alternatively, lolz @ RG3. Even Kirk Cousins can get it done with that offense. RG3 is just a Shannahan mirage. Can you say 3rd down ?!? More like RG 3 & out. Right?

It's even painful to sarcastically write like that.

jsagan77 · 12-19-2012, 11:54 PM

I think assuming Luck does more for his team than RG3 for his is bollocks to be completely honest. My stance is that RG3 is the better player and the stats only back up that opinion. (I know, Cousins)

Halsey · 12-20-2012, 01:42 AM

RG3 has had a great year, but many people seem to just choose to ignore that's he's missed all of one game and parts of others, including a game winning drive by Cousins.

It kind of reminds me of the MVP debate a couple of years ago between Brady and Vick. Brady played in every game, while Vick missed multiple games. Fans wanting Vick to win seemed to just refuse to acknowledge this fact.

scottyboy · 12-20-2012, 06:45 AM

the real rookie of the year:

Cardinal96 · 12-20-2012, 10:17 AM

I vote for Luck, then RG3 then Wilson.

The other thread has discussed these points ad nauseum and I am nervous that Jsagan is about to go on another RG3 rampage this thread.

You can't look at stats in a vacuum. You have to look at the talent that surrounds each of these QB's and what each is asked to do. Luck carries the Indianapolis offense. RG3 and Wilson do not carry their offenses to the same degree.

JRTPlaya21 · 12-20-2012, 10:20 AM

If we win the NFC East then idc who wins the award.

J-Mike88 · 12-20-2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinal96

You can't look at stats in a vacuum. You have to look at the talent that surrounds each of these QB's.

OK, you do that.

Lucks WRs, TEs are:
Griffins are:
Wilsons are:

Babylon · 12-20-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

It doesn't bother anyone that Luck is completing less than 50% of his passes his last three games??
I don't have anything particular against Luck, but I feel people are really forcing him as OROTY when there are other guys who've statistically been better this season.

If i cared about the subject, which i don't, i'd be happy giving the award to Griffin or Wilson, at the same time comfortable that in Luck i have the best QB going forward.

Rosebud · 12-20-2012, 01:28 PM

I don't know whether they'll give the award based on who was most productive this year or who was most impressive. But I think Luck has been the more impressive rookie because of what he's been asked to do and how much he's shown a capacity for. Yes he still has things to work on, but where guys like Wilson and RGIII are still going to have face major adjustments in the coming years, Luck is already doing a lot of what they're going to have to learn to do and so is ahead of the curve. He's just given more responsibility over his offense and team's success than the other guys, which isn't to say they aren't contributing to their team's success a lot, or htat they're not having amazing season that are much more statistically impressive, but personally I'm more impressed by what Luck's accomplishing.

XxXdragonXxX · 12-20-2012, 01:57 PM

I think there is a huge misconception regarding the type off offense that Russell Wilson runs. Read option plays are a small part of what Seattle does on offense.

FUNBUNCHER · 12-20-2012, 01:57 PM

Given more responsibility as a rookie to win by himself = poor OC.

RGIII IMO has the best offensive coaches in Kyle and Mike Shanahan among the other two OROTY candidates.

Luck unfortunately is being asked to do things like throw the ball 40+ times to win because their OC IMO is at best mediocre.

BTW I find it funny that a Giants fan who should have lost to RGIII twice is more impressed with Luck.

Damix · 12-20-2012, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Given more responsibility as a rookie to win by himself = poor OC.

RGIII IMO has the best offensive coaches in Kyle and Mike Shanahan among the other two OROTY candidates.

Luck unfortunately is being asked to do things like throw the ball 40+ times to win because their OC IMO is at best mediocre.

BTW I find it funny that a Giants fan who should have lost to RGIII twice is more impressed with Luck.

Can't really say should have lost to RGIII since it was the Redskins defense that beat us the 2nd time. I wasn't impressed with him nearly as much the 2nd game, though I'll give him points for poise.

And the Redskins lost the first game, there is no should of.

Mufasa · 12-20-2012, 03:07 PM

Luck is living off of hype still. If Brandon Weeden had the exact season Luck is having, in both stats and on field play, no one would be saying he should win ROY. But since Luck is supposed to be the greatest QB of all time everyone is handing him the award. He probably will be the best player from this class and he's still having a pretty good year, but he's not having the best season of all rookies.

njx9 · 12-20-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

OK, you do that.

Lucks WRs, TEs are:
Griffins are:
Wilsons are:

is there a point that you'll stop being intentionally deceitful or dishonest, or are you going to keep asking this leading ********? since you'll, of course, cry ignorance, is there a reason you didn't include running backs, or did you realize, midway through this post, that they dramatically tipped the scale for two of those qbs, and thus decided that maybe, just maybe, someone wouldn't notice if you didn't include them?

at least try not to be actively dishonest.

soybean · 12-20-2012, 03:25 PM

1 sack allowed, 1 holding penalty given up the entire year. Held Aldon Smith sack less.

Goes against JJ Watt this weekend:

Babylon · 12-20-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mufasa

Luck is living off of hype still. If Brandon Weeden had the exact season Luck is having, in both stats and on field play, no one would be saying he should win ROY. But since Luck is supposed to be the greatest QB of all time everyone is handing him the award. He probably will be the best player from this class and he's still having a pretty good year, but he's not having the best season of all rookies.

34 votes Luck, 38 votes for Griffin and Wilson. How is everyone handing Andrew the award.

I'd also add when Brandon Weeden leads several late game comebacks and gets his team into the playoffs people will give him his due attention. Which i doubt he will by the way.

G Mobile · 12-20-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxXdragonXxX

I think there is a huge misconception regarding the type off offense that Russell Wilson runs. Read option plays are a small part of what Seattle does on offense.

I honestly didn't really know he ran any read option plays. I am a Wilson fan and I defended him predraft because his only major flaw was height. However, Wilson is on a considerably better team than Luck of Griffin and he doesn't have to shoulder nearly as much responsibility. He is the only one of these three that has a good defense. He also has a solid run game and talented pass catchers.

Wilson is doing great and is a major positive surprise, but I don't see him winning over Griffin or Luck.

Trogdor · 12-20-2012, 03:44 PM

Since some believe this is purely a stat driven award I'd like to nominate Cousins.

68.8% completion percentage (2+% higher than RGIII)
9.7 yards per attempt (more than a yard more than RGIII)
8.3 TD percentage (compared to 5.1 by RGIII)
72.69 QBR (ESPN's revised formula) compared to RGIII at 71.27
8.61 NET yards per pass attempt compared to 7.15 for RGIII.
5.9 sack percentage compared to 7.4% for RGIII

1 Game Winning Drive and 1 4th Quarter Comeback in 1.5 games. Compared to 3 4QC and 2 GWD for RGIII.

To top it off Cousins is undefeated. Absolutely insane RGIII is taking all the votes away from him. It's unbelievable. They bring up things like:
He doesn't have enough pass attempts.
His TD to INT ratio isn't superb.
He checks down and most of his passes are at the LOS or within 5 yards.

Babylon · 12-20-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soybean

1 sack allowed, 1 holding penalty given up the entire year. Held Aldon Smith sack less.

Goes against JJ Watt this weekend:

Watt won't be lined up over Kalil but the pick seems like a great one right now.

FUNBUNCHER · 12-20-2012, 04:11 PM

Assuming all three make it to the playoffs, which rookie QB wins the most games??

If the Skins win the NFCE, I believe if the Seahawks are a WC, they would play in FedEx in the first round.

Classic.

jsagan77 · 12-20-2012, 05:19 PM

[ ] Cousins is undefeated
[ ] OP knows what he's talking about
[ ] awesome stat diving
[x] none of the above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Since some believe this is purely a stat driven award I'd like to nominate Cousins.

68.8% completion percentage (2+% higher than RGIII)
9.7 yards per attempt (more than a yard more than RGIII)
8.3 TD percentage (compared to 5.1 by RGIII)
72.69 QBR (ESPN's revised formula) compared to RGIII at 71.27
8.61 NET yards per pass attempt compared to 7.15 for RGIII.
5.9 sack percentage compared to 7.4% for RGIII

1 Game Winning Drive and 1 4th Quarter Comeback in 1.5 games. Compared to 3 4QC and 2 GWD for RGIII.

To top it off Cousins is undefeated. Absolutely insane RGIII is taking all the votes away from him. It's unbelievable. They bring up things like:
He doesn't have enough pass attempts.
His TD to INT ratio isn't superb.
He checks down and most of his passes are at the LOS or within 5 yards.

XxXdragonXxX · 12-20-2012, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Mobile

I honestly didn't really know he ran any read option plays. I am a Wilson fan and I defended him predraft because his only major flaw was height. However, Wilson is on a considerably better team than Luck of Griffin and he doesn't have to shoulder nearly as much responsibility. He is the only one of these three that has a good defense. He also has a solid run game and talented pass catchers.

Wilson is doing great and is a major positive surprise, but I don't see him winning over Griffin or Luck.

I don't know if people think that Wilson runs a lot of read option or what, but I see a ton of comments saying things like Luck is doing far more things that a pro QB has to do. I simply don't believe that's true. The only thing I see him doing that Wilson doesn't, is throwing the ball 50 times per game.