MVP as we head out of November - Page 15

Brodeur · 12-22-2012, 01:10 PM

They don't get to this point without Percy Harvin carrying them the first few weeks, which no one has mentioned at this point.

prock · 12-22-2012, 01:13 PM

What's your point? It seems like you are trying to use half of a season of Percy to discredit him, but that would be too dumb so I don't know where you're going.

cmarq83 · 12-22-2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prock

I'll take the guy single handedly taking his team into playoff contention with one of the greatest seasons of all time, and potentially the most dominant ten game stretch of all time, if he breaks 2k. You can have Brady or Manning in like their fifth best personal seasons taking an already good team to SB contention. If AD doesnt win this year, no non-QB will ever win it.

Ponder has 1 completion over 15 yards since week 10. AP is the MVP, if you've watched Ponder play for 1 quarter you know this to be true.

AntoinCD · 12-22-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prock

I'll take the guy single handedly taking his team into playoff contention with one of the greatest seasons of all time, and potentially the most dominant ten game stretch of all time, if he breaks 2k. You can have Brady or Manning in like their fifth best personal seasons taking an already good team to SB contention. If AD doesnt win this year, no non-QB will ever win it.

Single handedly? Really? Not denying Peterson's current run as being out of this world good but how about the games before hand?

In the first 6 weeks of the season Peterson averaged 83 yards per game on the ground with 2TDs

Percy Harvin averaged 90 yards receiving per game and had 3TDs

In that same stretch Christian Ponder was throwing for 239 yards per game and had 8TDs and 4INTs.

In that 6 game stretch the Vikings were 5-1. During Peterson's run they are 3-5. Peterson wasn't the Vikings MVP for the first 6 weeks of the season, Harvin was and other guys like Ponder and Rudolph were playing well too.

Stop making it sound like the Vikings were 0-6 before Peterson went on this streak. The reality is that Peterson rushing for all these yards hasn't automatically turned the Vikings into this powerhouse team. They are losing more than they are winning. The thing that is hurting this team the most is losing Percy Harvin. Ponder isn't as good without him, Rudolph is getting open as much and it is meaning Peterson is the only viable threat now on offense.

For those who say the Vikings would be a legitimate #1 pick contender without Peterson, his production in the first 6 weeks of the year were the better side of average. Replace him with a guy like Matt Forte etc and you get similar production and the Vikings were winning games, 5 to be precise. 5 wins currently is good enough to earn the 10th spot in the draft, not close to the 1st.

Now, in fairness to Peterson he was just back from a major knee injury, but that doesn't count in his favour in regards to the MVP discussion. Peterson is having a tremendous year but the Vikings aren't 8-6 just because of Peterson, he didn't carry them all season

prock · 12-22-2012, 02:08 PM

So AD had Percy for the first eight weeks and an average quarterback for the first six. This somehow discredits him?

AntoinCD · 12-22-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prock

So AD had Percy for the first eight weeks and an average quarterback for the first six. This somehow discredits him?

Not at all but it kinda does discredit the theory that AD is the sole reason the Vikings are in the playoff hunt and without him they would be pretty much winless.

The Vikings still have to play the Texans and Packers (2 of the best teams in the NFL). If they lose both they won't be in the playoffs and Peterson's great run will have culminated in a 3-7 record. Yet they were 5-1 in the first 6 games. I fail to see how Peterson's contributions in the second half of the season can be declared as true value. Wins are valuable

prock · 12-22-2012, 02:29 PM

We were 4-2. But I highly doubt we lose our last two games. The Pack coming into the dome week 17 with the crown locked up shouldnt be a huge issue. The Texans also lrt Vick Ballard run for over 5 ypc last week.

AntoinCD · 12-22-2012, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prock

We were 4-2. But I highly doubt we lose our last two games. The Pack coming into the dome week 17 with the crown locked up shouldnt be a huge issue. The Texans also lrt Vick Ballard run for over 5 ypc last week.

Lol and there was me bashing jsagan for not being able to count in the other thread.

I think the Vikings can win either of their last two games. Houston really have been shown up the last five weeks or so as somewhat of a pretender and the Packers don't instil me with confidence going in.

In saying that Houston have a pretty good front 7 and will be focused on Peterson.

The two QBs left in the discussion can't really do anything more (KC and Oak for Manning and Jax and Miami for Brady) to improve their credentials. For Peterson to win the award he is likely going to need to continue his run and bring at least one more win to the Vikings. Rightly or wrongly (personally I agree with this), I feel a lot of MVP voters will find it tough to state that most valuable player in the league is on a team who didn't make the playoffs

bigbluedefense · 12-22-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Single handedly? Really? Not denying Peterson's current run as being out of this world good but how about the games before hand?

In the first 6 weeks of the season Peterson averaged 83 yards per game on the ground with 2TDs

Percy Harvin averaged 90 yards receiving per game and had 3TDs

In that same stretch Christian Ponder was throwing for 239 yards per game and had 8TDs and 4INTs.

In that 6 game stretch the Vikings were 5-1. During Peterson's run they are 3-5. Peterson wasn't the Vikings MVP for the first 6 weeks of the season, Harvin was and other guys like Ponder and Rudolph were playing well too.

Stop making it sound like the Vikings were 0-6 before Peterson went on this streak. The reality is that Peterson rushing for all these yards hasn't automatically turned the Vikings into this powerhouse team. They are losing more than they are winning. The thing that is hurting this team the most is losing Percy Harvin. Ponder isn't as good without him, Rudolph is getting open as much and it is meaning Peterson is the only viable threat now on offense.

For those who say the Vikings would be a legitimate #1 pick contender without Peterson, his production in the first 6 weeks of the year were the better side of average. Replace him with a guy like Matt Forte etc and you get similar production and the Vikings were winning games, 5 to be precise. 5 wins currently is good enough to earn the 10th spot in the draft, not close to the 1st.

Now, in fairness to Peterson he was just back from a major knee injury, but that doesn't count in his favour in regards to the MVP discussion. Peterson is having a tremendous year but the Vikings aren't 8-6 just because of Peterson, he didn't carry them all season

To be fair, the early part of the season was an easy schedule for the Vikings, so that had a lot to do with the win/loss record.

AntoinCD · 12-22-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

To be fair, the early part of the season was an easy schedule for the Vikings, so that had a lot to do with the win/loss record.

It's a good point, and to be fair I have lessened my feelings on Peterson winning this as he has continued to go, however I just don't like the argument that the Vikings would be a bottom feeder without him performing at such a high level. Weak schedule or not, wins are wins, and as far up as week 7 people were pimping Percy Harvin as, at worst, offensive player of the year with some putting him in the MVP discussion

BuckNaked · 12-22-2012, 05:00 PM

Adrian Peterson is having the best, and most importantly, the most consistent season of his career. This is all coming off of a gruesome injury and returning in a shockingly short amount of time. IF the Vikings do indeed make the playoffs, which will be extremely tough given the remainder of their schedule, there is absolutely no question in my mind that he deserves the award.

The season he is having could potentially be historic, and he has been doing it with virtually no passing game over the past 6 games. This would also be a way of paying tribute to a guy who has been head and shoulders above every other running back who has played the position in the past decade and perhaps a top-5 back of all time. For a player of his caliber, you have to look past statistics (even though he always puts up great numbers). Watching him play week in and week out is a treat for me as a Vikings fan because he is so physically dominant and has the potential to take it to house on any given play, whether he demolishes somebody in the process or simply runs straight past them.

Teams stack nine in the box against Peterson and he continues to put up over 150 yards each week. To say that somebody such as Matt Forte could even put up half of that production with the Vikings putrid pass offense may even be a stretch. I remember arguing to death that Chris Johnson was not even in the same class as Peterson after Johnson put up his 2000 yard season and nobody seemed to agree with me. The simple fact is that year in and year out, he carries the Vikings offense (with the exception of the Brett Favre fuckfest), and he is having a career year that not one single person would have ever predicted coming off of a major ACL surgery, even for a player of his caliber. It's not some flash in the pan season, it would be one of the greatest runningbacks of all-time finally getting his due, while also potentially doing something that NOBODY HAS EVER ******* DONE BEFORE. Tom Brady is having a typical Tom Brady year, which is extraordinary, but give the award to the guy that is taking his extraordinary level of play to a level even higher than that. Brady can suck my tits. Naked out.

Jvig43 · 12-22-2012, 05:10 PM

MVP-Manning
Come back player- AD
Offensive- Brady

Pretty much how I would expect it to play it out at this point.

AntoinCD · 12-22-2012, 05:23 PM

Previous seasons are irrelevant. How much better than any other back is irrelevant. Coming off injury is irrelevant. Its not an award for most compelling story or awesome season compared to other backs, it is for most valuable player. Brady having ayear like others he has had does not make him less valuable. If Peterson wins then that's fine, people think he's most valuable. But it should not, under any circumstance, be because he came back from injury or was the best back. That's what comeback player and all pro back are for

J-Mike88 · 12-22-2012, 05:37 PM

#1- just watch the games, Peterson has been head & shoulders better than anyone else at his position. ask opposing defenses. he's also been the best player on the field week in, week out.
#1A- if you haven't watched the games, just watch the highlights.

#2- his running has gotten them into playoff contention. while harvin has mailed it in the past month or so, peterson has beaten 8 & 9-man fronts.

#3- if stats matter:

As you can see, Mr Peterson's season is in "historic" territory. Compared to all-time greats, their best seasons.

Manning, Brady, and Rodgers stats are all pretty close to each other, as are their team wins. Nobody can make a sure-fire case why either of these 3 QBs, or any other QB, has for sure done better than all the other ones. Their stats (and team wins) are too close.

Their seasons are all very solid, but they compare historically to any of the greatest ones.
Hell, Rodgers last year was way better than this year, Brady and Manning each had seasons way better than this year.

Now compare Peterson to the next best RB this season.
It's not even close.

Somebody tried to discredit Peterson's case because he didn't have the huge TD numbers that great teams' RB's had like Tomlinson, Alexander, Emmit, etc.... and that's a hollow argument.
As you can see, the great Dickerson season, Peterson at this point has the same amount of TDs. Peterson also has more yards, on 37 fewer carries.

For a Packer fan to see this and clench my teeth to admit Peterson deserves the award over the Passer Rating Leader Rodgers, and my Fantasy QB Manning, and Brady who has been almost mistake-free, that should close the f****g case right there.

Give Peterson the MVP, Brady the #2 vote.
Give Manning the comeback POY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmarq83

Ponder has 1 completion over 15 yards since week 10. AP is the MVP, if you've watched Ponder play for 1 quarter you know this to be true.

THIS sums it all up.

Ness · 12-22-2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prock

We were 4-2. But I highly doubt we lose our last two games. The Pack coming into the dome week 17 with the crown locked up shouldnt be a huge issue. The Texans also lrt Vick Ballard run for over 5 ypc last week.

Meh. Both of those teams will know that Peterson will be gunning for the rushing record. They're not just going to roll over. And the Packers might still have to fight to get or keep a first round bye in the playoffs.

AntoinCD · 12-22-2012, 05:50 PM

Harvins on IR, probably why he's mailed it in

How close he is to other RBs is irrelevant. Its not a running back award. How close the QBs are is also irrelevant.

Most rush yards in 8 game isn't everything. Its a full season award. As I mentioned he wasn't even Vikings MVP first half of the season. In fact the start of his season wasn't overly special but the Vikings had an above .500 record. They're 4-4 in that 8 game stretch.

Its clearly not an open and shut case as you believe.

If its all about Petersons dominance at his position why isn't Watt in this conversation more? After Cushing went down he's been the only consistent defender on the Texans. He is having an equally impressive year. He is seldom single blocked yet he is ******* stuff up. Watt can break an NFL record for sacks but also leads linemen in pass defenses. Is that not good enough???

J-Mike88 · 12-22-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Harvins on IR, probably why he's mailed it in

How close he is to other RBs is irrelevant. Its not a running back award. How close the QBs are is also irrelevant.

Most rush yards in 8 game isn't everything. Its a full season award. As I mentioned he wasn't even Vikings MVP first half of the season. In fact the start of his season wasn't overly special but the Vikings had an above .500 record. They're 4-4 in that 8 game stretch.

Its clearly not an open and shut case as you believe.

If its all about Petersons dominance at his position why isn't Watt in this conversation more? After Cushing went down he's been the only consistent defender on the Texans. He is having an equally impressive year. He is seldom single blocked yet he is ******* stuff up. Watt can break an NFL record for sacks but also leads linemen in pass defenses. Is that not good enough???

Only one of those graphics is the 8-game stretch... did the other ones get censored on your screen?

Watt is fantastic... fellow Badger. I hope he landslides the DPOY over Alden Smith & Von Miller.
Cool, Watt will be facing Adrian Peterson tomorrow. I expect Houston to bottle him up as they don't have to worry about anything from Ponder. What WR do you fear on that Viking club?

The problem with Watt is that he's got no prayer of winning the award. Let's be real here.
Are you down with "realistic"?

Ness · 12-22-2012, 09:31 PM

I think Harvin still at this moment leads the NFL with the most missed tackles for a player, or at least wide receivers with around 20-22 and Brandon Marshall is the next closest with 15. I'd like to see Harvin in a vertical offense with a good quarterback throwing him the ball.

FUNBUNCHER · 12-22-2012, 10:21 PM

Megatron potentially finishing the season with 2K yards receiving takes a big steamy poop over AD possibly breaking Dickerson's record.

Mufasa · 12-22-2012, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Megatron potentially finishing the season with 2K yards receiving takes a big steamy poop over AD possibly breaking Dickerson's record.

Eh, Calvin is having another crazy good year, but I'd still say he was more impressive last season.

FUNBUNCHER · 12-22-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mufasa

Eh, Calvin is having another crazy good year, but I'd still say he was more impressive last season.

Megatron started the season kinda slow. If he had begun the season the way he ended 2011, I think he'd have over 2K recieiving yards already.
I also don't think this will be the only season CJ approaches or exceeds the 2K mark.

BamaFalcon59 · 12-23-2012, 01:46 AM

Johnson's record is not nearly as impressive as Peterson's. The Lions get down, they keep throwing. The Vikings get down, they are forced to attempt passes. And the Lions are always down.

Matt Stafford is about to break the NFL record for attempts in a season, and without much difficulty. And thus far, Johnson has been the target of 190 of Stafford's passes.

FUNBUNCHER · 12-23-2012, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59

Johnson's record is not nearly as impressive as Peterson's. The Lions get down, they keep throwing. The Vikings get down, they are forced to attempt passes. And the Lions are always down.

Matt Stafford is about to break the NFL record for attempts in a season, and without much difficulty. And thus far, Johnson has been the target of 190 of Stafford's passes.

If Johnson had 140-150 receptions, I might agree with you. Except he doesn't.
The guy is ALWAYS doubled in coverage whenever he runs a route.
No one has ever done what CJ is on the verge of doing, break the 2K yard barrier for WRs.
I'm sorry but that's just more infinitely difficult for a WR to do than for a RB to reach 2105.

It's close in terms of accomplishment and difficulty, but I give the nod to catching for 2K yards as the harder goal to reach.
And who cares that Detroit throws the ball a lot?? That's their offense, that's what they do. THey throw to win games.
If AD was in a more pass oriented offense his rushing numbers wouldn't be nearly what they are now either.

For any player to be successful, he needs to play in a scheme that takes best advantage of his skillset.

AntoinCD · 12-23-2012, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

Only one of those graphics is the 8-game stretch... did the other ones get censored on your screen?

Watt is fantastic... fellow Badger. I hope he landslides the DPOY over Alden Smith & Von Miller.
Cool, Watt will be facing Adrian Peterson tomorrow. I expect Houston to bottle him up as they don't have to worry about anything from Ponder. What WR do you fear on that Viking club?

The problem with Watt is that he's got no prayer of winning the award. Let's be real here.
Are you down with "realistic"?

Which one of those graphics state Petersons value to the team? Pretty sure they're all individual stats. Which Vikings WR would I have on my team? Percy Harvin. You know the guy who through the first half of the season was the Vikings best player!

Why is Peterson more realistic than Watt exactly? Is Calvin Johnson not as impressive. He is the Lions offense. Who else has been doing anything for them? Their running game is embarassing. They are starting guys opposite him who should be stacking shelves. The Falcons knew Stafford was going to Calvin all night long yesterday but were only able to stop it once.

So many guys are having ridiculous years from an individual perspective but that doesn't make them the most valuable guys in the league.

WCH · 12-23-2012, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

If Johnson had 140-150 receptions, I might agree with you. Except he doesn't.
The guy is ALWAYS doubled in coverage whenever he runs a route.
No one has ever done what CJ is on the verge of doing, break the 2K yard barrier for WRs.
I'm sorry but that's just more infinitely difficult for a WR to do than for a RB to reach 2105.

It's close in terms of accomplishment and difficulty, but I give the nod to catching for 2K yards as the harder goal to reach.
And who cares that Detroit throws the ball a lot?? That's their offense, that's what they do. THey throw to win games.
If AD was in a more pass oriented offense his rushing numbers wouldn't be nearly what they are now either.

For any player to be successful, he needs to play in a scheme that takes best advantage of his skillset.

I agree with this, 100%. It wasn't until about a month ago that it even crossed anybody's mind that somebody might have 2000 receiving yards in a season. Johnson is only the fifth receiver to even pass 1700.