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Old 01-10-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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I think from a philosophical standpoint, our approach to defense has been flawed in some ways.

We built our defense outside in. Heavy emphasis on DEs and CBs. In a passing league, this makes sense.

However, we have pretty much completely ignored the middle of the defense. No linebackers, no DTs. I have no problem with the outside in approach, but there has to be SOME investment inside.

Our lack of investment to the middle of our defense is why we are such a poor tackling defense, and why we're not good against the run.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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I don't think we've completely ignored the middle. We drafted LJ high and signed Canty to a huge contract. The depth at DT is what hurt. It's pretty much impossible to have good depth everywhere on the team though.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Plus a first round pick on Kenny and a big contract for Rolle. We've really just neglected LB and even there we paid up for Boley and AP before him.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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And I have no problem with that. I think you can get away with 3 good DTs on the roster. The problem is, right now we have 1 good DT in Joseph who's contract is coming up, an aging Canty who might get cut bc of his salary, and a bust draft pick in Marvin Austin.

We didn't do a good enough job of replenishing our rotation. Busts will hurt you and Marvin Austin hurt us in this situation.

And we just don't do a good job of drafting linebackers or identifying ones that should get drafted. Think about how many good linebackers we passed on in the draft for mediocre talent elsewhere.

Whatever the reason may be, I think this draft does need to focus on the middle of the defense. It just has to. Our depth in the middle is severely lacking.

Now if a great DE prospect is available, I'm all for it, bc I believe our pass rush is what makes our defense tick. If a supreme CB is available, fine, let's do it. Can never have too many of those.

But if neither are on the board, and there isn't a OLmen on the board who is BPA, then we better go after a LB or DT with our pick bc we desperately need them.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Plus a first round pick on Kenny and a big contract for Rolle. We've really just neglected LB and even there we paid up for Boley and AP before him.
I consider them outside players. DBs are outside players.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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That's the thing though LB gets neglected cause there's and always will be higher priorities. Right now it's our lack of tackles, the coming transition at DE, replacing Corey and our aging and unspectacular OL. If equal prospects we need to fill those positions before we can grab a LB.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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1. Jordan/Ansah
2. Ryan (if he runs 4.5)
3. Gerald Hodges
4. OG

Boom.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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1. Jordan/Ansah
2. Ryan (if he runs 4.5)
3. Gerald Hodges
4. OG

Boom.
And what sign Dorsey on top of resigning Joseph and keeping Canty?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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And what sign Dorsey on top of resigning Joseph and keeping Canty?
Where's the money gonna come from? The sky?
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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Where's the money gonna come from? The sky?
Exactly my point. Even in your best case for taking a LB scenario we end up ****** at DT.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Exactly my point. Even in your best case for taking a LB scenario we end up ****** at DT.
Dorsey is **** to begin with. I don't care if he was a high draft pick 5 years ago.

We just need able bodies at DT who can stuff the run. Cheap bodies can be found.

Now ideally I want a great DT bc we need to clean up the middle, I agree with you there. But the bust rate for DTs scare me. And I really think LB can't be ignored any longer.

So if I have a choice btw LB or DT, I'm taking LB, which is going against my general philosophy. But I'm just tired of passing on linebackers.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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We need both DTs and LBs. I just get scared of drafting DTs bc of the bust rate.

And for what it's worth, I think in general DTs don't impact the game. There's maybe 4 or 5 DTs in the entire league that impact the game. The rest are lane cloggers for the most part.

A LB impacts the game more. Especially when we take our DTs off the field on 3rd down.

I understand the need for a DT, but I don't want to spend a high draft pick on one. I think it's a diminishing return.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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We need both DTs and LBs. I just get scared of drafting DTs bc of the bust rate.

And for what it's worth, I think in general DTs don't impact the game. There's maybe 4 or 5 DTs in the entire league that impact the game. The rest are lane cloggers for the most part.

A LB impacts the game more. Especially when we take our DTs off the field on 3rd down.

I understand the need for a DT, but I don't want to spend a high draft pick on one. I think it's a diminishing return.
I completely agree with this, but unless we get a top pick LB, he'll be riding the bench the entire year.

The whole sit and learn for a year is great when we don't have holes to plug, but right now we have a ton.

I wish there was an Antonio Pierce we could sign to man the middle for us, but the options just aren't out there.

Thats why I'd be ok with a DE, CB or OL first round.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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I completely agree with this, but unless we get a top pick LB, he'll be riding the bench the entire year.

The whole sit and learn for a year is great when we don't have holes to plug, but right now we have a ton.

I wish there was an Antonio Pierce we could sign to man the middle for us, but the options just aren't out there.

Thats why I'd be ok with a DE, CB or OL first round.
I think part of the reason why we had guys sit and learn is because we had the luxury to allow them that opportunity. For a long while we were one of the deeper teams in the league.

But we don't have that luxury in certain positions, and I think they would play more given our circumstances. Look at 07, our rookies had immediate impact bc we needed them to.

Also, you never draft a player for 1 year. Every player you draft has to be a long term decision. If LB is there and he's a great player, take him. Who cares if he sits a year, he'll start the next year.

Look at David Wilson. He sat this year. But he'll play significant minutes this coming season, and pretty much wipes RB off the board. Same with Randle. If we don't draft those 2 last year, RB and WR are needs this year. If we don't draft a LB bc we're afraid of him sitting, then it will always be a need and will never be solved bc we keep pushing it out of the picture.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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I think part of the reason why we had guys sit and learn is because we had the luxury to allow them that opportunity. For a long while we were one of the deeper teams in the league.

But we don't have that luxury in certain positions, and I think they would play more given our circumstances. Look at 07, our rookies had immediate impact bc we needed them to.

Also, you never draft a player for 1 year. Every player you draft has to be a long term decision. If LB is there and he's a great player, take him. Who cares if he sits a year, he'll start the next year.

Look at David Wilson. He sat this year. But he'll play significant minutes this coming season, and pretty much wipes RB off the board. Same with Randle. If we don't draft those 2 last year, RB and WR are needs this year. If we don't draft a LB bc we're afraid of him sitting, then it will always be a need and will never be solved bc we keep pushing it out of the picture.
I'm not saying don't draft a LB, I'm saying don't draft a LB in the first. 07 Ross played, but only after a multitude of injuries, hell, we had RW playing back there for a while that year.

For the pub that draft class got, only Bradshaw and DeOssie are still on the team and one or both may be cut this offseason.

Wilson barely played this year even with 3 RBs down. I hate the pass protection excuse, I saw Bradshaw miss plenty of blocks and stay in.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying don't draft a LB, I'm saying don't draft a LB in the first. 07 Ross played, but only after a multitude of injuries, hell, we had RW playing back there for a while that year.

For the pub that draft class got, only Bradshaw and DeOssie are still on the team and one or both may be cut this offseason.

Wilson barely played this year even with 3 RBs down. I hate the pass protection excuse, I saw Bradshaw miss plenty of blocks and stay in.
The average career in the NFL is like 3 years. I'm not surprised only 2 of them remain on the team. Bradshaw's career is almost over and he only played 5 years. Think about it.

I don't see the problem with taking a LB in the first if he's BPA. Why not? The only guy I see as a 1st round grade LB at the moment is Teo, and he might be available.

I still haven't figured out how I feel about Teo. I need to really sit down and look at him. I do remember when I was scouting last year, I was significantly more impressed with Keuchly vs Teo. But Luke was a beast. He was perfect.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Haha BBD, weren't you raving about our linebacker position before the start of the season?

That's something I never understood. I don't know how people look at our linebacker situation and thought we were stacked. I thought we had a bunch of average to below average players so for me this is not a shock after this season.

My philosophy is with linebackers: unless you're getting a stud LB don't bother drafting them in the first two rounds. Wasted pick that can be addressed later in the draft or via free agency. I truly believe a LB can only have so much of an impact.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Haha BBD, weren't you raving about our linebacker position before the start of the season?

That's something I never understood. I don't know how people look at our linebacker situation and thought we were stacked. I thought we had a bunch of average to below average players so for me this is not a shock after this season.

My philosophy is with linebackers: unless you're getting a stud LB don't bother drafting them in the first two rounds. Wasted pick that can be addressed later in the draft or via free agency. I truly believe a LB can only have so much of an impact.
I did think we had great depth but I was wrong. I was hoping Herzlich would pan out, but it's clear to me now that he's a career backup at best, Boley has regressed, and Paysinger is average. If Herzlich panned out I'd still feel good about it bc we'd have JWill and Herz as the future, but right now we just have JWill. That's it.

Ideally I want 2 linebackers but realistically I just want a middle linebacker, and I want JWill to start.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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It sounds like some of these OL prospects are staying in college, which weakens the group. Will be interesting to see if a very good one falls to 19 anymore.

I'm really hoping Jordan or Ansah fall to 19 right now. I'm less confident in Ansah right now vs Jordan. Jordan would be a no brainer to me from what I've seen so far.

If we can go DE in round 1, LB in round 2, OT or OG round 3 and DT in round 4 I'd be a happy camper.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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It sounds like some of these OL prospects are staying in college, which weakens the group. Will be interesting to see if a very good one falls to 19 anymore.

I'm really hoping Jordan or Ansah fall to 19 right now. I'm less confident in Ansah right now vs Jordan. Jordan would be a no brainer to me from what I've seen so far.

If we can go DE in round 1, LB in round 2, OT or OG round 3 and DT in round 4 I'd be a happy camper.
Ansah to me looks like the perfect Tuck replacement. He's supposed to have a great head on his shoulders, he's a powerful, long armed kid, with great understanding of how to use his hands. Would make a great LE opposite JPP who can kick inside in passing situations for Kiwi to come on.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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Isn't Dion Jordan more of a 3-4 OLB?
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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He's such a great athlete he could be, but he's so long and has a good frame on him to add a little weight and play 4-3 DE with no problems cause he's strong, even at this lighter weight.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Depends on what he weighs at the combine. I can easily see him get to 260 lbs. He's listed at 245 right now, but 260 would be so easy for him. He has no base, he just has to put mass on his lower body and he can easily get to 260, his frame can handle 270 but you want to keep him around 260 so he doesn't lose any speed.

If we drafted Jordan he'd probably play RE and we'd move JPP to LE long term.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:46 AM    (permalink
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Depends on what he weighs at the combine. I can easily see him get to 260 lbs. He's listed at 245 right now, but 260 would be so easy for him. He has no base, he just has to put mass on his lower body and he can easily get to 260, his frame can handle 270 but you want to keep him around 260 so he doesn't lose any speed.

If we drafted Jordan he'd probably play RE and we'd move JPP to LE long term.
I'd rather keep JPP at RE. He's much more effective on the right side, and we can find someone who plays LE in the draft.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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I think Ansah can play anywhere. RE, LE, inside or out. 3-4 or 4-3. He's extremely versatile. I actually think he makes a better LE to be honest.
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