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Old 12-30-2012, 02:47 PM    (permalink
HypocrisyIsGreat
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Well let's see, Isaac Bruce, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, and Tim Brown will all not make the HOF. So does that answer your question?

Watch Welkuh get in though, lol. Hall is a joke.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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Well let's see, Isaac Bruce, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, and Tim Brown will all not make the HOF. So does that answer your question?

Watch Welkuh get in though, lol. Hall is a joke.
T.O. should be in the HOF, when he retires.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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Why would Moss and TO not get in?

Personally, I think Andre has been a bit of a victim of circumstance. Up to last year, Texans have been irrelevant and the play of his QBs hasn't always been stellar.

If he can deliver some great playoff games, it'll certainly put the voters on notice.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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Don't feed the troll....
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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You guys talking about touchdowns are killing me. That's like the guys back in the day that used to care about RBI for baseball, until we all evolved to understand that particular stat had more to do with the players surrounding you than your own talent.

What do you think Andre is catching a bunch of balls and falling down at the 10 yard line on his own because he is allergic to the endzone? Do you want to give Mike Tolbert some extra credit over a guy like Jamaal Charles back in 2010, because Tolbert went for 700 yards and 11 td's while Jamaal went for 1400 yards and 5 td's.

It is a silly argument to make to look at how many touchdowns a receiver has. For all we know the Texans scored half as many points as other teams around the league because they had no running game and no pass protection. Andre has never caught a fade pattern from the 2 for a td. Take away half of Fitzgerald's td's for that alone. Does it really matter if the Texans run it in with Foster from the 1 yard line or give Andre a cheap td?

Again, silly and not a very mature football argument to make when you bring in touchdowns. Too many other factors at play that determine that stat. Unless Andre gets a td of more than 20 yards, he is not going to get the ball in the red zone. That's just not the types of plays the Texans run.

Stick only to the stats that the receiver can control. Andre became the third player in history to have three seasons of at least 100 catches and 1,500 yards this year. Andre was the dominant receiver in the game, when healthy, for a three year stretch. That is what the Hall of Fame is about, not some random stat that has nothing to do with anything as it pertains to the game of football, such as who gets the 1 yard td, a handoff to Foster or Johnson, it's meaningless.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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You can find it silly as much as you want but if you want to be a HOFer at wideout the fact that you can't produce just ONE double digit touchdown season is very comical. Being dominant for three years is impressive. Now stretch it into 8 or 9 seasons and you may be onto something.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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Right now I would say no. But I say no to almost anyone that there can be a discussion over. If you're a true HoF player, you don't have one of these threads about you.
Only first ballot guys are non controversial HOF selections.
For everyone else there seems to be some level of debate.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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You can find it silly as much as you want but if you want to be a HOFer at wideout the fact that you can't produce just ONE double digit touchdown season is very comical. Being dominant for three years is impressive. Now stretch it into 8 or 9 seasons and you may be onto something.
I see that you are a soccer fan, so I will give you some slack.

Go look at Larry Fitzgerald's numbers.
I looked for 2009, when he scored 13 td's. Four of those were 5 yards or less.
8 of the 13 were 11 yards or less.
So, safe to say that over half of his td's were on little fade routes once the team had gotten all the way down into the red zone. He had exactly 3 td's that were not initiated within the red zone.

It does not matter who actually walks across the goalline with the ball. The game of football is about accumulating yards. A person walking across the goalline with it is incidental to the real goal of continuing to move the ball down the field. Just as incidental as all of these stats about who had the most catches for first downs or third down catches. Completely incidental to the main stat which is getting the team down the field.

Is a 9 yard catch on first and ten to get you to 2nd and 1 less important than a 2 yard catch on 3rd and 1? Of course not, only a fool would argue as much. How about a 45 yard catch that gets you from your own 35 to the other team's 20? Is that less important than a 2 yard catch that happens to get you across the goalline? Of course not, the 45 yard catch is much, much more important. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

This would be like arguing that a person is making more critical shots in basketball because his shot happens to take you from a one point deficit to being up one The other guy on the team made the other 37 points to get you back in it from being down 20, then this guy comes in and makes a bucket to pull you into the lead. so, his two points are more important because of some incidental stat.

All of the yards on a football field are of equal importance.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Too long to read and I have teams in almost every sport so I'll cut you some slack. Anyways Andre Johnson isn't a Hall of Famer. He can rack up all the yards in the world but the objective of the game is to score more points then the other team. You might not care for people knocking Andre for his touchdown numbers but yards alone aren't going to get him into the Hall.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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I see that you are a soccer fan, so I will give you some slack.

Go look at Larry Fitzgerald's numbers.
I looked for 2009, when he scored 13 td's. Four of those were 5 yards or less.
8 of the 13 were 11 yards or less.
So, safe to say that over half of his td's were on little fade routes once the team had gotten all the way down into the red zone. He had exactly 3 td's that were not initiated within the red zone.

It does not matter who actually walks across the goalline with the ball. The game of football is about accumulating yards. A person walking across the goalline with it is incidental to the real goal of continuing to move the ball down the field. Just as incidental as all of these stats about who had the most catches for first downs or third down catches. Completely incidental to the main stat which is getting the team down the field.

Is a 9 yard catch on first and ten to get you to 2nd and 1 less important than a 2 yard catch on 3rd and 1? Of course not, only a fool would argue as much. How about a 45 yard catch that gets you from your own 35 to the other team's 20? Is that less important than a 2 yard catch that happens to get you across the goalline? Of course not, the 45 yard catch is much, much more important. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

This would be like arguing that a person is making more critical shots in basketball because his shot happens to take you from a one point deficit to being up one The other guy on the team made the other 37 points to get you back in it from being down 20, then this guy comes in and makes a bucket to pull you into the lead. so, his two points are more important because of some incidental stat.

All of the yards on a football field are of equal importance.
In the end, like in baseball, scoring is the biggest thing in the game. You don't score, you don't win.
What good is a catch for 40 yards, when you drop the 2 yard potential TD pass or can't get open in the red zone because you just don't have good body strength or whatever?
You are basically saying exactly why Andre Johnson shouldn't get in, he can't score. Fitzgerald could score, he could run those fades and catch them. Andre apparently can't. Not a knack on Andre, but I really don't see the Texans looking at him in the red zone much. Why is that?

Touchdowns, touchdowns, touchdowns. Football isn't like baseball where you can fine tune it to statistics. The Texans have found ways to get the ball into the hands of Andre Johnson, but he just hasn't scored as much as his peers, so I don't see how you can say he should be in when we have such a boatload of talent at WR not in right now.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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You guys talking about touchdowns are killing me. That's like the guys back in the day that used to care about RBI for baseball, until we all evolved to understand that particular stat had more to do with the players surrounding you than your own talent.

What do you think Andre is catching a bunch of balls and falling down at the 10 yard line on his own because he is allergic to the endzone? Do you want to give Mike Tolbert some extra credit over a guy like Jamaal Charles back in 2010, because Tolbert went for 700 yards and 11 td's while Jamaal went for 1400 yards and 5 td's.

It is a silly argument to make to look at how many touchdowns a receiver has. For all we know the Texans scored half as many points as other teams around the league because they had no running game and no pass protection. Andre has never caught a fade pattern from the 2 for a td. Take away half of Fitzgerald's td's for that alone. Does it really matter if the Texans run it in with Foster from the 1 yard line or give Andre a cheap td?

Again, silly and not a very mature football argument to make when you bring in touchdowns. Too many other factors at play that determine that stat. Unless Andre gets a td of more than 20 yards, he is not going to get the ball in the red zone. That's just not the types of plays the Texans run.

Stick only to the stats that the receiver can control. Andre became the third player in history to have three seasons of at least 100 catches and 1,500 yards this year. Andre was the dominant receiver in the game, when healthy, for a three year stretch. That is what the Hall of Fame is about, not some random stat that has nothing to do with anything as it pertains to the game of football, such as who gets the 1 yard td, a handoff to Foster or Johnson, it's meaningless.
Well it is what it is. Receivers can't control a lot of things. However that is how it goes in team sports. The Hall of Fame represents individual achievement within an activity with so many variables involved. There are a lot of guys who probably would have had better numbers/worse numbers if they played on a certain team at a certain point in history for the majority of their career.

Johnson's lack of double digit touchdowns are going to hurt him unfortunately as far as the Hall of Fame is concerned. He's played with Schaub for a good amount of time during his career and the offenses he has been in have usually been fairly good for the majority of his tenure in Houston except for the first three or four years when David Carr was around. Could have to do with the offense not giving him many opportunities towards the goal line. Like it or not though, his lack of touchdowns will stick out if things keep going at this pace. I think he can overcome it and assuming he stays healthy (which I have doubts about) for the next few years and put out this production combined with a couple of dominant playoff performances and a Super Bowl ring...then maybe he has a shot. Maybe.

Andre Johnson is my favorite receiver in the NFL other than Marques Colston. I hope things work out for him.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Sorry guys.

I understand you are just thinking conventionally here, because this is what you have been told your whole life.

You need to step back and look at what you are saying.

If you think the final yard for a td is the most important then Mike Tolbert is one of the best running backs in the league. Green-Ellis last year had 660 yards rushing and 11 td's. You telling me that was a better year than Jones-Drew who had 1600 yards and only 8 td's? The points are most important right? Green-Ellis was better then? You guys are thinking fantasy foootball too much, and not real life. In real life, any yard you get on the field is the same as any other yard you get. If you get from the 30 to the 29, it's the same yard as if you get from the 1 to the end zone. Who gets which yard is completely incidental.

If you want to bring td's into the equation then you are going to have to bring in some evidence of 30-40 passes that Andre dropped that were surefire td's. Otherwise, it is completely incidental that someone else happened to move the Texans those last five yards for the td.

If we go by this forum, then the 21 most important players in the league are all kickers. Arian Foster is the leading scorer in the league that is not a kicker, but he is 22nd overall. Gostkowski is actually much more important than Adrian Peterson this year if we go by these rules.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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There's no spin on this that's positive for Andre Johnson. You can't be considered an elite NFL WR who's regarded as a future HOF candidate and NOT score TDs.
THat's just how it goes.

There may be extenuating circumstances that smooth over this discrepancy for Johnson, but once he retires and his stats are put up against other WRs in contention for Canton, Andre Johnson's inability to score TDs is going to stand out like a red flag.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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I think people are being a little harsh here. He's had 3 seasons of 8 TDs and one season of 9. He compares pretty favorably to Michael Irvin in that regard (obviously, Irvin has the big bonus of the 3 rings and everything).

Johnson isn't there yet, but he could certainly get there.

And it's funny how this criticism never comes up for Wes Welker...

or even Torry Holt.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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One yard is not one yard. People do overvalue TD at times. However, getting one yard is much more difficult at the goal line. It requires a more particular skill-set from a WR, from a RB, from a QB. You are working in tight quarters where the defense can concentrate on a smaller area.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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I think people are being a little harsh here. He's had 3 seasons of 8 TDs and one season of 9. He compares pretty favorably to Michael Irvin in that regard (obviously, Irvin has the big bonus of the 3 rings and everything).

Johnson isn't there yet, but he could certainly get there.

And it's funny how this criticism never comes up for Wes Welker...

or even Torry Holt.
Welker has a whole thread criticizing ever essence of his being on this site that you have contributed heavily to.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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We're all ignorant and Andre gets in on his ever high preseason hype. No results needed. Thread.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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Andre Johnson has dropped enough sure thing TDs as any elite player I have ever seen. Everyone should be saying yes to this thread. And they should be saying it emphatically. But, for whatever reason, Andre Johnson just can't score. And it is killing his Hall of Fame credentials. He has been, for the most part, one of the five best WRs in football. And almost on a consistent basis. Me personally? I have never put him in the same class as Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald has become a victim of circumstance. Andre Johnson should have scored 10-16 TDs on a yearly basis for the last 5 or 6 years. He's not a victim of circumstance. He's been apart of bad offenses, but they were still able to force feed Johnson the ball.

Hines Ward would have had 100 career TDs if it wasn't for that damn Jerome Bettis taking away all his short yardage red zone opportunities.

But this thread is premature. Johnson could win back-to-back Super Bowls and have legendary moments in those playoffs / Super Bowls. He could score 40 TDs over the next 3 seasons. Or he could get slower and see massive drop off in production. He could become a high profile #2. He could break his leg and never recover. All examples would make this discussions moot. He needs to do more. A lot more. Scoring TDs. That's one of them.

And people don't need to compare him to other players in the Hall of Fame. Leave Michael Irvin and Lynn Swann out of it. Different eras and circumstances. They have their own debates. But I've posted it before on this site about Michael Irvin. He had numerous seasons where he caught nearly, or more than, 50% of Aikman's TDs passes on a yearly basis. And I think Aikman only threw 20+ TD passes once in his career. ONCE!!! Johnson isn't playing with a QB only throwing 13 to 20 TD passes a season... where he's STILL catching 7-9 TD passes a season. To catch 8 TDs of a QBs 17 passing TDs is impressive. But when your QB is throwing 24 or 29 and you are catching 8 or 9 TDs, then it becomes less impressive. 8 is a sold number, but it's numbers like that have hurt players like Vincent Jackson, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith or Chad Johnson.

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Maybe. But at the same time Bo Jackson isn't in. And Terrell Davis probably won't make it either.

Definitely don't think he would be first ballot if he didn't play another down. Could get in though.
Why would Bo Jackson be in the Hall of Fame? His pro career wasn't impressive, or even close to Hall of Fame standards. Not even for a single season. Did he ever rush for 1,000 yards in a single season? Speaking of double digit TDs... Did he ever do it? He had commercials and was a ridiculous athlete, but he wasn't dedicated to football to become great. I don't know if he ever played a full season.

If Adrian Peterson had a career ending injury, then his Hall of Fame chances shouldn't make any difference. Peterson is and has been one of the 10 best players in all of football since his rookie season. He just had an MVP season (that will be given to a QB because its a QB driven award). An injury would only hurt his status to become legendary. Which he is on pace to become. If something happened to him where he couldn't play anymore then I don't know how you even consider another RB of his era when Peterson is one of the greatest RB to ever play. He's proven that.

I'm not even going to get started on Terrell Davis, who did more in four years than most players do in ten.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Why would Bo Jackson be in the Hall of Fame? His pro career wasn't impressive, or even close to Hall of Fame standards. Not even for a single season. Did he ever rush for 1,000 yards in a single season? Speaking of double digit TDs... Did he ever do it? He had commercials and was a ridiculous athlete, but he wasn't dedicated to football to become great. I don't know if he ever played a full season.

If Adrian Peterson had a career ending injury, then his Hall of Fame chances shouldn't make any difference. Peterson is and has been one of the 10 best players in all of football since his rookie season. He just had an MVP season (that will be given to a QB because its a QB driven award). An injury would only hurt his status to become legendary. Which he is on pace to become. If something happened to him where he couldn't play anymore then I don't know how you even consider another RB of his era when Peterson is one of the greatest RB to ever play. He's proven that.

I'm not even going to get started on Terrell Davis, who did more in four years than most players do in ten.
I'm talking about the "freak of nature" argument. Bo Jackson was that, but of course his career was cut short. If Peterson never played another down again, I don't know about his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame. I would say that he has the best shot of someone who didn't have a complete resume. Of course, I thought the same for Sterling Sharpe in his seven years. It would be interesting to see in that scenario given a few years. Right away, people would probably say yes he's a lock for the Hall of Fame if he never played another down. However, I think if 5 years passed people wouldn't be so sure and he might not be first ballot at least. It doesn't really matter too much, because I'm assuming that he does play for quite a few more years cementing his status as a Hall of Famer.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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I'm talking about the "freak of nature" argument. Bo Jackson was that, but of course his career was cut short. If Peterson never played another down again, I don't know about his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame. I would say that he has the best shot of someone who didn't have a complete resume. Of course, I thought the same for Sterling Sharpe in his seven years. It would be interesting to see in that scenario given a few years.
Well put, again.
I believe guys should be able to make the Hall of Fame for just a few, 4, 5, 6 years of truely "greatness".

I saw some of those "great" players play, and I personally think they were "better" than some guys with sustained levels of "goodness" who racked up many many seasons of nice numbers, good.... but never even close to being an MVP of a year, or never passing the eye test as "great", never racking up any all-time great seasons, etc.

You bring up a good point about Sterling Sharpe. You're a 49er fan...
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Sorry guys.

Green-Ellis last year had 660 yards rushing and 11 td's. You telling me that was a better year than Jones-Drew who had 1600 yards and only 8 td's? The points are most important right? Green-Ellis was better then? You guys are thinking fantasy foootball too much, and not real life.
You had us right there ^
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:18 AM    (permalink
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Johnson would basically have to have the 3 best seasons of his career over the next 3 years if he was to become a genuine candidate to me.

He just doesn't tick any of the boxes for mine. His stats are "pedestrian", I don't know if he has ever been the best player at his position in the league and if he has it was for so little time that if you blinked you missed it and I can see a genuine case he was never in the 3 best at his position. His team has been consistently bad regardless of what he does.

I love AJ as a player but I just can't make any case for him as a HOF player except he seems to be a genuinely nice guy and that I like him and that doesn't make someone a HOF candidate.

As I said though, he could yet produce his best years over the next couple and all of a sudden his pedestrian stats are starting to be pretty damn strong criteria. Say he hits 90 receptions, 1400 yards and 10 TDs for the next 3 years and he would have the stats to back him up, especially if he did another couple of 65, 900 and 5 seasons after that. If he could go for another 5 years and retire at say 36 with those extra numbers his case becomes a lot stronger. For the first time he has a team around him you could say that none of those numbers are unreasonably possible.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Johnson would basically have to have the 3 best seasons of his career over the next 3 years if he was to become a genuine candidate to me.

He just doesn't tick any of the boxes for mine. His stats are "pedestrian", I don't know if he has ever been the best player at his position in the league and if he has it was for so little time that if you blinked you missed it and I can see a genuine case he was never in the 3 best at his position. His team has been consistently bad regardless of what he does.

I love AJ as a player but I just can't make any case for him as a HOF player except he seems to be a genuinely nice guy and that I like him and that doesn't make someone a HOF candidate.

As I said though, he could yet produce his best years over the next couple and all of a sudden his pedestrian stats are starting to be pretty damn strong criteria. Say he hits 90 receptions, 1400 yards and 10 TDs for the next 3 years and he would have the stats to back him up, especially if he did another couple of 65, 900 and 5 seasons after that. If he could go for another 5 years and retire at say 36 with those extra numbers his case becomes a lot stronger. For the first time he has a team around him you could say that none of those numbers are unreasonably possible.
His stats are pedestrian?

Are we even talking about the same player here?

90-1400-10? He's had 1500+ 3 times in his career.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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Sorry guys.

I understand you are just thinking conventionally here, because this is what you have been told your whole life.

You need to step back and look at what you are saying.

If you think the final yard for a td is the most important then Mike Tolbert is one of the best running backs in the league. Green-Ellis last year had 660 yards rushing and 11 td's. You telling me that was a better year than Jones-Drew who had 1600 yards and only 8 td's? The points are most important right? Green-Ellis was better then? You guys are thinking fantasy foootball too much, and not real life. In real life, any yard you get on the field is the same as any other yard you get. If you get from the 30 to the 29, it's the same yard as if you get from the 1 to the end zone. Who gets which yard is completely incidental.

If you want to bring td's into the equation then you are going to have to bring in some evidence of 30-40 passes that Andre dropped that were surefire td's. Otherwise, it is completely incidental that someone else happened to move the Texans those last five yards for the td.

If we go by this forum, then the 21 most important players in the league are all kickers. Arian Foster is the leading scorer in the league that is not a kicker, but he is 22nd overall. Gostkowski is actually much more important than Adrian Peterson this year if we go by these rules.
Its not just about one thing, TD's/scoring, its about putting it all together.
For WR's, it comes down to receptions, yardage, YPC and TD's.
Unless he blows up in TD's, he will be lacking in that category compared to everybody else.
His final career stats will be a mix of probably Marvin Harrison for receptions, Isaac Bruce for yards and Andre Reed for TD's.

Now, is the point of football not to score a touchdown? If you don't get into the end zone, you won't win games. Period. It might not be all of Andre's fault he didn't get into the end zone a lot in his career, but you have guys with less experience in the league at or surpassing his TD total(Fitzgerald and Roddy White) putting up similar stats. Not all these WR's can get into the HOF.
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