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Old 12-28-2012, 10:44 AM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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Originally Posted by prock View Post
When the Pats havent really ever had a run game til this year and used short passes as heir run game. Find holes in the zone and try and fight for a few extra. Its baffling how you can't grasp this. Players have different skill sets and are placed into roles that best accomodate their skill sets. Rocket surgery, it is. But if you havent been convinced of logic by this point in this thread then I can't say anything to persuade the unpersuadable.
I think if I see the term, "skill set," one more time, I'm going on a shooting rampage.

Every single player in the NFL has a "skilllll seeettttt." That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a player is a product of a system.

If someone does an adequate job flipping burgers, I'm not going to go, "OMG, X is such a great burger flipper. I can't hold it against him that Burger King takes advantage of his SKILL SET. Let's give him a National Employee of the Month award and a Nobel Prize."

You know why? Because every able-bodied person can flip burgers.

And then there's the fact that the Dolphins used him the same way. But what happened there?

The number 3 receiver actually put up numbers you'd expect from a #3 receiver. Imagine that. Without spreading the field and emphasizing the underneath game like no team ever has, Welker wasn't catching 98489234 passes per season.

That's the difference between the 2006 Dolphins and the 2007-present Patriots. The 2006 Dolphins ran a basic NFL offense and weren't interested in throwing 80 screens and drags per year to their scrappy, little receiver.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
The 2006 Dolphins ran a basic NFL offense and weren't interested in throwing 80 screens and drags per year to their scrappy, little receiver.
The only place this is true is in your head. Yes the Patriots throw a bunch of underneath routes to Welker, but there are far more route combinations than simply running screens and drags 60% of the time. You don't know the Patriots offense so stop pretending like you do. Also, maybe the 2006 Dolphins should have run more underneath stuff to Welker. I mean unless they didn't want to mess with their dynamite formula that led to 16.2 points per game.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Blown coverage. Just look at that play - complete miscommunication in the secondary and he was uncovered down the field.



Who are we talking about now? That was a blown coverage, plain and simple. Nobody even picked Welker up running that route.
I was mistaken it was actually Nate Allen, and it was a blown coverage because he bit on the double move. Welker looks as though he is breaking towards the middle of the field and the safety takes 2 false steps and by that stage Welker is 5 or 10 yards past him. Poor play by the safety but all set up by Welker's route
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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The only place this is true is in your head. Yes the Patriots throw a bunch of underneath routes to Welker, but there are far more route combinations than simply running screens and drags 60% of the time. You don't know the Patriots offense so stop pretending like you do. Also, maybe the 2006 Dolphins should have run more underneath stuff to Welker. I mean unless they didn't want to mess with their dynamite formula that led to 16.2 points per game.
When he starts comparing what Welker does in the Patriots offense to what any able bodied person in the world can do in flipping burgers... you know it's time to walk away. Jordan brings with him a whole different level of arrogance and ignorance. It really is a lethal combination that sucks people in and leads to long, drawn out, meaningless arguments such as this one.

It is a "copycat league", so I'm told. Pretty amazing how 31 other NFL teams haven't figured out they can just throw screen passes to any chump in the slot and boom! they'd instantly turn into an offensive juggernaut like the Patriots.

It's so simple...
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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If anybody could do it, then every team would have a Welker.

I'd love for Flacco have a consistent 1st down machine. Welker is a great cog in a Brady machine, but there aren't many cogs like him.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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I dont disagree with the acrobatic catch statement, but his pure RAC ability is false...

Demaryius Thomas, Brandon Marshall, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, Percy Havin.. all i would say are easily better at RAC/YAC
Thomas plays with Peyton Manning. **** out of here with that ****. And I'm a Thomas fan, but get real here. Two you forgot were Dez Bryant and Miles Austin, so I was actually a tad generous with top 5. Top 10 however, yes.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:15 AM    (permalink
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Thomas plays with Peyton Manning. **** out of here with that ****. And I'm a Thomas fan, but get real here. Two you forgot were Dez Bryant and Miles Austin, so I was actually a tad generous with top 5. Top 10 however, yes.
oh no it's you again!!!!!!
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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oh no it's you again!!!!!!
That looks cute. Did you come up with all that during color time after the nap?
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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The only place this is true is in your head. Yes the Patriots throw a bunch of underneath routes to Welker, but there are far more route combinations than simply running screens and drags 60% of the time. You don't know the Patriots offense so stop pretending like you do. Also, maybe the 2006 Dolphins should have run more underneath stuff to Welker. I mean unless they didn't want to mess with their dynamite formula that led to 16.2 points per game.
You just sort of proved our point. If Welker was such a valuable asset, why was he a middling scrub receiver in Miami in a horrible offense? Then he goes to NE, who has had a scheme edge since Belichick took over, and he's an all pro receiver.

You've seen Calvin Johnson produce on bad teams. You've seen many other of the truly elite receivers do it. Why couldn't Welker?
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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You just sort of proved our point. If Welker was such a valuable asset, why was he a middling scrub receiver in Miami in a horrible offense? Then he goes to NE, who has had a scheme edge since Belichick took over, and he's an all pro receiver.

You've seen Calvin Johnson produce on bad teams. You've seen many other of the truly elite receivers do it. Why couldn't Welker?
He was the best player on the Dolphins offense. Do you remember those Dolphins teams? Culppepper, Harrington, Cleo Lemon, Frerotte and Rosenfels were the QBs in 2005/2006. He produced in Miami with these guys throwing him the ball.

The fact is that when NE played Miami Welker was a guy that both Brady and Bellicheck identified as a playmaker which is why they went after him.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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Welker catching screenzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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He was the best player on the Dolphins offense. Do you remember those Dolphins teams? Culppepper, Harrington, Cleo Lemon, Frerotte and Rosenfels were the QBs in 2005/2006. He produced in Miami with these guys throwing him the ball.

The fact is that when NE played Miami Welker was a guy that both Brady and Bellicheck identified as a playmaker which is why they went after him.
Playmakers don't average 10 yards per catch and produce low TD seasons. Let's get real here dude. Even Welker's biggest fan wouldn't identify him as a "playmaker".

He sucked in Miami with average/suck QB'ing and a basic NFL system. He goes to NE and plays with the best QB to ever walk earth, plays in an offense that throws it as much as anyone and gets favorable matchups most of the time due to scheme. What are you not getting?
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Playmakers don't average 10 yards per catch and produce low TD seasons. Let's get real here dude. Even Welker's biggest fan wouldn't identify him as a "playmaker".

He sucked in Miami with average/suck QB'ing and a basic NFL system. He goes to NE and plays with the best QB to ever walk earth, plays in an offense that throws it as much as anyone and gets favorable matchups most of the time due to scheme. What are you not getting?
He moves the chains, he makes plays. Just because you like to FAP to Calvin Johnson doesn't mean Wes Welker sucks. You just have some sort of weird thing against Welker.

What are you not getting? Do you think any WR could catch 100+ balls a season in that offense? Do you have any appreciation for the hand eye coordination/concentration and discipline Welker has? Just go away.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by farfromforgotten View Post
When he starts comparing what Welker does in the Patriots offense to what any able bodied person in the world can do in flipping burgers... you know it's time to walk away. Jordan brings with him a whole different level of arrogance and ignorance. It really is a lethal combination that sucks people in and leads to long, drawn out, meaningless arguments such as this one.
No, it's time to walk away when your opponent doesn't understand how analogies work. I've encountered a million people on the internet who are just like you in that regard.

If you use an analogy to show why an argument that something is morally justifiable is a poor one by pointing out that that same argument is what Nazi sympathizers use, they go, "ARE YOU COMPARING X to HITLER?!?!111"

The point I was making is that the "skill set" argument is a bad argument. Everyone has skills. Everyone in football has football skills. It's how difficult they are to perform that determine how good a player they are. And what Welker does is easy for nearly all receivers to play professional-level football.


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It is a "copycat league", so I'm told. Pretty amazing how 31 other NFL teams haven't figured out they can just throw screen passes to any chump in the slot and boom! they'd instantly turn into an offensive juggernaut like the Patriots.
Do you read anything? At all? I am not going to explain this for the 98349834th time. Figure it out for yourself.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I was mistaken it was actually Nate Allen, and it was a blown coverage because he bit on the double move. Welker looks as though he is breaking towards the middle of the field and the safety takes 2 false steps and by that stage Welker is 5 or 10 yards past him. Poor play by the safety but all set up by Welker's route
He didn't bite on Welker, he was reading Brady - he was in zone, not man on Welker. He never even looks at Welker until he's already by him.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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He was the best player on the Dolphins offense. Do you remember those Dolphins teams? Culppepper, Harrington, Cleo Lemon, Frerotte and Rosenfels were the QBs in 2005/2006. He produced in Miami with these guys throwing him the ball.

The fact is that when NE played Miami Welker was a guy that both Brady and Bellicheck identified as a playmaker which is why they went after him.
Funny, but Welker's production in 2006 was awfully similar to Marty Booker, Chris Chambers, and Randy McMichael.

Welker: 67-687-1
Chambers: 59-677-4
Booker: 55-747-6
McMichael: 62-640-3

One would think the "best player on the Dolphins' offense" would easily outshine players like that. Instead, he trails Booker in yardage and all 3 of those guys in touchdowns (and Booker missed 2 games, to boot).
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Eh, you're not even being funny, let's move onto talking about how much better Brady is than Joe Montana was, like your alter ego brought up in the GDT.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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Eh, you're not even being funny, let's move onto talking about how much better Brady is than Joe Montana was, like your alter ego brought up in the GDT.
*By far better.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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*By far better.
Yes, yes, but is he night and day better?
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Yes, yes, but is he night and day better?
Idk about night and day better, but certainly better and more productive.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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If anybody could do it, then every team would have a Welker.
And this again....

People need to start reading the thread before replying.

I can't believe the arrogance of the Welker supporters in this thread to think every team wants a freak'n Wes Welker.

Like the Lions are sitting around going, "we don't want Calvin Johnson. We want Wes Welker instead to pump balls into."

The 2006 Miami Dolphins had a Wes Welker. Literally. And look what happened there. They didn't have a 2007-2012 "Wes Welker." Why is that, do you suppose?
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss did prove once and for all that having a Welker means you can't also have a stud #1 on the outside...
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
Idk about night and day better, but certainly better and more productive.
I don't like posting things as simple as duh, but duh. Montana doesn't even look like Brady!
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:07 PM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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What are you not getting? Do you think any WR could catch 100+ balls a season in that offense?
Yes, actually, we do. Well, I can only speak for myself, and I certainly do.

Troy Brown did it.

This is one of the problems at the heart of the inflating of Welker's talent - the idea that quantity of receptions is a meaningful stat. It isn't. It is utterly meaningless. Any receiver could catch 200 passes per season if a team force fed him the ball. It's what a receiver does with the receptions that is important. Nobody is arguing for Welker's legitimacy with yardage, big play ability, or touchdowns.

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Do you have any appreciation for the hand eye coordination/concentration and discipline Welker has? Just go away.
Hand-eye coordination? From a receiver with lousy hands for a receiver, lacking the ability to catch balls away from his frame and having to body catch nearly everything?

Discipline? Intangible alert, Intangible Alert! When you have no argument for what an athlete actually does well, resort to inventing invisible qualities to justify the defense and to use as an argument against the possibility that he's really not that good a player, but rather a product of the system.

What is this "discipline" you are claiming he possesses? He doesn't ignore the play calling and does what he's supposed to do? Wow, put him in Canton, now.

Last edited by JordanTaber : 12-30-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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And this again....

People need to start reading the thread before replying.

I can't believe the arrogance of the Welker supporters in this thread to think every team wants a freak'n Wes Welker.

Like the Lions are sitting around going, "we don't want Calvin Johnson. We want Wes Welker instead to pump balls into."

The 2006 Miami Dolphins had a Wes Welker. Literally. And look what happened there. They didn't have a 2007-2012 "Wes Welker." Why is that, do you suppose?
Like the Patriots are sitting around going, "oh dear we are stuck with Wes Welker again. Whatever shall we do? We want a Megatron too! No fair!"

Poor Patriots. When will they ever listen to you and cut ties with this mediocre player!?!?
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