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Old 01-09-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Casting Carr and Claiborne into off-man schemes is a horrible fit to their skillsets. If we switch we definitely have to stick with a 1-gap 4-3 scheme but everyone plays that anyway except Jax.
It be bad enough taking Lee and Carter out of the ILB position in the 3-4 but if we ruin Claiborne and Carr with that weak ass off man zone coverage those tampa 2 teams run that might be the straw that broke the camels back. I'd like to venture we aren't that stupid but I'm not positive that we truly aren't.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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well what parts of the 4-3 don't we have, imo our personnel fits 4-3 better. if you keep ratliff he's better as a 3tech than a 3-4 nt and lissemore would be a better 1-tech dt than 3-4nt tackle. spencer and ware can put their hand on the ground and be ends and not not have to worry about all the reading and dropping back in coverage that you have to do as 3-4olb. lee is a perfect 4-3 mlb and carter is perfect as the wlb. crawford natural position is lde in a 4-3 they're beefing him up to be 3-4 end. hatcher could play the 3 tech or the base end and spears would be fine at the shaded nose in a 4-3 like lissemore. the only position you don't have is a slb but you can address that thru the draft or free agency or the easiest in house solution is connor or albright play that position for 2013 and you find a player to replace him in 2014. its not difficult switch at all.... your thoughts?
Well my thoughts are its not that easy to make the switch overnight. Sure we can look around the roster and field a front 7 for the 43, but fielding one and having one that works correctly is not the same thing. It would take years to build a 43 that works effectively. It's not that easy to say Ware and Spencer are pass rushers so they can fit right in as Ends, it's an entirely different position and you're rolling the dice to think they can transition smoothly. Plus, with Ware coming off surgery this offseason do you really want to expose him to the increased physicality of playing over Tackles every down? Same thing with our DL, the importance of having good players in the middle is increased and I'm not sure an over the hill Ratliff is the answer at 3T.

It would just remind me of when we first transitioned to the 3-4 under Parcells, we were trying to plug square pegs into round holes everywhere and it took a few offseasons to settle in... And that's under the guidance of 2 of the greatest 3-4 minds to ever coach.

I just don't get the decision, we were finally close to having a great D and now we have to start over.

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Old 01-09-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Were we really that close to a great D?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Were we really that close to a great D?
Weren't we one of the top defenses in the league this year when our guys were healthy? I know our secondary was, I specifically remember those posts...
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Well my thoughts are its not that easy to make the switch overnight. Sure we can look around the roster and field a front 7 for the 43, but fielding one and having one that works correctly is not the same thing. It would take years to build a 43 that works effectively. It's not that easy to say Ware and Spencer are pass rushers so they can fit right in as Ends, it's an entirely different position and you're rolling the dice to think they can transition smoothly. Plus, with Ware coming off surgery this offseason do you really want to expose him to the increased physicality of playing over Tackles every down? Same thing with our DL, the importance of having good players in the middle is increased and I'm not sure an over the hill Ratliff is the answer at 3T.

It would just remind me of when we first transitioned to the 3-4 under Parcells, we were trying to plug square pegs into round holes everywhere and it took a few offseasons to settle in... And that's under the guidance of 2 of the greatest 3-4 minds to ever coach.

I just don't get the decision, we were finally close to having a great D and now we have to start over.
My rapid response had me thinking the same as you. But I think going to the 4-3 won't be as bad as going to the 3-4 because these guys have probably been playing 4-3 their whole lives. The 3-4 was usually a new scheme for guys to pick up, so it took some time. The funny thing is I hear people preaching new promise by saying "the 4-3 will play better to our players strengths" and at the same time Rob bashing is going on and people are saying "we mostly ran the 4-3". Even Jason Garrett saying he wants a philosophical change... That's such a robotic response. I can't believe it. There must be something bigger to it than this. My only thought is he has a guy in mind who he'd rather want as DC and that's seems more emotionally based than logically based. A new DC is not gonna guarantee improvement.... then again... with a healthy squad next year, I guess you can. I have a feeling our new DC is gonna get a ton of glory.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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You sound bitter. Early in the season when guys were mostly healthy we were one of the best defenses in the league. We all watched the games. We all know that Rob did a good job despite injuries. We all know that the offense, specifically the OL was the main culprit of our woes. It seems like this post firing bashing is coming out of nowhere. Where was this passion during the season? Where was it last week? Where was it yesterday?

Everyone's last image in their minds was how Washington ran all over us. Well, they had the #1 rushing offense in the league, k. We were busted up with all kinds of injuries and we STILL had held them to just 21 points at their house and a chance to tie or win with 3 min left in the game.
i never blamed ryan for tony romo throwing the worst interception of his career to date, but i was done with rob ryan after the second philly game.

defense was better overall because the personnel was better, you had younger more athletic linebacker next to lee, no pinata at right corner, a talented rookie corner on the other side. but he didn't utilize the talent the right way. and my biggest gripe with him was he was supposed to create the defense that create confusion but the only people confused were his own players. i don't think going foward he is the type of coach that would be able to maximize his talent the correct way. the cowboys spent 50 million dollars on corner and traded way a second round pick that could have been used on the OL to draft another corner and we were dead last in interceptions.

the real true problem with the offense isn't jason garrett's playcalling it's the offensive line. whether is was jason garrett, paul chryst, norv turner, or hell even jj could down and start calling the plays. the reality of playcalling is it very subjective, because its not necessarily about what plays are called as much executing the play that was called.to have that bad of an offensive line (which ultimately falls on jerry bc he banked on bill calahan being able to turn bums into beauty queens) and some main skill players making mental mistakes (mostly dez) earlier in the season. i would definitely like to see another another oc in here,but the biggest issue with the cowboys with jason garrett as the oc/pc has been the offense always generated alot yards and time of possession but were one of the worst red zone teams and it has kept that back from achieving the efficiency that an elite offenses do.

this year that was 4-12 talent level of offensive line. and what made it worse was defense got turnovers but they also allow teams to change field position and pin an anemic offensive line backed up in the 20 constantly.

summed up in one sentence the cowboys primary issue on offense was personnel, the primary issue on defense was coordination.

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Old 01-09-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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summed up in one sentence the cowboys primary issue on offense was personnel, the primary issue on defense was coordination.
Really? I feel the exact opposite.

The defense's issue was we were playing with half a unit that we found off the street.

The offense was relatively healthy all season and has one of the best groups of skill players in the league, yet produced next to nothing in the first half week in and week out.

Take a look back at those games the first half of the season when both units were healthy, there was a common theme in almost all of them... Defense playing stout for 4 qtrs waiting around for our offense to put something together, which usually didn't happen until 3/4 of the game was over, if it even happened at all. That screams incompetence to me from a OCs standpoint.

Our offense was playing flat out bad football most of the season, we were producing the same amount of points as The Jaguars up until week 8 or 9.

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Old 01-09-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Really? I feel the exact opposite.

The defense's issue was we were playing with half a unit that we found off the street.

The offense was relatively healthy all season and has one of the best groups of skill players in the league, yet produced next to nothing in the first half week in and week out.

Take a look back at those games the first half of the season when both units were healthy, there was a common theme in almost all of them... Defense playing stout for 4 qtrs waiting around for our offense to put something together, which usually didn't happen until 3/4 of the game was over. That screams incompetence to me from a OCs standpoint.
Yup. The problem is Jerry gave Garrett security and Garrett didn't hand down the same favor to Ryan. This has nothing to do about bottom line results because Garrett's job as an OC has Cowboys nation screaming for a new OC.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Really? I feel the exact opposite.

The defense's issue was we were playing with half a unit that we found off the street.

The offense was relatively healthy all season and has one of the best groups of skill players in the league, yet produced next to nothing in the first half week in and week out.

Take a look back at those games the first half of the season when both units were healthy, there was a common theme in almost all of them... Defense playing stout for 4 qtrs waiting around for our offense to put something together, which usually didn't happen until 3/4 of the game was over, if it even happened at all. That screams incompetence to me from a OCs standpoint.

Our offense was playing flat out bad football most of the season, we were producing the same amount of points as The Jaguars up until week 8 or 9.
the cowboys were also one of the worst team in terms of starting field position, thats very much a function of the defense stopping the teams but not before they allowed them to flip the field and not forcing turnovers. and that was before the injuries became overwhelming
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowbo...ic-numbers-lie

Here's an interesting article on Ryan's defense. Stats can be manipulated many ways, but I think BEST you can say about Ryan is that he was okay. There was no where near marked improvement.

I still think this had less to do with performance and more to do with fit and attitude.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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the cowboys were also one of the worst team in terms of starting field position, thats very much a function of the defense stopping the teams but not before they allowed them to flip the field and not forcing turnovers. and that was before the injuries became overwhelming
Is it really fair to put all of the blame that the Cowboys didn't create enough turnovers on the DC? Cause we've had that problem for a loooooooooong time... Phillips, Parcells, Zimmer, how far back to we want to go? How about this far back... since Darren Woodson was here? Point being, stuff like that is on the players. Sean Lee will simply do things that Brady Poppinga won't no matter who the DC is. Sensabaugh is no Polamalu.

Playing more man than zone isn't the sure answer. Vice versa. It's on the players.

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Old 01-09-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Is it really fair to put all of the blame that the Cowboys didn't create enough turnovers on the DC? Cause we've had that problem for a loooooooooong time... Phillips, Parcells, Zimmer, how far back to we want to go? How about this far back... since Darren Woodson was here? Point being, stuff like that is on the players. Sean Lee will simply do things that Brady Poppinga won't no matter who the DC is. Sensabaugh is no Polamalu.

Playing more man than zone isn't the sure answer. Vice versa. It's on the players.
what i'm ultimately getting at is the cowboys spent the majority of their resources on getting rob ryan the players he needed to make a pressure defense that would help generate more turnovers, but instead he played bend but dont break defense instead, and you add in the fact the cowboys defense had the hardest time figuring out (maybe in all the history of organized football) which 11 guys were supposed to be on the field, maybe he's not the defensive genius he made out to be. sean lee is better than poppinga true and sensabaugh isn't polamalu but it doesnt matter if lee and sensabaugh can't figure who supposed to be in the game
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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I've been an advocate of the 4-3 defense in Dallas for 2, maybe 3 years now.

And for those saying Lovie won't play press, that's not true. Lovie actually plays more man coverage than zone. The Bears played a lot of man coverage under him.

He does put heavy emphasis on the 4 man rush though, and I'm not sure if you guys have the horses up front to run that style.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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What is on the DC is how many times this defense looked disorganized out there (which were many).

Compared to Wade, Ryan was a breath of fresh air, but he just didn't get it done. Mediocre coordinator, glad he's gone.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I've been an advocate of the 4-3 defense in Dallas for 2, maybe 3 years now.

And for those saying Lovie won't play press, that's not true. Lovie actually plays more man coverage than zone. The Bears played a lot of man coverage under him.

He does put heavy emphasis on the 4 man rush though, and I'm not sure if you guys have the horses up front to run that style.
I've always thought Ratliff would have been a much better player in a 4-3 so if he's somewhat healthy, Ware, Rat, Hatcher & Spencer rushing is not bad. Especially with Lee and Carter dropping in coverage (can really run).
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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I've always thought Ratliff would have been a much better player in a 4-3 so if he's somewhat healthy, Ware, Rat, Hatcher & Spencer rushing is not bad. Especially with Lee and Carter dropping in coverage (can really run).
You just need another pass rusher I think to make it work. I'm torn on Spencer. I get nervous about guys who play way over their head on contract years.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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You just need another pass rusher I think to make it work. I'm torn on Spencer. I get nervous about guys who play way over their head on contract years.
I don't think that Spencer played way over his head. He just played a lot more consistently this year.

I do agree, we need another pass rusher to throw in there. We would need some good depth.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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I've been an advocate of the 4-3 defense in Dallas for 2, maybe 3 years now.

And for those saying Lovie won't play press, that's not true. Lovie actually plays more man coverage than zone. The Bears played a lot of man coverage under him.

He does put heavy emphasis on the 4 man rush though, and I'm not sure if you guys have the horses up front to run that style.
We had been running the 4-3 more and more.

Problem is Ratliff is not the player he used to be. It made sense for us when he was in his prime, but the dude is just a shell of what he was. He can never stay healthy and even when he was this year, he just wasn't all that good. So why would I have hopes for him in the future? Dude's a cap cut if he can't get traded imo. It ain't 2009 anymore.

His stubborness to stay at NT was the cause of his short career. But it is what it is. Wade tried to get him to move, but he refused.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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I don't think that Spencer played way over his head. He just played a lot more consistently this year.

I do agree, we need another pass rusher to throw in there. We would need some good depth.
Yeah, that's nicely said. If Spencer had the kind of break out year that just dropped your jaw, then that would be one thing. But he pretty much stayed in his lane and tightened up a few things that made him a better player. The consistency was there game to game and that matters imo. It wasn't just flashes here and there.

...and I've been a BIG Spencer hater in the past.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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There's talk that the organization loves Albright. He's got position versatility and could prob play DE.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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There's talk that the organization loves Albright. He's got position versatility and could prob play DE.
I mentioned this a couple of weaks ago in the tweets Broaddus put up. He legit though Albright has starter quality talent in a jack of all master of none type of role. I actually think he is a better fit for linebacker even if we move to the 4-3, think a jumbo backer like Kiwanuka.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/...lease-rob-ryan

Not sure of you guys saw this, it's Jerry talking about why he fired Rob.

He goes on and on about the Chicago and Seattle games and how they were the straw that broke the camels back for him on the D. I'm not sure what in the hell he was watching though, because as we all know against Chicago Romo tossed up 5 Picks and 2 were ran back for TDs and against Seattle 2 early turnovers on special teams put us in a 10-0 hole in the first few minutes of the game.

Maybe he's mad Rob didn't make a better effort tackling Lance Briggs or Charles Tillman on their way to the end zone

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Old 01-09-2013, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/...lease-rob-ryan

Not sure of you guys saw this, it's Jerry talking about why he fired Rob.

He goes on and on about the Chicago and Seattle games and how they were the straw that broke the camels back for him on the D. I'm not sure what in the hell he was watching though, because as we all know against Chicago Romo tossed up 5 Picks and 2 were ran back for TDs and against Seattle 2 early turnovers on special teams put us in a 10-0 hole in the first few minutes of the game.

Maybe he's mad Rob didn't make a better effort tackling Lance Briggs or Charles Tillman on their way to the end zone
i know what jerry is saying he just did a poor job of explaining it. what i think he meant was he spent alot money and premium draft to get the players for rob ryan said he needed to make this defense into an elite defense. watching those games there was clear difference between our defense and seattle's and chicago's. our defense was solid overall but they weren't ever gamechanging defense at all this season. if you look at the overall talent level there's not a significant difference in the talent level between our defense and chi or seattle but their defense were light years ahead of ours. and when you spend 50 million in free agency and if you count the second round pick we traded away we spent the first five picks in the draft on defense he was expecting better results than solid overall

and im sure watching mike shanahan and andy reid play rob ryan like a fiddle for the last two years mad the decision even easier

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Old 01-09-2013, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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i know what jerry is saying he just did a poor job of explaining it. what i think he meant was he spent alot money and premium draft to get the players for rob ryan said he needed to make this defense into an elite defense. watching those games there was clear difference between our defense and seattle's and chicago's.
Hard to tell, not sure if the difference was their defense being elite... seemed more like our offense/ST self destructing.

In all seriousness though, I know you saw how often our D was left out to dry this year. I remember reading we led the league in forced 3 and outs at one point, I think it was after the ATL game, but we were also dead last in the league in 1st half ppg.

At some point Garrett and his offense will have to answer for their inconsistencies, stat padding passing yards in garbage time won't save him next year.

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Old 01-09-2013, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Hard to tell, not sure if the difference was their defense being elite... seemed more like our offense/ST self destructing.
chicago offense line was as bad our's and they have less skill talent yet they got to 9-1 why their defense. u can say our defense kept the game close but name me one time the defense made any game changing plays to actually win games

our defense avg starting field position was 11th in the nfl yet the offenses average starting position was 19th and we were 27th in takeaways and most of those happened after all the injuries.
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