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Old 01-10-2013, 02:08 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I think you guys are selling Kiffin short though. He's a HOF caliber DC (if coordinators were allowed in the Hall). Yes he's old as dirt, but his resume speaks for itself.

Look at how Tampa's defense fell apart when he left. Sometimes it goes beyond the Xs and Os.
If this goes down, I have no choice to hope for the best. But even Lovie transformed his defense from what they ran in Tampa.

Who runs it still? Minnesota?
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I think you guys are selling Kiffin short though. He's a HOF caliber DC (if coordinators were allowed in the Hall). Yes he's old as dirt, but his resume speaks for itself.

Look at how Tampa's defense fell apart when he left. Sometimes it goes beyond the Xs and Os.
This. Tampa 2 doesn't fit our corners at all but both Carr and Claiborne will have no problems playing in it. It fits Sensabaugh MUCH better. It fits Bruce Carter and Sean Lee to a freaking T. It allows us to not resign Anthony Spencer and Victor Butler. Heck we could bring back Ernie Sims if we are switching to Tampa 2.

Tampa 2 doesn't have to be as stagnant as some portray it either. I'm NOT a fan at all given Carr/Claiborne being the future cornerstones of the defense. That being said there are plenty of situations where in Cover 2 defenders are asked to press/bump so you can certainly tailor the scheme to our defense.

That being said if the goal is to create turnovers it should happen. Zone schemes will ALWAYS provide more turnovers than man packages. If anything the switch is going to ask A LOT of our linebackers which in all honesty is exactly where we need it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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If this goes down, I have no choice to hope for the best. But even Lovie transformed his defense from what they ran in Tampa.

Who runs it still? Minnesota?
Nobody. Pure Tampa 2 is dead. Kiffin won't run a pure Tampa 2 either.

Honestly, in today's NFL every team runs the same ****. Everybody uses the same concepts on defense for the most part, most offensive concepts are the same too.

Some teams will just use 1 concept more than others, and thus you have different "schemes"

But switching to Kiffin and a 4-3 won't mean you magically stop blitzing or playing man coverage. That will still happen. Just not as often.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Not sure where you're getting the idea that the Cowboys had the #1 defense in Wade's first year. #1 in what? The regular season was great, 13-3. The offense was awesome too. #2 in points and #3 in yards.

There really is no sense in arguing using stats as reference though. It goes both ways and they all have an effect on one another. You can't use stats to blame the offense for not scoring if the defense can't get them the ball back... and you can't use stats to blame the defense, if the offense turns the ball over all the time. This past year both the offense and the defense looked good at times and idiotic at times. The bottom line is that the firing of Rob wasn't based on results or his relationship with the players gone sour. It was a personnel indifference issue between HC and DC.
ive must have misstyped he transformed houston defense from 32 to # 1 in one year
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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It fits Bruce Carter and Sean Lee to a freaking T. .
Can you expand on this? Not saying it's not true, but curious how this is the case. I would have more then likely said the 3-4 fits those guys to a T due to the fact that Sean Lee was looking like he was the best LB in football while playing and Bruce Carter broke out in a serious way.


We also need to remember we get less turnovers when Sean Lee isn't in the game. It's like expecting Chicago to create as many forced fumbles without Charles Tillman. He's a magnet for the ball and always creates a play, we just can't lose him and expect somebody else to create them in the same manner.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Can you expand on this? Not saying it's not true, but curious how this is the case. I would have more then likely said the 3-4 fits those guys to a T due to the fact that Sean Lee was looking like he was the best LB in football while playing and Bruce Carter broke out in a serious way.


We also need to remember we get less turnovers when Sean Lee isn't in the game. It's like expecting Chicago to create as many forced fumbles without Charles Tillman. He's a magnet for the ball and always creates a play, we just can't lose him and expect somebody else to create them in the same manner.
Exactly. Putting him in the middle of the field with two DTs in front of him will save him quite a bit. Lee has arguably the best instincts at MLB than any other player in the NFL so his diagnosis of run/pass is by itself going to lend nicely to turnovers.

On the flip side putting Carter on the weak side behind Ware lets him show off his best asset (speed and quickness). He also showed the knack for diagnosis but Carter is an excellent blitzer. Carter can handle manning up on TEs/RBs and by placing him weak-side you will be asking him to blitz often which I see as a major strength. Carter could also man the spot he manned in college (Sam) which would allow him to play more coverage and read-and-diagnose in the running game.

Personally I would fully understand if we are doing this for cap reasons too. We can't afford Spencer and probably Ratliff so transitioning with the rest of our roster makes the alignment much cheaper.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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It's funny the reaction of most of you to Kiffin.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. Putting him in the middle of the field with two DTs in front of him will save him quite a bit. Lee has arguably the best instincts at MLB than any other player in the NFL so his diagnosis of run/pass is by itself going to lend nicely to turnovers.

On the flip side putting Carter on the weak side behind Ware lets him show off his best asset (speed and quickness). He also showed the knack for diagnosis but Carter is an excellent blitzer. Carter can handle manning up on TEs/RBs and by placing him weak-side you will be asking him to blitz often which I see as a major strength. Carter could also man the spot he manned in college (Sam) which would allow him to play more coverage and read-and-diagnose in the running game.

Personally I would fully understand if we are doing this for cap reasons too. We can't afford Spencer and probably Ratliff so transitioning with the rest of our roster makes the alignment much cheaper.

I can see that. Personally I'm more worried about our CB's then those two, it is just scary to see two young studs coming into their own like Lee and Carter then change the defense and just assume it'll continue without any struggles. I hope, but I'm not sure. And maybe we fit Spencer if we make some cuts and/or restructures(Austin, Ratliff, Free), maybe not...I just know for two years now I've felt Spencer was going to go to a 4-3 team and play better there then for us, would hate to not see him get a shot to play strongside LE because he's been had the tools and body for it.


If we have to replace him, and find a few DT's, and another Safety, with offensive line help on the interior, it's going to be a long off-season. Also hate that Ware is likely out until August for the first time when it'd be nice for him to get the reps.


I just hate Cover 2, with a passion. I'd be all for an agressive 4-3 man scheme like Atlanta runs, or a hybrid like NE that mixes a bunch of zone in, but you won't find too many who hate Cover 2 more then me. So it'll take a lot for me to get excited. I mean, if we were bringing Lovie in to run it, sure. He's a HC candidate, and if he took a DC job here he'd make sure it was run exceedingly well even if for a year so he can continue to search for a HC job, but like D said Kiffin left a bad taste in my mouth at USC and I wasn't a fan of how he played his CB's at all in Tampa.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Just realized something. We have a gem of a 4-3 OLB sitting on our bench. Kyle Wilber. He projected better IMHO to a 4-3 OLB than a rusher backer in the 3-4 anyhow.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Can you expand on this? Not saying it's not true, but curious how this is the case. I would have more then likely said the 3-4 fits those guys to a T due to the fact that Sean Lee was looking like he was the best LB in football while playing and Bruce Carter broke out in a serious way.
All I know is we bulked them up to take on blockers better and now we need them to slim down and speed 'em up. The fact that they are good players makes it less concerning but they aren't my main concern.

I'm not sure how Sensy is perfect for it, but I'm open to hearing that. He doesn't cover well or hit amazingly well either. He's a good wrap up tackler when he's in position, but he's too often out of position.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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I can see that. Personally I'm more worried about our CB's then those two, it is just scary to see two young studs coming into their own like Lee and Carter then change the defense and just assume it'll continue without any struggles. I hope, but I'm not sure. And maybe we fit Spencer if we make some cuts and/or restructures(Austin, Ratliff, Free), maybe not...I just know for two years now I've felt Spencer was going to go to a 4-3 team and play better there then for us, would hate to not see him get a shot to play strongside LE because he's been had the tools and body for it.


If we have to replace him, and find a few DT's, and another Safety, with offensive line help on the interior, it's going to be a long off-season. Also hate that Ware is likely out until August for the first time when it'd be nice for him to get the reps.


I just hate Cover 2, with a passion. I'd be all for an agressive 4-3 man scheme like Atlanta runs, or a hybrid like NE that mixes a bunch of zone in, but you won't find too many who hate Cover 2 more then me. So it'll take a lot for me to get excited. I mean, if we were bringing Lovie in to run it, sure. He's a HC candidate, and if he took a DC job here he'd make sure it was run exceedingly well even if for a year so he can continue to search for a HC job, but like D said Kiffin left a bad taste in my mouth at USC and I wasn't a fan of how he played his CB's at all in Tampa.
You hit it. For all these years we were saying Spencer would be a better fit for a 4-3 team. Now we're doing it and letting him go? wop wop wop
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to leave Lee around the LOS, he's at his best when he's allowed to sift through the garbage and find the ball carrier. If you leave him at Mike in a traditional Tampa 2 you're gonna take that away from him.

You're Mike is the middle runner, and what that basically means is his zone is stretched into the middle third. He will have the deep pass responsibilities of a safety. Tampa 2 is not a cover 2, it's really a cover 3. Two deep safeties spliting the field, but they're cheated toward the boundary... so to make up for that your Mike's zone is cheated deeper so he can make up for that soft spot.

The reason I would rather slide Lee outside is because Mike's in the Tampa 2 are taught pass first, run second... because if you're late in your pass drop it's gonna be a homerun, if you're late in your run read there is a much lower chance of a big play because guys can still rally to the ball. I want Lee to be able to stay aggressive against the run and not have to be worrying about screaming out into his drop. Especially since he's not an elite athlete to begin with.

Drafting a guy like Ogletree from Georgia would be an ideal fit at Mike, you need your Mike to be able to run like a deer. Pre-injury Brian Urlacher was the poster boy mike for the T2... Dude was a freak in coverage when he first came into the league.

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Old 01-10-2013, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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All I know is we bulked them up to take on blockers better and now we need them to slim down and speed 'em up. The fact that they are good players makes it less concerning but they aren't my main concern.

I'm not sure how Sensy is perfect for it, but I'm open to hearing that. He doesn't cover well or hit amazingly well either. He's a good wrap up tackler when he's in position, but he's too often out of position.
Agreed on the weight fluctuations.

I'm saying in the sense that Cover-2/3 you are asking Sensy to keep eyes front and play deep zone. He's a MUCH better playing moving forward than he is when playing man tight with a receiver. Best example I can remember was that deep ball to Sidney Rice a few years ago against the Vikings where Sensabaugh never turned around if he had it would of been an INT.

He certainly isn't a power hitter but he can bring the lumber :)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fyJigqa7eI[/media]

I do agree that he is out-of-position quite a bit but there isn't a scheme out there to protect against that. :/
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to leave Lee around the LOS, he's at his best when he's allowed to sift through the garbage and find the ball carrier. If you leave him at Mike in a traditional Tampa 2 you're gonna take that away from him.

You're Mike is the middle runner, and what that basically means is his zone is stretched into the middle third. He will have the deep pass responsibilities of a safety. Tampa 2 is not a cover 2, it's really a cover 3. Two deep safeties spliting the field, but they're cheated toward the boundary... so to make up for that your Mike's zone is cheated deeper so he can make up for that soft spot.

The reason I would rather slide Lee outside is because Mike's in the Tampa 2 are taught pass first, run second... because if you're late in your pass drop it's gonna be a homerun, if you're late in your run read there is a much lower chance of a big play because guys can still rally to the ball. I want Lee to be able to stay aggressive against the run and not have to be worrying about screaming out into his drop. Especially since he's not an elite athlete to begin with.
I agree. I hadn't said it earlier, but I thought Carter would be better suited skillset wise to be the Mike and Lee at Sam for the exact reasons you noted. Carter's experience as a Safety in college and his cover skills were reasons we drafted him.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Agreed on the weight fluctuations.

I'm saying in the sense that Cover-2/3 you are asking Sensy to keep eyes front and play deep zone. He's a MUCH better playing moving forward than he is when playing man tight with a receiver. Best example I can remember was that deep ball to Sidney Rice a few years ago against the Vikings where Sensabaugh never turned around if he had it would of been an INT.

He certainly isn't a power hitter but he can bring the lumber :)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fyJigqa7eI[/media]

I do agree that he is out-of-position quite a bit but there isn't a scheme out there to protect against that. :/
Yeah, Sensy is too brittle anyways. If we do this, I would look to cut him. Bring me my love, DJ Swearinger. THAT's a guy who would fit this defense to a T.

Good post from the main board.

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See the 2009 Super Bowl for a reason why no one runs it as a base D anymore. Great (or even just good) QBs will rape it, running teams will wear it down. It is easy to find holes in the zone coverage and keep moving the chains. The result is long-ass drives that tire the defense out (which means more injuries, especially if they're undersized fast players) and gives your teams' offense few opportunities to score. It makes sense to use some of the concepts of it, but unless you have the talent to really run it effectively (which means stud DL so you can rush 4 only, stud MLB, super-athletic WLB, disciplined SLB that can cover and set the edge, durable and tough corners that can make plays on the ball and support run D, an enforcer at SS, and a ball-hawking FS), you'll get picked apart or run into the ground.

There was a stupid theory out there that the Colts ran the Tampa 2 because it was an easy plug-and-play defense, and the Colts didn't have the money for a more exotic defense. Well that is crap. If anything you need more top-end defensive players for it to be effective. As evidenced by all the great players on those old Bucs teams.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Yeah, Sensy is too brittle anyways. If we do this, I would look to cut him. Bring me my love, DJ Swearinger. THAT's a guy who would fit this defense to a T.
:) I'm cutting him in my offseason mock either way. Matt Johnson can either get healthy or have one of the many talented safeties in this draft pass him by.

I like Swearinger too although my man-crush is still Vaccaro by a mile. Granted Cover-2 would take away one of my favorite attributes (man-to-man) that he brings :/



I'm following that convo on the main board too xD :)
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:59 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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:) I'm cutting him in my offseason mock either way. Matt Johnson can either get healthy or have one of the many talented safeties in this draft pass him by.

I like Swearinger too although my man-crush is still Vaccaro by a mile. Granted Cover-2 would take away one of my favorite attributes (man-to-man) that he brings :/



I'm following that convo on the main board too xD :)
My head is spinnin' today.

In the end... this is all "fun" stuff to talk about. Nothing the Cowboys do is gonna surprise me after this. Just makes it tougher to swallow.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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I agree. I hadn't said it earlier, but I thought Carter would be better suited skillset wise to be the Mike and Lee at Sam for the exact reasons you noted. Carter's experience as a Safety in college and his cover skills were reasons we drafted him.
lee has better instincts and played mlb at penn state that where he is best, carter was the will backer in college. lee might be the best zone drop linebacker in nfl in ur running a tampa 2 your gonna wanna guy who's a great getting depth to cover the middle third
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
Witten4HOF
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The corners are not an issue at all in the Tampa two. I mentioned this when I brought up the idea the other day that you can still play press man within the scheme. Lovie used Tillman in press situations all year allowing him to be physical at the LOS to disguise whether it was a man or zone look. The way we played the scheme is highschool was one corner always has man coverage while the other showed the same press look but dropped into a shallow zone. Depending on the call the safties would shade into the zone coverage closing gaps in coverage. We would alternate through out the game to keep the offense off balance and had plays in place that were completely man outside or zone blitz looks.

Zone Coverage Creates turnovers and I think this style of play could benefit Claiborne going further. Like I said above he can still be physical and hover at the LOS but has the luxary of eyeing the QB. His best trait coming out was his ball skills and in Zone he has the ability to watch the ball and attack it in the air. The beauty of having corners that can actually cover is that the Play caller has the choice to match best on best if need be and zone around that coverage.

What does change dramtically is how we employ our linebackers and safeties. The safties are almost exlusively used in deep zone looks and are not forced to cover tight ends or backs in man coverage. That responsbility goes to the outside linebackers and where speed comes into play. That is why I said that a bulked up Bruce Carter is a nice fit for SOLB in this scheme. He is still naturally athletic but has some size to bang around with tightends down field and has proved he can sort through the trash at the LOS against the run. On the weakside we need another athlete, I think a nice start would be resigning Sims to a new contract. Then we can go into the draft and get someone to compete with him for the starting position. Khaseem Green of Rutgers would be a perfect fit in the second round. He is a little undersized but his range is excellent and has experience playing in coverage being a converted safety. Another route the team could go is moving Barry Church to weakside LB, Sensy to SS and finally drafting a true free safety. Sensy is an excellent fit for SS because he can play over top and use his length and Vert leap ( which is still a combine record I think) to cut off ball down the field. This team desperately needs a ball hawk with range at FS imo to give QB's second thoughts about launching the ball deep down field.

Sean Lee is a really nice fit for the middle in this scheme, he has already proved that he is excellent at reacting the the play. Not only that he is fluid in zone coverage and has shown to be able to cause turnovers in the open field. He can come up and support the run one play or bail into the cover 3 look in the mid center coverage and be just as effective.

The problem with this scheme for our personel is going to be the d-line. The Tampa two is designed around the ability to pressure with your down four lineman. There is still a big question mark around Ratliff who would still be a NT in the Tampa imo. He has the ability to jam up the run and face the double team and still make an impact when healthy. Lissemore would make a nice back up NT, I'm not sure how Hatcher fits in, Crawford could potentially be a 3-tech but is really raw in terms of pass rush. We need an elite type rusher from the inside to be effective and those types of players go earlyand often in the draft. We also need to see what the status on resigning Spencer will be but if he is back I think he will do just fine as LE and Albright is a nice reserve.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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The problem with this scheme for our personel is going to be the d-line. The Tampa two is designed around the ability to pressure with your down four lineman. There is still a big question mark around Ratliff who would still be a NT in the Tampa imo. He has the ability to jam up the run and face the double team and still make an impact when healthy. Lissemore would make a nice back up NT, I'm not sure how Hatcher fits in, Crawford could potentially be a 3-tech but is really raw in terms of pass rush. We need an elite type rusher from the inside to be effective and those types of players go earlyand often in the draft. We also need to see what the status on resigning Spencer will be but if he is back I think he will do just fine as LE and Albright is a nice reserve.
if they keep ratliff and thats a big if, i see him being the 3 tech rather than the shaded nose, and lissemore has played well enough to think he he would be the shaeded nose tackle. crawford was LDE at boise state so i don't see him as the three hatcher only has a year left so he probably would be the 3 tech if they lose ratliff. but a good point tho who gonna get pressure up the middle, bc the star of the tampa 2 is the 3 tech d-lineman maybe sylvester williams or sheldon richardson in the draft. i remember you brought up jarvis jones slipping to dallas in the first but he would be a great strongside linebacker who could reduce down to de in the nickel package like von miller that would be a good pass rush option, what do you think that?
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:47 PM    (permalink
Azhais
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I think you guys are selling Kiffin short though. He's a HOF caliber DC (if coordinators were allowed in the Hall). Yes he's old as dirt, but his resume speaks for itself.
Monte's biggest weakness has always been spread concepts and running QBs. Good thing there's none of that in the NFCE.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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It's funny the reaction of most of you to Kiffin.
Well his own son fired him.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Well his own son fired him.
and his son is an idiot, but he should have been fired anyway

espn dallas has been reporting kiffin has been the lead guy partly because he would accept working under a 1year contract and he desperately want to get back in the league.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Why not just hire Lovie Smith?

I think Lovie is a hell of a DC. And he's not ancient. And if you want turnovers, who better to teach your defense how to get them than Lovie Smith?
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:20 PM    (permalink
TheFinisher
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What about Church to LB? He seems like a prime candidate to make that S to LB switch Monte has done in the past.
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