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Old 01-03-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
Robcards
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Ummmm Josh Gordon, Phil Taylor, TJ Ward, Jabaal Sheard, and Mitchell Schwartz. Trent Richardson looked decent considering the blocking and his injury. Just drafting Joe Haden gives him better draft picks than Tannebaum over the last 4 seasons.
Wilkerson 25th or whatever > Haden 7th. Any draftnik could make a good pick in the top 10 as long as its not a reach. All of the names you mentioned were 1st or 2nd rounders. Sheard hasn't been great, Taylor hasn't been healthy, trich hasn't been as good as the other backs in the draft class so he's not exactly a name I'd brag about picking.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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Wait, what? Richardson is amazing.
Compared to the other full time starting RBs he's the worst and he was taken 3rd after a trade up. How is that being an amazing GM? Alfred Morris and Doug Martin did better
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Wilkerson 25th or whatever > Haden 7th. Any draftnik could make a good pick in the top 10 as long as its not a reach. All of the names you mentioned were 1st or 2nd rounders. Sheard hasn't been great, Taylor hasn't been healthy, trich hasn't been as good as the other backs in the draft class so he's not exactly a name I'd brag about picking.
Wilkerson is an almost pro bowl caliber DE. Haden is the 2nd best CB in football, there is no comparison there regardless of where the 2 were picked in the first round. If picking top 10 was so easy then why did Tannebaum blow both of his picks in the top 10 during his career as the Jets GM? The Jets organization has been awful in there past 4 drafts and there is no way around that. You can try and downplay all the Browns picks you want, but there is no way to argue that Tannebaum was an equivalent drafter or roster manager to Heckert over the past few years.

T-Rich was solid all year. The Browns interior blocking wan't great and Richardson was injured, but he carried that team with a bunch of carries and was a solid receiver out of the backfield. Morris had Shannahan/RG3 and Doug Martin was very hot/cold as a runner. T-Rich is a good back who is helping develop an offense that was pitifully bad in 2011. Also there is a distinct difference from running against Baltimore, Pittsburg, and Cinncinnati 6 times a year vs. playing in other divisions. I still believe that Richardson is the best back out of the 3, and once he gets a bit more help he may emerge. Considering that contracts are no longer outrageous for top picks picking a RB top 3 can be justified.

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Old 01-03-2013, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Wilkerson is an almost pro bowl caliber DE. Haden is the 2nd best CB in football, there is no comparison there regardless of where the 2 were picked in the first round. If picking top 10 was so easy then why did Tannebaum blow both of his picks in the top 10 during his career as the Jets GM? The Jets organization has been awful in there past 4 drafts and there is no way around that. You can try and downplay all the Browns picks you want, but there is no way to argue that Tannebaum was an equivalent drafter or roster manager to Heckert over the past few years.

T-Rich was solid all year. The Browns interior blocking wan't great and Richardson was injured, but he carried that team with a bunch of carries and was a solid receiver out of the backfield. Morris had Shannahan/RG3 and Doug Martin was very hot/cold as a runner. T-Rich is a good back who is helping develop an offense that was pitifully bad in 2011. Also there is a distinct difference from running against Baltimore, Pittsburg, and Cinncinnati 6 times a year vs. playing in other divisions. I still believe that Richardson is the best back out of the 3, and once he gets a bit more help he may emerge. Considering that contracts are no longer outrageous for top picks picking a RB top 3 can be justified.
According to pro football focus, Wilkerson graded out as the 2nd best 3-4 DE behind J.J. Watt this year. I'll put 200 times more stock in that than silly pro bowl voting.

Haden the 2nd best CB in football? I almost fell of my chair. Off the top of my head Revis, Cromartie, Bailey, Carr, Peterson, Sherman, Browner, Taylor, Rogers, Finnegan, and Jenkins are all corners I wouldn't want my WRs playing against rather than Haden. Haden is good, he isn't even close to 2nd best corner in the game give me a break.

It's all a moot point anyway as it seems we dodged a bullet as speculation is that Reid will bring this clown from Cleveland to KC. Let's goooo Tom Gamble!

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Old 01-03-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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According to pro football focus, Wilkerson graded out as the 2nd best 3-4 DE behind J.J. Watt this year. I'll put 200 times more stock in that than silly pro bowl voting.

Haden the 2nd best CB in football? I almost fell of my chair. Off the top of my head Revis, Cromartie, Bailey, Carr, Peterson, Sherman, Browner, Taylor, Rogers, Finnegan, and Jenkins are all corners I wouldn't want my WRs playing against rather than Haden. Haden is good, he isn't even close to 2nd best corner in the game give me a break.

It's all a moot point anyway as it seems we dodged a bullet as speculation is that Reid will bring this clown from Cleveland to KC. Let's goooo Tom Gamble!
Man I wouldn't want you evaluating CB's then. I forgot about Sherman, so I'll give you that one and Cro played better this year than Haden did, but Rogers, Finnegan, Jenkins, Taylor, Browner, Bailey, and Carr

Also, Wilkerson is getting massively overrated in Jets circles. I'm excited for the fans that they finally got a good draft pick, but his impact is nowhere near comparable to the top peers at his position, and Haden is a much better player on the field than him.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:02 PM    (permalink
Thecollegedropout
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Mo Wilk is good but I don't know if he's a touch away from the Pro Bowl.....he is massively underrated though because he was in the same draft class as Aldon Smith, Von Miller, JJ Watt, Ryan Kerrigan etc.

That I think we can all agree upon.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Mo Wilk is good but I don't know if he's a touch away from the Pro Bowl.....he is massively underrated though because he was in the same draft class as Aldon Smith, Von Miller, JJ Watt, Ryan Kerrigan etc.

That I think we can all agree upon.
I think he's underrated in league circles, but certainly not in Jets circles.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Man I wouldn't want you evaluating CB's then. I forgot about Sherman, so I'll give you that one and Cro played better this year than Haden did, but Rogers, Finnegan, Jenkins, Taylor, Browner, Bailey, and Carr

Also, Wilkerson is getting massively overrated in Jets circles. I'm excited for the fans that they finally got a good draft pick, but his impact is nowhere near comparable to the top peers at his position, and Haden is a much better player on the field than him.
Regardless of which corners you think are better or worse than Haden, my point is he definitely isn't the 2nd best corner in the league.

No where near comparable to his peers? Who? Aside from JJ Watt who is so much more impactful as a 3-4 DE than Wilkerson? I'd put him right up there with Calais Campbell, Justin smith, ngata this season, etc
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Regardless of which corners you think are better or worse than Haden, my point is he definitely isn't the 2nd best corner in the league.

No where near comparable to his peers? Who? Aside from JJ Watt who is so much more impactful as a 3-4 DE than Wilkerson? I'd put him right up there with Calais Campbell, Justin smith, ngata this season, etc
Fair enough on the Haden thing. I forgot about Sherman and there are a few guys who had a better year than him this year. He was the 2nd best last season, but I think injuries and his suspension set him back a bit this season. He was still elite though. A lot better than most of the guys you listed a couple of whom aren't that good anymore (Taylor and Rodgers) or aren't great cover guys yet (Peterson and Jenkins).

I think presently Wilkerson is in that Keisel, Seymour, and A. Smith type tier. I don't think he's as consistently disruptive as the other guys you listed especially Campbell, nor does he receive the type of consistent attention those guys do either. He might start soon though, and it'll be interesting to see how he responds. Also, there are a score of 4-3 DT's who are better as well like Wilfork, Atkins, Melton, and McCoy.

Either way Haden>Wilkerson.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Either way Haden>Wilkerson.
Again, you're comparing a 7th pick and a 25th pick. If the Jets had picked 7th we would've had JJ Watt. Phil Taylor is the guy you should be comparing to Wilkerson as Cleveland traded up to the pick before the Jets to get him and we got Wilkerson right after.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Compared to the other full time starting RBs he's the worst and he was taken 3rd after a trade up. How is that being an amazing GM? Alfred Morris and Doug Martin did better
You're not really going to base this on statistics after one year, are you? Supporting cast also has a lot to do with it, and just because you're not the absolute best pick (though I would still take him over the other two) doesn't mean you were a bad one. Plus, again, it's only been one season. It's far too early to tell who is the best.

I don't know why you guys are talking about the CBs either. It's one of the more mercurial positions out there on a year-to-year basis. Unless you're Darrelle Revis, there isn't a whole lot of consistency as that's heavily based on the surrounding talent. What are people basing their evaluations off of? Interceptions? It's kind of like trying to figure out the best, well, 3-4 DEs (minus JJ Watt).
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Again, you're comparing a 7th pick and a 25th pick. If the Jets had picked 7th we would've had JJ Watt. Phil Taylor is the guy you should be comparing to Wilkerson as Cleveland traded up to the pick before the Jets to get him and we got Wilkerson right after.
Well Phil Taylor missed half the season this year so a full on comparison isn't really fair. Also, it's a pretty big stretch to say that you would have had JJ Watt considering Haden and Watt weren't in the same draft class :p. Taylor was better than Wilkerson year 1 though. Still it doesn't mitigate the fact that Wilkerson is the ONLY great pick in 4 drafts. Coples and Kerley have been ok, but other than that it's been extremely poor.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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When was the last time we had an offensive-minded HC? Maybe that's what we need.

Also, now with this picture making its way around of Rex, I feel like we're getting closer to a change. I think Mr. Johnson is going to blame it on finding the right GM fit. Maybe not though, depending on how long it takes to get a GM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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When was the last time we had an offensive-minded HC? Maybe that's what we need.

Also, now with this picture making its way around of Rex, I feel like we're getting closer to a change. I think Mr. Johnson is going to blame it on finding the right GM fit. Maybe not though, depending on how long it takes to get a GM.
Who gives a crap about the picture? Sanchez was Rex's first pick as a head coach, it should have enough sentimental value for a tattoo, why not? I don't see the big deal at all.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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Think it's a bigger deal because he stubbornly stuck with Sanchez when it was really clear he was hurting the team. On the other hand maybe there wasn't a better option on the team, but when a guy is killing you like he was they should have rolled the dice on one of the backups earlier. Gives the indication that he might get overly attached to guys and not make decisions that are in the best interest of the team. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's why it could be viewed as an issue IMO.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:01 AM    (permalink
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I don't necessarily think it's a big deal that Sanchez's number is on this permanent branding, but I just think that he's become the laughing stock of the league and through his co-leadership, the Jets sort of have as well. He's a great defensive coach and excellent people person, but he's lost his grasp of the position. Not everyone can deal with the New York spotlight, and there's really no shame in that. But now it might be time to move on. Plus, Woody Johnson, knowing very little about football and everything that encompasses a team sport, is heavily influenced by public perception, so as the media starts to talk worse and worse about Rex, I think he'll make the change.

In related news, Heckert cancelled his meeting with the Jets, much to the delight of some Jets fans (though it might seem troubling that he was the one that cancelled, not the other way around). Maybe he's going to the Chiefs.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:23 AM    (permalink
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In related news, Heckert cancelled his meeting with the Jets, much to the delight of some Jets fans (though it might seem troubling that he was the one that cancelled, not the other way around). Maybe he's going to the Chiefs.
Very delighted! I can't believe people are saying he made good draft picks in Cleveland. Seriously no hits on any prospects after the 2nd round. Even Tannenbaum got Kerley, with bilal Powell and Kendrick Ellis showing some promise.

Also it's assumed he cancelled because he is getting hired by KC. And it seems Tom Gamble has emerged as the favorite to take over in NY, so I'm pretty happy about that.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Not that I think Heckert was the right guy for the job, but the Browns definitely hit on some guys outside round 1. Sheard is one example, and Josh Gordon looks like he has a nice future.

Plus if we're going by draft picks, the Niners took AJ Jenkins in the first last year. That pick looked bad at the time and if anything looks even worse after the season.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:27 AM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Originally Posted by derza222 View Post
Not that I think Heckert was the right guy for the job, but the Browns definitely hit on some guys outside round 1. Sheard is one example, and Josh Gordon looks like he has a nice future.

Plus if we're going by draft picks, the Niners took AJ Jenkins in the first last year. That pick looked bad at the time and if anything looks even worse after the season.
There are a handful of guys they drafted in the later rounds who start that aren't amazing, and certain guys like Winn, Hughes, and Benjamin look like they have promising futures. I think like any team the Browns have had mixed results past round 2, but I think that team is substantially better now than when Heckert took over.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
derza222
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Yeah agreed, they definitely are set up relatively well moving forward. Will be interesting to see if Chip takes that job. If not I'd love to see him in NY next season if Rex falls flat on his face.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
YotoJets007
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There are a handful of guys they drafted in the later rounds who start that aren't amazing, and certain guys like Winn, Hughes, and Benjamin look like they have promising futures. I think like any team the Browns have had mixed results past round 2, but I think that team is substantially better now than when Heckert took over.

Who had more influences on draft, Holmgren or Heckert?

It does not matter because I don't want any GM that will blow a team up and rebuild the team with different philosophy. Heckert fits that bill.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:18 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Lots of smoke that the Jets will be bringing in Tom Gamble as GM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
YotoJets007
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Lots of smoke that the Jets will be bringing in Tom Gamble as GM.
I thought the minority rule only applies on head coaching vacancy.

I hope Marc Ross is not too busy to help us meet the minority rule. I hate long wait.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
Robcards
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Not that I think Heckert was the right guy for the job, but the Browns definitely hit on some guys outside round 1. Sheard is one example, and Josh Gordon looks like he has a nice future.

Plus if we're going by draft picks, the Niners took AJ Jenkins in the first last year. That pick looked bad at the time and if anything looks even worse after the season.
I said no good players after 2nd round. Sheard and Gordon = early 2nd round picks. Even with AJ Jenkins the Niners drafts the past 3 years >>>>> Browns
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Alright fine, I misread you. Still, cmarq pointed out Benjamin and Winn who look solid. If you take out first and second round picks the Niners drafts look a lot worse too.

You're arguing a different point than me anyway. I don't think Heckert was as bad as you made him out to be. Not saying that the Browns have drafted better than the 49ers over the last few years.
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