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Old 01-08-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
HypocrisyIsGreat
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Because elite CBs are harder to find. Champ Bailey is a hall of fame player at CB. Clinton Potis was a really good RB. If you offer me Darrelle Revis right now for Adrian Peterson I'm taking that deal in a heartbeat
Why did Portis YPC fall off a cliff in Washington?
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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I keep getting neg rep with comments from some doofus named Cmarq? Dude, if my superior football opinion bothers you that much, you can go ahead and ignore. Jeeeeebus.
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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I keep getting neg rep with comments from some doofus named Cmarq? Dude, if my superior football opinion bothers you that much, you can go ahead and ignore. Jeeeeebus.
I only neg rep people whose sole purpose here is to troll, and people who call people idiots for not agreeing with them. That essentially makes it you and jsagan. Start posting something worthwhile and you'll stop getting neg repped it's as simple as that. No point in whining about it when it happens.
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I only neg rep people whose sole purpose here is to troll, and people who call people idiots for not agreeing with them. That essentially makes it you and jsagan. Start posting something worthwhile and you'll stop getting neg repped it's as simple as that. No point in whining about it when it happens.
Fortunately, it's not up to you to decide what's "worthwhile". You've shown already in a few threads that your football intellect is lacking, and as a result, seem to go about things like Ness with the passive aggressive little pot shots instead of sticking on topic.

You've commented 3 times on the rep thingy, isn't it time for you to get a hobby other than humping my leg? I don't waste my time "neg repping" anyone here for a terrible post, because if I did, I'd be at it for the whole day.

Now answer me this...Who is trolling?

Poster A) Talks football, has a non groupthink opinion but sticks on topic and backs his opinions up

Poster B) Veers off topic, makes useless insinuations about 2 posters being the same person, spams other users Rep comments.

Which one is it? Do you know what trolling is junior?
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Why did Portis YPC fall off a cliff in Washington?
I never argued that playing in Shanahan's system helped him, in fact I agree that it did. It's a ridiculous thing though to lambast players who make full use of a system and then fail to perform at the same level in a system that doesn't suit them.

Clinton Portis was the definition of a top notch one cut and go RB. But pretty much every single player in the NFL better fits certain systems to others.

Duane Brown is a consensus top 3 LT in the NFL today. However he wouldn't be as effective in a power man blocking system.

You put Adrian Peterson in an offense that utilises mainly shotgun draws and sweeps and I can be confident in telling you he likely won't put up 2000 yards.

Put Jerry Rice in an offense that runs mainly vertical concepts and he doesn't have the same success as he did in the WCO.

It's a simple fact that every single player has strengths and weaknesses. No player is perfect. Take next year's draft as an example. People are already drooling over Jadeveon Clowney. He is going to be the best player in that class and is already the best player in college football. If he gets drafted into a 34 he will be very good at OLB, but not as successful as he would be as a down end in a 43.

The problem with the NFL is so many coaches try to fit square pegs into round holes. You can't criticise a guy for producing in an offense that suits him, let alone guys who produce at historic rates.

Terrell Davis had over 6000 yards and 56 TDs in his first 4 years in the NFL. He had a 3 year stretch which is virtually unmatchable in the history of the NFL. But hey he suited the system so he's just a jag. Well Jerry Rice suited the WCO and had some of the best talent ever assembled on one team around him. I suppose he's just a jag also?
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I never argued that playing in Shanahan's system helped him, in fact I agree that it did. It's a ridiculous thing though to lambast players who make full use of a system and then fail to perform at the same level in a system that doesn't suit them.

Clinton Portis was the definition of a top notch one cut and go RB. But pretty much every single player in the NFL better fits certain systems to others.

Duane Brown is a consensus top 3 LT in the NFL today. However he wouldn't be as effective in a power man blocking system.

You put Adrian Peterson in an offense that utilises mainly shotgun draws and sweeps and I can be confident in telling you he likely won't put up 2000 yards.

Put Jerry Rice in an offense that runs mainly vertical concepts and he doesn't have the same success as he did in the WCO.

It's a simple fact that every single player has strengths and weaknesses. No player is perfect. Take next year's draft as an example. People are already drooling over Jadeveon Clowney. He is going to be the best player in that class and is already the best player in college football. If he gets drafted into a 34 he will be very good at OLB, but not as successful as he would be as a down end in a 43.

The problem with the NFL is so many coaches try to fit square pegs into round holes. You can't criticise a guy for producing in an offense that suits him, let alone guys who produce at historic rates.

Terrell Davis had over 6000 yards and 56 TDs in his first 4 years in the NFL. He had a 3 year stretch which is virtually unmatchable in the history of the NFL. But hey he suited the system so he's just a jag. Well Jerry Rice suited the WCO and had some of the best talent ever assembled on one team around him. I suppose he's just a jag also?
I was following your point until you mentioned Rice not having success as much in a vertical offense. Newsflash, the WCO isn't what you think it was. Rice blew past people vertically with regularity during his career and there's numerous tape out there to prove it.

So sorry, but after a ridiculous point like that, I can't take your football opinion all that seriously.

Adrian Peterson would be pretty damned effective in any running scheme. Notice you used total yards for Peterson not being the same instead of YPC(effectiveness) like I used with Portis.

Duane Brown is the most athletically gifted LT in football right now so I'm pretty sure he'd be tits in any scheme as well.

Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis were not special running backs. Portis was fast, and wasn't entirely useless like a welker(lol), but having your YPC drop a whole yard going from one team to another kinda illustrates the point that some coaches really do have a schematics edge over other coaches/teams. I know, the mere THOUGHT of this is baffling to DC posters, but hey, it's true.
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Fortunately, it's not up to you to decide what's "worthwhile". You've shown already in a few threads that your football intellect is lacking, and as a result, seem to go about things like Ness with the passive aggressive little pot shots instead of sticking on topic.

You've commented 3 times on the rep thingy, isn't it time for you to get a hobby other than humping my leg? I don't waste my time "neg repping" anyone here for a terrible post, because if I did, I'd be at it for the whole day.

Now answer me this...Who is trolling?

Poster A) Talks football, has a non groupthink opinion but sticks on topic and backs his opinions up

Poster B) Veers off topic, makes useless insinuations about 2 posters being the same person, spams other users Rep comments.

Which one is it? Do you know what trolling is junior?
Fair enough, I guess I did troll Jordan earlier in this thread.

However, I haven't neg repped Jordan because even though as wildly offbase as I think he is, I genuinely believe he's trying to discuss football and make a point. I respect that fact and I debated with him until the point where I believe that I could no longer have a productive conversation with him because he had veered too far away from the truth. I'll poke fun at his schtick at his expense because he seems to have an overly inflated ego of his football acumen, so much so that he believes that he can evaluate someone as being an average talent compared to the other 99.99% of the football world including people who know far more than he ever will. I tend to agree with him somewhat that both Wes Welker and Terrell Davis are overrated in football circles, but the extent to which he tries to take it falls purely in the realm of fiction.

On the other hand you have provided nothing new to any of the conversations, and your sole purpose here seems just to call people who disagree with Jordan idiots or to back up what Jordan says. I applaud you for attempting to weigh in on other topics recently, but until you do something besides being Jordan's less informed alter ego I'm going to continue to believe that you're not a real person.
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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I was following your point until you mentioned Rice not having success as much in a vertical offense. Newsflash, the WCO isn't what you think it was. Rice blew past people vertically with regularity during his career and there's numerous tape out there to prove it.

So sorry, but after a ridiculous point like that, I can't take your football opinion all that seriously.

Adrian Peterson would be pretty damned effective in any running scheme. Notice you used total yards for Peterson not being the same instead of YPC(effectiveness) like I used with Portis.

Duane Brown is the most athletically gifted LT in football right now so I'm pretty sure he'd be tits in any scheme as well.

Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis were not special running backs. Portis was fast, and wasn't entirely useless like a welker(lol), but having your YPC drop a whole yard going from one team to another kinda illustrates the point that some coaches really do have a schematics edge over other coaches/teams. I know, the mere THOUGHT of this is baffling to DC posters, but hey, it's true.
I never at any stage said Rice didn't run past people, however if you really think that the 49ers won all their Superbowls by having their WRs simply run up the field then you are the one who is being ridiculous.

The main theme of Walsh's offense was a quick, rythym passing attack. Instead of having the QB take deep drops he focused more on 3 and 5 step drops.

Oh, and I'm also pretty sure that Jerry Rice said his favourite route in the NFL was the slant route. This is the route he ran more often than any other and yes, he often ran past people running this route but a slant route is not a vertical route. The slant route is the most common 3 step route run.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat View Post
I was following your point until you mentioned Rice not having success as much in a vertical offense. Newsflash, the WCO isn't what you think it was. Rice blew past people vertically with regularity during his career and there's numerous tape out there to prove it.

So sorry, but after a ridiculous point like that, I can't take your football opinion all that seriously.

Adrian Peterson would be pretty damned effective in any running scheme. Notice you used total yards for Peterson not being the same instead of YPC(effectiveness) like I used with Portis.

Duane Brown is the most athletically gifted LT in football right now so I'm pretty sure he'd be tits in any scheme as well.

Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis were not special running backs. Portis was fast, and wasn't entirely useless like a welker(lol), but having your YPC drop a whole yard going from one team to another kinda illustrates the point that some coaches really do have a schematics edge over other coaches/teams. I know, the mere THOUGHT of this is baffling to DC posters, but hey, it's true.
First off, when Portis left to go to Washington, he was asked to be a more bruiser/power RB.
Then, you mention how Portis "only" averaged 4.3 ypc in Washington like that is so horrible.

Both Davis and Portis were special, and Davis' HOF career was cut short due to injuries. Portis' career ended up being riddled with injuries because the Redskins worked him into the ground. His 4 healthy seasons, he averaged 1,400 yards rushing, a 4.0+ ypc, and 9 TD's a season. Pretty flippin good.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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People need to understand that Portis was allowed to be a totally instinctive runner in Denver; he was allowed to pick the lane/hole he thought was open and run to daylight.

Under Gibbs 2.0 CP was coached to hit the hole as designed by the specific run play and run through it, even if Portis could see after the snap a LB was about to fill. That's why Portis bulked up to 218-220# with the Skins to handle the punishment he had to absorb.

Averaging going from averaging 5.5 ypc to 4.3ypc and describing that as a 'drop in production' would be like saying Drew Brees had a subpar year if he 'only' threw for 4300 yards and 25 TDs. That's a drop from great to good, not good to below average.

If CP was still a pro bowl RB in an entirely different scheme, I would imagine Terrell Davis who was the superior RB would have been highly productive playing for another team not named the Broncos too.

You guys kill me with these zany theories on SWDC. They're like quicksand.

Shanny FOUND two talented RBs who he believed had the skillset to be successful in his offense. Mission accomplished.
He also drafted guys who could be productive runners in a ZBS, but weren't dynamic talents.
For instance if Tobey Gerhart started the entire season for the Vikings, I have no doubt if he stayed healthy, he's capable of rushing for more than 1200 yards. Which would mean nothing in a discussion of AD.

More than one skill player is allowed to be successful in a the same scheme, that still doesn't mean every one of those players are strictly 'system players'.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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People need to understand that Portis was allowed to be a totally instinctive runner in Denver; he was allowed to pick the lane/hole he thought was open and run to daylight.

Under Gibbs 2.0 CP was coached to hit the hole as designed by the specific run play and run through it, even if Portis could see after the snap a LB was about to fill. That's why Portis bulked up to 218-220# with the Skins to handle the punishment he had to absorb.

Averaging going from averaging 5.5 ypc to 4.3ypc and describing that as a 'drop in production' would be like saying Drew Brees had a subpar year if he 'only' threw for 4300 yards and 25 TDs. That's a drop from great to good, not good to below average.

If CP was still a pro bowl RB in an entirely different scheme, I would imagine Terrell Davis who was the superior RB would have been highly productive playing for another team not named the Broncos too.

You guys kill me with these zany theories on SWDC. They're like quicksand.

Shanny FOUND two talented RBs who he believed had the skillset to be successful in his offense. Mission accomplished.
He also drafted guys who could be productive runners in a ZBS, but weren't dynamic talents.
For instance if Tobey Gerhart started the entire season for the Vikings, I have no doubt if he stayed healthy, he's capable of rushing for more than 1200 yards. Which would mean nothing in a discussion of AD.

More than one skill player is allowed to be successful in a the same scheme, that still doesn't mean every one of those players are strictly 'system players'.
You make some good points. The universe doesn't work in absolutes and/or black and white ways. Terrell Davis was a gem that was hand picked by Shanahan and his staff that worked wonders for their system. That however doesn't mean that Terrell Davis couldn't have been productive on another team. Davis played on a talented roster with coaches that put him into position to succeed. Maybe he didn't have as much elusiveness and some other halfbacks or wasn't a speedster, but he had great anticipation, vision, and natural instincts that you can't necessarily teach, like a quarterback that has to throw the correct ball at the correct time at the correct spot to get it to the intended target. You can't necessarily teach someone's intuition to work the way it's designed to. Just because he wasn't the most physically gifted specimen ever created, doesn't mean he couldn't play at a Hall of Fame level.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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Because its crushing to your argument?
You don't even know what my argument is. This is getting sad.


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They didn't play in the system for the same coaching staff during a short period of time. Stay on topic.
You didn't set that restriction. You just started talking about "career numbers."

There aren't really any good parallels to the Davis vs. other Denver backs situation because it's rare for a coach to be so in tune with how interchangeable a certain position in his system really is. Shanahan would get franchise back caliber numbers out of a runner one season, then demote him or dump him the next.


Quote:
Who said it was? Your argument sounds better when you question things no one said, doesn't it? Why do you think Jerry Rice is bad? Because he was the greatest. See? Your mom gave you herpes? That's weird.
What was that again?

You: I like how you try to cover up some of those RBs failures. They got benched. All of them did.

Mike Anderson got benched after posting 1484 yards in 13 games on 5.0 yards/carry. You're accusing me of "covering up some of those RBs (sic) failures." They were "failures" and they "got benched," in your words.

Not one of the running backs I listed failed in Denver. They all had good statistics within their role in the running game.


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I'm overwhelmed by those incredible stats. Now, if you could just extrapolate those numbers into 16 game seasons that would be great.
I already did. It makes those already impressive numbers for those journeyman backs even better. I guess you think nonsequitur sarcasm is somehow going to help you?

Quote:
They had a great team. If Davis was there? Probably a Super Bowl appearance at the very least. Maybe Davis earns a starting job and runs for 2,000 yards himself. Who knows? Maybe he breaks Dickerson' record. I think he would have behind that offensive line.
And if he did, would it mean anything? The tandem of journeymen-caliber Anderson and Bell combined for 1935 yards and 20 TDs and each of them only played in 15 games.


Quote:
They failed on the Broncos too. Throw those stats out there would ya? Or is 400 yard rushing totals going to impress you because they averaged 4.5 YPC?
I guess you don't understand how "running back by committee works."

You see, after Portis left, Shanahan began rotating backs and still totaling the same production he was getting with one. When you rotate backs, as opposed to using one feature runner, the production of an individual back is limited because he receives many fewer carries.

4 - 2 = 2.

You're accusing backs with excellent yards/carry averages in limited touches of "failing." Let me guess, Darren Sproles is a failure, too? He averaged 6.1 yards/carry in 2011, but who cares about all that? He only had 603 yards that year. FAILURE!

And last year, 5.1 yards/carry, but major epic fail with only 244 yards. He's no 1995 Derek Loville (723 yards on 3.3 yards/carry), that's for sure!


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Because Shanahan doesn't have an eye for defensive talent? Because his defenses usually suck? It was holding them back?

Just to get a top corner? I laugh at you.
The move was unprecedented. Your attempt to misdirect is what is laughable.


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Weird post.
I guess you forgot to take your medication today.


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Okay, so they were trending down? That's what I recall. Shanahan with too much confidence in himself. It's probably what got him fired. And drafting terrible defensive players.
They were running the ball less and throwing the ball more. When they ran, they were still having success. But when you have Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, throwing the ball becomes more appealing.


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When one of Shanahans RBs comes close to replicating these numbers over a four year span:

1,547 Attempts / 7,553 rushing yards / 4.88 Avg / 68 TDs

171 Receptions / 1,322 receiving yards / 7.7 Avg / 5 TDs

1,718 Touches / 8,875 total yards / 73 total TDs

Average per year: 429 touches / 2,218.75 total yards / 18.25 TDs

Then we'll start listing the number of backs that could do what TD did. When someone does, I'll probably call that mystery back a player as good as Davis, maybe even better.
Give Alfred Morris 3 more years, then. Shanahan probably won't, though. He might bench him early on next year for some other guy and you can call him a "failure." Then Morris will reemerge as a rotational back, gaining 550 yards on 5.2 yards/carry, but he'll still be a failure in your eyes.



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They never earned a starting role for consecutive seasons. They didn't earn a huge contract extension like Davis did after his rookie season. They were given a shot. Most were never given a shot by anyone but Denver you bozo.
Uh, bozo...the fact that they weren't given a shot by anyone but Denver works against your argument, not for it.

They never "earned" a starting role for consecutive seasons? Ha! What 1484 yard on 5.0 yards/carry, 15 TD-scoring, in 13 game...RB...doesn't "earn" a starting job for a second season?

The Broncos tried to trade Anderson after that season. They traded Reuben Droughns after his big 2004 season. They traded Portis after 2 seasons.

You see a pattern yet?


Quote:
Portis had a good career, borderline great career. Not a failure. Gibbs was a failure. Do you always suck this much at reading?
I guess you do. I didn't say you called Portis a "failure." I was talking about his undeniable failure to replicate what he did in Denver, and the fact that you were blaming that on ******* Gibbs (and the offensive line). What a lame cop out. So it's not that Denver's blocking scheme was exceedingly effective that made ordinary backs look like world beaters....it's just that Portis, despite being a world beater that was just a hair below all-time world beater Terrell Davis, went to a team that was SOOOOoooooo BAAAAaaaaad, man. Just the worst offensive line and that IDIOTIC FAILURE, Hall of Fame offensive mastermind head coach Joe Gibbs, preventing the legitimately awesome Portis from achieving what he did in Denver.


Quote:
Jansen was never the same player after he missed an entire season (Portis' first year). He rebounded well in 2005 when the Redskins had their best line (Portis went over 1,500 yards), but he was nagged with injuries throughout the end of his career and missed quite a bit of time.
Hilarious. You're so clearly basing Jansen's "bounceback season" on Portis's performance. We all know you weren't watching Redskins games and analyzing their offensive linemen.

Talk about talking out of your ass.


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Jason Fabini, Pete Kendall, Todd Wade and Ray Brown were certainly old. Then there were guys like Stephon Heyer and Chad Rinehart who just sucked as football players.
Oh, I get it: Let's talk about two backups who filled in for 3 or 4 games in the span of about 5 years. I forgot - in order for a running back's line to be adquate, every single starter must be healthy 100% of the time.

Throw in a guy who started 1 season filling in for an injured Jansen who was always a strong run blocker, and two other guys who were only starters in 2007.

That totally explains Portis never, in 7 seasons with the team, averaging more than 4.3 yards/carry.


Quote:
Right.

Sounds stupid. Guess you haven't seen the rest of those guys throw. No surprise.
I take it everything you don't understand "sounds stupid" to you, right?

Yeah, I've seen the other guys throw. Talent is about more than having a strong arm. Not every throw is a 9 or a deep out, and it takes more than a strong arm to excel on those throws, anyway.

Those guys all lack the ability to make touch throws and their accuracy varies.


Quote:
Marino scored a... Oh, what was it? And Alex Smith scored? Oh, cool argument. Smith is better. Smarter wins. Awesome argument bozo.
Marino had a low score, but it was still not nearly as bad as Gore/Young's. And...get this...I called him one of the most talented quarterbacks in NFL history. That, bozo, is why he excelled. Marino had the talent to where he could make things happen purely with his innate passing ability.


Quote:
I don't know. They ended pretty quick because they couldn't run.
Denver (13:23)
GB 33 1-10 Elway pass to Hebron left overthrown, incomplete.
GB 33 2-10 Hebron run right, no gain (Brown).
GB 33 3-10 Elway pass to R. Smith deep right broken up (T. Williams).
GB 33 4-10 Elam, 51-yard field goal (12:21).
Denver scoring drive:
0 yards, 3 plays, 1:02. Denver 17, Green Bay 7


Denver (10:09)
D 39 1-10 Elway 6 pass to Sharpe left (T. Williams).
D 45 2-4 Elway 3 pass to Sharpe crossing right (Harris).
D 48 3-1 Loville 2 run right (Brown). Play nullified and Denver penalized 5 for illegal formation (Zimmerman).
D 43 3-6 Elway rushed, 5 swing pass to Hebron right (B. Williams).
D 48 4-1 Rouen 47 punt, downed at GB 5.


Only ran once in either of the drives in the second quarter (no gain by Hebron). Loville picked up the 1st down on the second drive, only for it to be called back for an illegal formation.

Not exactly a legitimate sample size, ya know?
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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I never at any stage said Rice didn't run past people, however if you really think that the 49ers won all their Superbowls by having their WRs simply run up the field then you are the one who is being ridiculous.
No team has ever done that.


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The main theme of Walsh's offense was a quick, rythym passing attack. Instead of having the QB take deep drops he focused more on 3 and 5 step drops.
That's a myth based on revisionist history.

The 49ers very rarely called passing plays with 3 step drops. 5 and 7 step drops were far more common.

Walsh was generally a pretty traditional coach. People never talk about Freddie Solomon, who was a lethal deep threat whom they'd throw a couple bombs to in just about every game, if only to soften up the defense by showing they would throw it (Montana actually held Solomon back a little with his inconsistency on deep ball placement). They never stop and ask why Walsh signed Renaldo Nehemiah. They never ask why Walsh drafted Jerry Rice in the first place, and why Eddie Brown was actually higher on his draft board in 1985. They never remember that James Lofton played for Walsh at Stanford. And Isaac Curtis in Cincinnati.


Quote:
Oh, and I'm also pretty sure that Jerry Rice said his favourite route in the NFL was the slant route. This is the route he ran more often than any other and yes, he often ran past people running this route but a slant route is not a vertical route. The slant route is the most common 3 step route run.
Not true. The slant route was a rare sight, even in the 49ers' offense. The 49ers did not invent the slant. The only reason people remember the route being run by the 49ers so much is Rice and Taylor had rare ability after the catch and took a few of them the distance. Those plays are more salient in people's minds.

It should also be noted that a lot of the long runs after the catch that people refer to as "slants" weren't even slants at all. They were drag routes (or "drives," as Walsh called them).
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:12 PM    (permalink
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You don't even know what my argument is. This is getting sad.




You didn't set that restriction. You just started talking about "career numbers."

There aren't really any good parallels to the Davis vs. other Denver backs situation because it's rare for a coach to be so in tune with how interchangeable a certain position in his system really is. Shanahan would get franchise back caliber numbers out of a runner one season, then demote him or dump him the next.




What was that again?

You: I like how you try to cover up some of those RBs failures. They got benched. All of them did.

Mike Anderson got benched after posting 1484 yards in 13 games on 5.0 yards/carry. You're accusing me of "covering up some of those RBs (sic) failures." They were "failures" and they "got benched," in your words.

Not one of the running backs I listed failed in Denver. They all had good statistics within their role in the running game.




I already did. It makes those already impressive numbers for those journeyman backs even better. I guess you think nonsequitur sarcasm is somehow going to help you?



And if he did, would it mean anything? The tandem of journeymen-caliber Anderson and Bell combined for 1935 yards and 20 TDs and each of them only played in 15 games.




I guess you don't understand how "running back by committee works."

You see, after Portis left, Shanahan began rotating backs and still totaling the same production he was getting with one. When you rotate backs, as opposed to using one feature runner, the production of an individual back is limited because he receives many fewer carries.

4 - 2 = 2.

You're accusing backs with excellent yards/carry averages in limited touches of "failing." Let me guess, Darren Sproles is a failure, too? He averaged 6.1 yards/carry in 2011, but who cares about all that? He only had 603 yards that year. FAILURE!

And last year, 5.1 yards/carry, but major epic fail with only 244 yards. He's no 1995 Derek Loville (723 yards on 3.3 yards/carry), that's for sure!


Let's see:

Olandis Gary (3 seasons): 346 Attempts / 1,467 rushing yards / 4.2 Avg / 8 TDs

Mike Anderson (5 seasons): 908 Attempts / 3,967 rushing yards / 4.3 / 39 TDs

Reuben Droughns (3 seasons): 293 Attempts / 1,294 rushing yards / 4.4 Avg / 6 TDs

Side note: Droughns went to Cleveland and ran 1,200+ yards after leaving Denver.

Tatum Bell (4 seasons): 548 Attempts / 2,690 rushing yards / 4.9 Avg / 15 TDs

Mike Bell (2 seasons): 163 attempts / 680 rushing yards / 4.1 Avg / 8 TDs

Selvin Young (2 seasons): 201 Attempts / 1,032 rushing yards / 5.1 Avg / 2 TDs




The move was unprecedented. Your attempt to misdirect is what is laughable.




I guess you forgot to take your medication today.




They were running the ball less and throwing the ball more. When they ran, they were still having success. But when you have Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, throwing the ball becomes more appealing.




Give Alfred Morris 3 more years, then. Shanahan probably won't, though. He might bench him early on next year for some other guy and you can call him a "failure." Then Morris will reemerge as a rotational back, gaining 550 yards on 5.2 yards/carry, but he'll still be a failure in your eyes.





Uh, bozo...the fact that they weren't given a shot by anyone but Denver works against your argument, not for it.

They never "earned" a starting role for consecutive seasons? Ha! What 1484 yard on 5.0 yards/carry, 15 TD-scoring, in 13 game...RB...doesn't "earn" a starting job for a second season?

The Broncos tried to trade Anderson after that season. They traded Reuben Droughns after his big 2004 season. They traded Portis after 2 seasons.

You see a pattern yet?




I guess you do. I didn't say you called Portis a "failure." I was talking about his undeniable failure to replicate what he did in Denver, and the fact that you were blaming that on ******* Gibbs (and the offensive line). What a lame cop out. So it's not that Denver's blocking scheme was exceedingly effective that made ordinary backs look like world beaters....it's just that Portis, despite being a world beater that was just a hair below all-time world beater Terrell Davis, went to a team that was SOOOOoooooo BAAAAaaaaad, man. Just the worst offensive line and that IDIOTIC FAILURE, Hall of Fame offensive mastermind head coach Joe Gibbs, preventing the legitimately awesome Portis from achieving what he did in Denver.




Hilarious. You're so clearly basing Jansen's "bounceback season" on Portis's performance. We all know you weren't watching Redskins games and analyzing their offensive linemen.

Talk about talking out of your ass.




Oh, I get it: Let's talk about two backups who filled in for 3 or 4 games in the span of about 5 years. I forgot - in order for a running back's line to be adquate, every single starter must be healthy 100% of the time.

Throw in a guy who started 1 season filling in for an injured Jansen who was always a strong run blocker, and two other guys who were only starters in 2007.

That totally explains Portis never, in 7 seasons with the team, averaging more than 4.3 yards/carry.




I take it everything you don't understand "sounds stupid" to you, right?

Yeah, I've seen the other guys throw. Talent is about more than having a strong arm. Not every throw is a 9 or a deep out, and it takes more than a strong arm to excel on those throws, anyway.

Those guys all lack the ability to make touch throws and their accuracy varies.




Marino had a low score, but it was still not nearly as bad as Gore/Young's. And...get this...I called him one of the most talented quarterbacks in NFL history. That, bozo, is why he excelled. Marino had the talent to where he could make things happen purely with his innate passing ability.




Denver (13:23)
GB 33 1-10 Elway pass to Hebron left overthrown, incomplete.
GB 33 2-10 Hebron run right, no gain (Brown).
GB 33 3-10 Elway pass to R. Smith deep right broken up (T. Williams).
GB 33 4-10 Elam, 51-yard field goal (12:21).
Denver scoring drive:
0 yards, 3 plays, 1:02. Denver 17, Green Bay 7


Denver (10:09)
D 39 1-10 Elway 6 pass to Sharpe left (T. Williams).
D 45 2-4 Elway 3 pass to Sharpe crossing right (Harris).
D 48 3-1 Loville 2 run right (Brown). Play nullified and Denver penalized 5 for illegal formation (Zimmerman).
D 43 3-6 Elway rushed, 5 swing pass to Hebron right (B. Williams).
D 48 4-1 Rouen 47 punt, downed at GB 5.


Only ran once in either of the drives in the second quarter (no gain by Hebron). Loville picked up the 1st down on the second drive, only for it to be called back for an illegal formation.

Not exactly a legitimate sample size, ya know?
Great post.

Quote:
When one of Shanahans RBs comes close to replicating these numbers over a four year span:

1,547 Attempts / 7,553 rushing yards / 4.88 Avg / 68 TDs

171 Receptions / 1,322 receiving yards / 7.7 Avg / 5 TDs

1,718 Touches / 8,875 total yards / 73 total TDs

Average year: 429 touches / 2,218.75 total yards / 18.25 TDs

Then we'll start listing the number of backs that could do what TD did. When someone does, I'll probably call that mystery back a player as good as Davis, maybe even better.
End thread?

Thanks. If Davis was benched and some scrub replaced him and said scrub ran for 2,000 yards and led the Broncos to another Super Bowl, then you might have an argument. And if Davis was then traded and put up numbers like the garbage running backs that you're comparining him to, then, again, you would have an argument. Davis didn't lose his job. Davis wasnt demoted. Davis wasn't part of a committee. Your argument sucks. It's meaningless. And stupid. Bozo.

Just look at those numbers. Who averages 2,200+ yards a season for four consecutive years? Who does that? Other than Hall of Fame RBs? Priest Holmes might be the only other RB not in the Hall of Fame to rival those numbers. But I'm sure yo can search that for me. Look it up please. I'd like to know.


Just to compare.

Quote:
Let's see:

Olandis Gary (3 seasons): 346 Attempts / 1,467 rushing yards / 4.2 Avg / 8 TDs

Mike Anderson (5 seasons): 908 Attempts / 3,967 rushing yards / 4.3 Avg / 39 TDs

Reuben Droughns (3 seasons): 293 Attempts / 1,294 rushing yards / 4.4 Avg / 6 TDs

Side note: Droughns went to Cleveland and ran 1,200+ yards after leaving Denver.

Tatum Bell (4 seasons): 548 Attempts / 2,690 rushing yards / 4.9 Avg / 15 TDs

Mike Bell (2 seasons): 163 attempts / 680 rushing yards / 4.1 Avg / 8 TDs

Selvin Young (2 seasons): 201 Attempts / 1,032 rushing yards / 5.1 Avg / 2 TDs
You have to combine their 19 seasons worth of procution to surpass what TD did in 4 years. Boom.

Like I said, crushing to your arguement.

You wouldn't believe it, but Davis had 1,547 carries over those four years. Gary, Anderson and Droughns had the exact same amount over their 9 combined years (1,547). They rushed for 6,728 yards (825 rushing yards shy of Davis) and 53 rushing TDs (15 shy of Davis). 4.34 average yards per carry. Slightly less than Davis' 4.88. Three different backs over 9 years of work, still with lesser numbers that what TD did. Pretty interesting.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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You make some good points. The universe doesn't work in absolutes and/or black and white ways. Terrell Davis was a gem that was hand picked by Shanahan and his staff that worked wonders for their system. That however doesn't mean that Terrell Davis couldn't have been productive on another team. Davis played on a talented roster with coaches that put him into position to succeed. Maybe he didn't have as much elusiveness and some other halfbacks or wasn't a speedster, but he had great anticipation, vision, and natural instincts that you can't necessarily teach, like a quarterback that has to throw the correct ball at the correct time at the correct spot to get it to the intended target. You can't necessarily teach someone's intuition to work the way it's designed to. Just because he wasn't the most physically gifted specimen ever created, doesn't mean he couldn't play at a Hall of Fame level.
Post right here is ripe with useless cliche's and the overall tone is that of a person who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Is Frank Gore a hall of famer? How about Fred Taylor, who was actually talented? TD a hall of famer....hahahahahaha
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
First off, when Portis left to go to Washington, he was asked to be a more bruiser/power RB.
Then, you mention how Portis "only" averaged 4.3 ypc in Washington like that is so horrible.

Both Davis and Portis were special, and Davis' HOF career was cut short due to injuries. Portis' career ended up being riddled with injuries because the Redskins worked him into the ground. His 4 healthy seasons, he averaged 1,400 yards rushing, a 4.0+ ypc, and 9 TD's a season. Pretty flippin good.
So you blame Portis' regression in Washington due to the....what is that called....SCHEME?

Oh my. This is getting great. Hahahahahahahahahaha.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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Great post.

End thread?

Thanks. If Davis was benched and some scrub replaced him and said scrub ran for 2,000 yards and led the Broncos to another Super Bowl, then you might have an argument. And if Davis was then traded and put up numbers like the garbage running backs that you're comparining him to, then, again, you would have an argument. Davis didn't lose his job. Davis wasnt demoted. Davis wasn't part of a committee. Your argument sucks. It's meaningless. And stupid. Bozo.
Davis wasn't demoted and he wasn't part of a committee. Now you're getting it.

Davis wasn't better than all those other guys, he was just the first. Any thoughts Shanahan had about being able to get similar production from plenty of backs were just hypothetical at that point. You yourself claim that Shanahan's ego ended up hurting the Broncos towards the end by playing musical chairs with his RBs...so apparently you're acknowledging he thought the same way I do.


Quote:
Just look at those numbers. Who averages 2,200+ yards a season for four consecutive years? Who does that? Other than Hall of Fame RBs? Priest Holmes might be the only other RB not in the Hall of Fame to rival those numbers. But I'm sure yo can search that for me. Look it up please. I'd like to know.
Wait a minute, when did this shift to "touches?" Talk about moving the goal posts.

Nobody talks about Davis because he was a great pass catcher, so there's really not much point in discussing it.

Quote:
Just to compare.


You have to combine their 19 seasons worth of procution to surpass what TD did in 4 years. Boom.
Huh?

Davis accumulated 6413 yards and 56 TDs in those 4 years.

All the backs' numbers you came up with total 11,130 yards and 78 TDs. That's WAY more.

And your definition of a "season" is pretty funny.

Gary played in 1 game in 2000. He played in 9 games in 2001.

Tatum Bell played in 7 games in 2008.

Mike Bell played in 5 games in 2007.

Selvin Young played in 8 games in 2008.




Quote:
Like I said, crushing to your arguement.
Your argument doesn't even make sense.

Quote:
You wouldn't believe it, but Davis had 1,547 carries over those four years. Gary, Anderson and Droughns had the exact same amount over their 9 combined years (1,547). They rushed for 6,728 yards (825 rushing yards shy of Davis) and 53 rushing TDs (15 shy of Davis). 4.34 average yards per carry. Slightly less than Davis' 4.88. Three different backs over 9 years of work, still with lesser numbers that what TD did. Pretty interesting.
They didn't have 9 combined years. What a joke that you'd attempt more of this garbage.

Droughns was only the starting RB for 12 games in Denver. That's about 1 season. The only season worth talking about. Olandis Gary also had about another 1 season (1999) with 12 games. The next year, he opened the season with 13 for 80 before blowing out his knee.

Mike Anderson had ~ 28 starts at RB in 2000 and 2005. His starts at FB are meaningless in this discussion.

Anderson split carries with Tatum Bell in 2005, to the tune of Bell posting 921 yards and 8 TDs in the same season. You have to include Bell with Anderson in 2005 to get a "feature RB season." It's only logical.

All in all, the 4 of them combined for about 4 seasons as a starting RB, with some missed starts. Gary with his 1999 season, Anderson with his 2000 season, Anderson and Bell combined for the 2005 season, and Droughns with his 2004 season.

And the numbers turn out fairly close, especially when you see that Davis had more games to do it.

And I refuse to count playoff numbers in this discussion. A team has to get to the playoffs in order for a back to have a chance to put them up.

Davis, Terrell:

61 games: 6413 yards, 56 TDs. 4.8 yards/carry. 105.1 yards/game.


Gary, Anderson, Droughns, Anderson/Bell: 52 games, 5788 yards, 48 TDs, 4.6 yards/carry. 111.3 yards.game.


I took out 33 yards from their totals because I removed a game in 2000 in which Anderson ran 1 time for 3 years, and 2 games where Droughns totaled 30 yards on a total of 10 carries before he replaced Quentin Griffin in the starting lineup in 2004.

If you wish to remove a couple games from Davis's career where he didn't carry the ball enough times because of some circumstance (such as the season finales in 1995-1997), go ahead.

You're still splitting hairs in the per game rushing averages for the 4 seasons in question for these backs, and Davis's 4 seasons.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:22 AM    (permalink
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Davis wasn't demoted and he wasn't part of a committee. Now you're getting it.

Davis wasn't better than all those other guys, he was just the first. Any thoughts Shanahan had about being able to get similar production from plenty of backs were just hypothetical at that point. You yourself claim that Shanahan's ego ended up hurting the Broncos towards the end by playing musical chairs with his RBs...so apparently you're acknowledging he thought the same way I do.




Wait a minute, when did this shift to "touches?" Talk about moving the goal posts.

Nobody talks about Davis because he was a great pass catcher, so there's really not much point in discussing it.



Huh?

Davis accumulated 6413 yards and 56 TDs in those 4 years.

All the backs' numbers you came up with total 11,130 yards and 78 TDs. That's WAY more.

And your definition of a "season" is pretty funny.

Gary played in 1 game in 2000. He played in 9 games in 2001.

Tatum Bell played in 7 games in 2008.

Mike Bell played in 5 games in 2007.

Selvin Young played in 8 games in 2008.






Your argument doesn't even make sense.



They didn't have 9 combined years. What a joke that you'd attempt more of this garbage.

Droughns was only the starting RB for 12 games in Denver. That's about 1 season. The only season worth talking about. Olandis Gary also had about another 1 season (1999) with 12 games. The next year, he opened the season with 13 for 80 before blowing out his knee.

Mike Anderson had ~ 28 starts at RB in 2000 and 2005. His starts at FB are meaningless in this discussion.

Anderson split carries with Tatum Bell in 2005, to the tune of Bell posting 921 yards and 8 TDs in the same season. You have to include Bell with Anderson in 2005 to get a "feature RB season." It's only logical.

All in all, the 4 of them combined for about 4 seasons as a starting RB, with some missed starts. Gary with his 1999 season, Anderson with his 2000 season, Anderson and Bell combined for the 2005 season, and Droughns with his 2004 season.

And the numbers turn out fairly close, especially when you see that Davis had more games to do it.

And I refuse to count playoff numbers in this discussion. A team has to get to the playoffs in order for a back to have a chance to put them up.

Davis, Terrell:

61 games: 6413 yards, 56 TDs. 4.8 yards/carry. 105.1 yards/game.


Gary, Anderson, Droughns, Anderson/Bell: 52 games, 5788 yards, 48 TDs, 4.6 yards/carry. 111.3 yards.game.


I took out 33 yards from their totals because I removed a game in 2000 in which Anderson ran 1 time for 3 years, and 2 games where Droughns totaled 30 yards on a total of 10 carries before he replaced Quentin Griffin in the starting lineup in 2004.

If you wish to remove a couple games from Davis's career where he didn't carry the ball enough times because of some circumstance (such as the season finales in 1995-1997), go ahead.

You're still splitting hairs in the per game rushing averages for the 4 seasons in question for these backs, and Davis's 4 seasons.
Ah, the context you're supposed to use for stats when yelling about career tallys. Things like snaps played, role in offense, etc....An extremely foreign concept to the people on this board.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:28 AM    (permalink
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What a strange coincidence you two agree with each other and respond rather rapidly for a later time in the night depending on your time zone
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:36 AM    (permalink
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What a strange coincidence you two agree with each other and respond rather rapidly for a later time in the night depending on your time zone
Yeah, because we don't know each other and converse about internet forums at all.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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What a strange coincidence you two agree with each other and respond rather rapidly for a later time in the night depending on your time zone
Post is off topic, has nothing to do with football in the slightest.

I believe this is what we call "trolling".
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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4 minutes to sign on and off from your accounts nice one
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitansCJftw View Post
4 minutes to sign on and off from your accounts nice one
That makes it 2 trolling posts, lol.

How much further can ya go guy?

Anyways, your post is full of fail because both of us are signed in currently.

2/10.

Last edited by HypocrisyIsGreat : 01-09-2013 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:02 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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If you polled all NFL GMs and HCs and gave them your premise that TD was a 'fraud' RB and strictly a product of Mike SHanahan's offense, what do you think they would say??

That's why this debate is kind of like a Twilight Zone episode.
The argument is provocative, but it's not really rock solid.

Did Terrell Davis play in a RB friendly offense?? Yes.
Why was it 'RB friendly'?? Because the ZBS allows a runner to be totally instinctive and use his vision to find cutback lanes/holes and run to daylight.

Would every RB be dominant in this system?? No, because not every RB has great run instincts, in the say way that all WRs don't have great deep ball skills or reliable hands in traffic.

You would think if Davis was a dime-a-dozen RB, Shanny would have found one just like him or better by now. He never has.

Players who are very difficult to replace are usually uncommon players, not frauds or system athletes.

Not one of the RBs that came after TD was on his level. Why is that??
They either lacked the toughness/durability, or his overall run skills.

Unless you're arguing the RBs who played in Denver after TD left were equal or better than TD, there really has been no compelling argument IMO that TD was a fraud.

What Shanny has done through his success running his ZBS is that RBs league wide have become devalued, not because there are no good RBs but because there are statistically so many good ones who don't carry a round 1 draft grade.

1000+ yard RBs can be found in almost every draft in any round. Shanny has taught other NFL GMs and HCs that you should never overcoach a RB and ideally you give him the ball and let him do his thing.

The way TD's detractors are arguing, you would think Davis got the ball and routinely ran 10 yards untouched through the middle of Denvers' Oline.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:40 AM    (permalink
BigBanger
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Davis wasn't demoted and he wasn't part of a committee. Now you're getting it.

Davis wasn't better than all those other guys, he was just the first. Any thoughts Shanahan had about being able to get similar production from plenty of backs were just hypothetical at that point. You yourself claim that Shanahan's ego ended up hurting the Broncos towards the end by playing musical chairs with his RBs...so apparently you're acknowledging he thought the same way I do.
Again, the reading thing, you suck at it. I've said it time and time again that Shanahan has a GREAT system. Maybe if I put it in bold and capitalize it you will take notice this time. I've called him one of the best offensive minds in the NFL. Should I put that in bold? His eye for defensive talent? Pretty terrible, and it's the only reason why he hasn't found success without Elway and Davis orchestrating an unstoppable offense.

Quote:
Wait a minute, when did this shift to "touches?" Talk about moving the goal posts.

Nobody talks about Davis because he was a great pass catcher, so there's really not much point in discussing it.
Well he has more career receiving yards than Olandis Gary, Mike Bell, Selvin Young and Reuben Droughns had rushing yards while they were in the Broncos system. Pretty weird huh?

But, yeah, let's act like his 1,300+ receiving yards never happened.


Quote:
And your definition of a "season" is pretty funny.

Gary played in 1 game in 2000. He played in 9 games in 2001.

Tatum Bell played in 7 games in 2008.

Mike Bell played in 5 games in 2007.

Selvin Young played in 8 games in 2008.
Guess they should have stayed healthy or earned a starting job like Davis did. You're the moron that wants to compare these guys to TD. Not me. I think it is stupid, very stupid, but you insist on claiming these guys were equals to Davis. Fact is they weren't. You are the only person in the entire world that would make this stupid argument.

Quote:
Your argument doesn't even make sense.
Stop talking.

Quote:
They didn't have 9 combined years. What a joke that you'd attempt more of this garbage.
Yeah they did.

Quote:
Mike Anderson had ~ 28 starts at RB in 2000 and 2005. His starts at FB are meaningless in this discussion.
Why? What stats do we use, Bobo? The stats that you want? Let's keep it simple and just show what they did while they were in Denver? And I'm just using Davis' first four years because what he did after that was unimportant, kinda like the careers of every running back thats followed Davis in Denver. Make sense? Keep up Mitch.

Quote:
Anderson split carries with Tatum Bell in 2005, to the tune of Bell posting 921 yards and 8 TDs in the same season. You have to include Bell with Anderson in 2005 to get a "feature RB season." It's only logical.
No. It's not. You did math earlier, for some stupid reason, so let's try some more. 1 RB plays in 2005. That's call his season. Another RB plays in 2005. That's his season. 1 + 1 = 2. 2 seasons!!!!!


Quote:
And the numbers turn out fairly close, especially when you see that Davis had more games to do it.
A bunch of guys obviously needed to have their best seasons added together and then compared to Davis's career numbers. If I take a bunch of Steelers RBs over a decade and then compared them to a four year stint of Bettis', I bet I could make Bam Morris and Barry Foster sound like better RBs, or make Bettis sound like a complete fraud. Or maybe compare them to Franco Harris. Maybe he's a fraud too. How about you start searching those stats. Hurry up. I got bed time in 30 minutes.

Quote:
And I refuse to count playoff numbers in this discussion. A team has to get to the playoffs in order for a back to have a chance to put them up.
I know that, but the postseason is very much apart of Davis' list of career accomplishments. You can cover your eyes and plug your ears and act like they never happened, but they did. Those postseason TDs happened, and they were very important. And I added post season numbers to all those guys career totals. Not just Davis. Because I am in the interest of fairness. You have an agenda: To make inferior one-hit wonders comparable to a guy that was one of the best running backs in the NFL four four straight seasons.

Quote:
I took out 33 yards from their totals because I removed a game in 2000 in which Anderson ran 1 time for 3 years, and 2 games where Droughns totaled 30 yards on a total of 10 carries before he replaced Quentin Griffin in the starting lineup in 2004.
Of course you did. Subtracting bad numbers and extrapolating good numbers. I got it. You're fudging numbers. I completely understand your technique. It's fairly stupid, that's why it's easy to understand.

Quote:
If you wish to remove a couple games from Davis's career where he didn't carry the ball enough times because of some circumstance (such as the season finales in 1995-1997), go ahead.
Don't need to subtract Davis' least productive games and make up excuses. His numbers speak for itself.
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Last edited by BigBanger : 01-09-2013 at 04:09 AM.
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