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Old 01-05-2013, 06:27 PM    (permalink
SolidGold
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Bridgewater plays in the big least - he had a good game against a top defense but I think Manziel going up against superior competition week and week out will help him prepare for the next level.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by descendency View Post
And the award for the biggest over-reaction of the year goes to ... (you guys)

Manziel isn't a form copy of Russell Wilson. He's a form copy of Ty Detmer. Wilson has a better arm, by far. When Manziel loses two of the best tackles in college football, we're going to get to see how good of a passer he really is.

Let's not forget what Sam Bradford looked like at OU behind his beasty OL.

Johnny Manziel is actually what you should be to be an elite (maybe even all time great) college QB. The NFL however is a different beast.
Yeah. Lots a lovin' in this thread. I don't see it. I've said it before and I'll say it again... he'll go down as an all-time great College player. Nothing more.

Just my opinion. I'm all for him proving me wrong, though. He is fun to watch.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater plays in the big least - he had a good game against a top defense but I think Manziel going up against superior competition week and week out will help him prepare for the next level.
That's silly to begin with, but Louisville is moving to the ACC next year, so the competition gap will close. If its something that really matters to you.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
I saw more translatable plays from Bridgewater. He played a better defense in his game too, one that Manziel really struggled with passing the ball.
Florida's defense is great against the run but their front 4 doesn't rush the passer and Muschamp rarely brought pressure. Bridgewater is likely a top 5 pick but Manziel's upside is off the charts.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Florida's defense is great against the run but their front 4 doesn't rush the passer and Muschamp rarely brought pressure. Bridgewater is likely a top 5 pick but Manziel's upside is off the charts.
I like Manziel just fine, but I want to see how he performs when teams scheme to keep him in the pocket. He isn't catching anyone off guard next year.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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I like Manziel just fine, but I want to see how he performs when teams scheme to keep him in the pocket. He isn't catching anyone off guard next year.
fair enough. On some level too they'll probably want to reel him in and it might help his career in the long run. Watching the rivals aa game today it looks like the Angie's are cleaning up on receivers. I hope Manziel stays beyond just next year.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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fair enough. On some level too they'll probably want to reel him in and it might help his career in the long run. Watching the rivals aa game today it looks like the Angie's are cleaning up on receivers. I hope Manziel stays beyond just next year.
Definitely a very fun player to watch. I'm probably just biased towards the traditional pocket passers.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater plays in the big least - he had a good game against a top defense but I think Manziel going up against superior competition week and week out will help him prepare for the next level.
I think developing the skills necessary to succeed are more important than level of competition. Other than Peyton Manning, there are few QBs from the SEC that are good, Matt Stafford included. A good QB can come from any school, any conference. What I think will help Manziel succeed more than anything is the fact that A&M doesn't have the elite talent like the better schools in the SEC and it forces him to work harder than a QB with more weapons. I firmly believe that for a QB to develop his skills, he needs to face adversity fairly often. You don't get that adversity when you're Matt Leinart (or any other QB from a top school) handing off to a first round pick, being protected by two first round picks and a couple of late rounders, and throwing to a a 1st and a 3rd with a 3rd WR that is the #1 recruit in the nation, and then getting the ball back inj good shape from a defense that is one of the nation's best (not saying that is what happened, just what typically does happen). Adversity means, you're Ben Roethlisberger, Teddy Bridgewater, or Drew Brees, playing on a crappy team like Miami of Ohio team trying to elevate those guys to greater heights.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Definitely a very fun player to watch. I'm probably just biased towards the traditional pocket passers.
I agree with you 100%, my bias leans towards the pocket passers.

Unfortunately the NFL has really skewed the rules of the game to favor offenses which has led to the spread option being introduced into the NFL. I think Maziel could run that offense very well - the astounding thing about him is that most of his runs are not designed and are just done on the fly. That makes him more intriguing to me than guys like Newton and Griffin who get most of their yards like that on designed runs.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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The Ty Detmer comparison is so offbase. I heard some analyst say it once during the season and just scratched my head.
An elusive QB with more athleticism than brains and a weak arm, while being short? prototypical college QB. He's a slightly better Colt McCoy.

I really want to see what happens next year when Joekel and Matthews leave and he's behind a average/mediocre OL.

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The way the NFL game is going Manziel should have no issue translating his skillset from the college to pro level.
I'm almost tired of hearing this. The NFL isn't going to running QBs. Mobility (within the pocket) is (and always has been) incredibly valuable. Running 20 yards down field and then getting killed by a LB, is not.

Why does Michael Vick have 1 season where he's played 16 games? Because he takes so many (bad) hits. Cam Newton will have more of them because he's built a lot better, but Cam Newton is a rare kind of athlete. Robert Griffin has already missed games because of injury. Mobile like Aaron Rodgers? Yes, please. Mobile like Mike Vick? If we are playing back yard ball... sure.

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He is only 20 years old so I am sure he will still develop some physically - get bigger, stronger. People should be as excited about this guy as they were about Newton and Griffin.
Yeah. The guy might develop into something great in a few years. Let him mature some.

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Sam Bradford was a great QB prospect who went first overall and is developing nicely for the Rams...
Developing nicely? lol? It's time to stop making excuses for Bradford.

Team defense: top 14 (yards and points). Offensively they are 23rd in yards with Steven Jackson and 25th in points.

The #1 pick is a bottom 10 QB 3 seasons after being drafted? It's developing nicely if you are Arizona, San Francisco, and Seattle. (and basically every other team in the NFC)
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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At this point, I still like Bridgewater more than Manziel as an NFL prospect. Manziel, to me, is no doubt more fun to watch. I grade Bridgewater as a top 5 talent. to me Manziel is a pick 16-32 player. That being said, I didn't have Ponder or Locker that high.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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An elusive QB with more athleticism than brains and a weak arm, while being short? prototypical college QB. He's a slightly better Colt McCoy.
Don't really want to argue but I think Manziel is a MUCH better athlete than Detmer was. Manziel's athleticism is being really underrated IMO.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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I'm not fond of any QBs from this draft, Geno Smith, I suppose, is the best of the evil. He might be okay under Andy Reid. Matt Barkley is a less athletic Matt Sanchez. Too many weapons, not enough adversity, didn't ovecome the adversity when faced with it. Sean Glennon, too inconsistent, though I like his potential more than the others. Tyler Wilson I like, but was Arkansas so poor that he couldn't elevate his team a little bit? They lost badly to some so-so teams this year. Aaron Murray? I think Bridgewater and Manziel have recently shown Murray fans what a real QB prospect looks like. I don't think much of him. Tyler Bray, Ryan Leaf comes to mind... though Leaf was a battler, he might not have been intelligent, in-shape, or particularly, coothe, but he'd fight you to the end. Bray just seems like an arrogant twit.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Don't really want to argue but I think Manziel is a MUCH better athlete than Detmer was. Manziel's athleticism is being really underrated IMO.
Oh God no, it wasn't even close! Not slightly. Detmer could barely run, definitely had a weaker arm. He also had a tiny little frame.

I'm telling you, a good comparison is Steve Young. Young wasn't the 6'2 he was supposed to be, ran a good 4.5, had an average arm. Think about Young at BYU, with the LA Express, with the Bucs. He was a scrappy wildman at times. Manziel and him are very similar.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Oh God no, it wasn't even close! Not slightly. Detmer could barely run, definitely had a weaker arm. He also had a tiny little frame.

I'm telling you, a good comparison is Steve Young. Young wasn't the 6'2 he was supposed to be, ran a good 4.5, had an average arm. Think about Young at BYU, with the LA Express, with the Bucs. He was a scrappy wildman at times. Manziel and him are very similar.
Steve Young was a far more accurate passer, though. (and dare I say it... more athletic)
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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Steve Young was a far more accurate passer, though. (and dare I say it... more athletic)
Steve Young is probably one of the most athletic QBs in the history of the league so I'd have no issue with you saying he was more athletic than Manziel.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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Don't really want to argue but I think Manziel is a MUCH better athlete than Detmer was. Manziel's athleticism is being really underrated IMO.
It's really a poor comparison to make, between Ty Detmer and Manziel. In fact the only place I've heard anyone suggest Detmer was 'athletic' is on this board.
Detmer could make throws on the run, but he wasn't a downfield scrambler like Manziel is.
Detmer had NEGATIVE yards rushing every season at BYU and NEVER had a single rushing TD.

Calling him a more athletic Colt McCoy is closer to the truth IMO, but right now it looks like Manziel is projecting to be an even better college player/pro prospect.

As a pure athlete, I think Manziel as a QB should be placed in the same category as Newton/RG3/Locker and even Luck.

If you've ever watched this dude play hoops, he's dunking on people.
The kid makes things happen. Just a pure playmaker at QB who you have to believe is only going to get better at performing the fundamentals of his position.

THis was Manziel's first season as a starter in the SEC, and he threw for over 3700 yards, 68% completions, 24 TDs/ 8 INTs and rushed for almost 1200 yards and 19 TDs. That's insane for a RS freshman in any conference.
To do that in the SEC and your name isn't Tebow or Newton is saying something.

As a SKins fan when I watch Manziel play, I have no doubt he could run Kyle SHanahan's offense in Washington and put up huge numbers.
No Manziel isn't the prototype, but if you're an NFL HC and you want to run a multiple set/formation hybrid offense that utilizes zone read and spread concepts, there's not another QB you draft before Manziel.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Steve Young is probably one of the most athletic QBs in the history of the league so I'd have no issue with you saying he was more athletic than Manziel.
I really liked Young, but I don't think he was one of the most athletic QBs in NFL history, I think he was one of the most athletic SUCCESSFUL QBs in league history. Quick fact about Young that may or may not be able to be verified online. When Young played for the USFL, the Express was hit hard by injury at the RB position. Instead of signing a bum off the street, they moved Steve Young to RB and brought in soon-t0-be NFL back up Blair Kiel at QB.

There are many QBs playing now that are just as, or even more, athletic than Young: Joe Webb, RGIII, Newton, Kaepernick, Locker, and Vick, they just haven't had the careers that Young had. But just imagine if Young had spent his career getting his face kicked in with the Bucs... it would be Steve Who? There are many more guys that were just as athletic or more so: Elway, Cunningham, Vince Evans, McNabb, Akili Smith, Dante Culpepper, and a few others... but other than Elway, nobody came close to Young as far as career success.

Anyways, this is where I make the comparison:

Accuracy-don-t know if the record still stands, but I'm pretty sure Steve Young held the all-time record for completion percentage when he was a senior at like 70%. According to information I read a million years ago, Young was a legit 4.5 guy. He didn't have the strongest arm, but he could really move, and throw on the run.

As for Manziel, he is listed on several sites as having 4.53-4.56 speed. From watching him easily pull away from LBs and seeing CBs not gain ground on him in the open field, I think Manziel is also a legit 4.50 guy. He also throws very well on the run. For the record, Manziel completed 68% of his passes this season. I think it is safe to say he will only get more accurate. As for the differences in the two offenses... BYU was running at the time, what the present time equivelant of the college spread. Lots of easy throws, spreading the defense out, much more emphasis on the passing game than running out of pro formations. Gary Crowton's passing spread came from the BYU tree.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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Can't wait until he's overranalyzed, people start to care more and more about his height, and talk about how his running style will make him injury prone in the NFL. Then hopefully the COwboys will get to take him.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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He is like Tebow, but he beat Bama, and can pass the ball.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:53 PM    (permalink
dannyz
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I think the Sucsess of RG3 will be big for Manziel as a NFL Prospect. If RG3 keeps getting hurt with his style of play that could hurt Manziel, I just think with the way the NFL is today and teams running more College style offenses Johnny Manziel has a chance to be the 1st Overall Pick in 2014.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyz View Post
I think the Sucsess of RG3 will be big for Manziel as a NFL Prospect. If RG3 keeps getting hurt with his style of play that could hurt Manziel, I just think with the way the NFL is today and teams running more College style offenses Johnny Manziel has a chance to be the 1st Overall Pick in 2014.
It might drive his stock up even more. Teams that run the read option will need good backups. Dennis Dixon, Darron Thomas, and some of these read option only guys will suddenly find their names being called on draft day... I'm not sure I believe that myself, but theoretically it sounds feasible.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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Bridgewater plays in the big least - he had a good game against a top defense but I think Manziel going up against superior competition week and week out will help him prepare for the next level.
Like it has the plethora of other SEC qbs in the NFL.

QBs can come from any school and competition, doesn't matter, as long as they have the ability and brains, they can make it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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Ty Detmer!?!? If you didn't watch the COtton Bowl then why are you commenting? 'He won't sneak up on anybody'. Next year? OU had a month to prepare and he made them look silly IN THE POCKET ad well as outside. 'OUs D SUCKS' youll say. OK he did something similar against all NFL players at BRYANT DENNEY this year. My 'hyperbole' (which I was accused of for Luck last year) is simply exciting eval for a special young player after one of the most impressive performances I've ever seen on a football field weeks after WINNING THE HEISMAN AS A FRESHMAN.

Will he be this good in the NFL? Who knows. But he does Big Ben stuff better than Big Ben and his arm was flat out dynamite. The accuracy was scary please watch the tape over and tell me I'm exaggerating.

Is he as fast as Vick? Probably not. But his impact as a runner is absolutely bigger than Vicks ever was in college.

Will everything translate seamlessly to the NFL? That's the beauty of it - we don't know. But what I saw was as electric and dynamic a QB performance I've ever seen and all we can do is evaluate PROSPECTS.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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Steve Young was 90% as athletic as this kid for about 15 seconds of his life against Minnesota. Golly gee whiz watch his first Td down the sideline.

His 40 isn't going to be that great but it's quite obvious his BURST is what separates him. He's got acceleration like a stud RB. He always gets caught from behind because his long speed isn't 4.3. But that initial burst off of 1 cut is top tier RB stuff.
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