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Old 01-16-2013, 01:18 AM    (permalink
Forenci
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I don't know. It's just hard for me to judge. Everyone wants to look at playoff and team success as a measurement of how good a QB is. I think that's silly. Yes it's a passing league and the QB has the greatest impact on a team's success but it is far far away from being an individual effort. I feel like people don't take that into account these days anymore.

Statistically, Manning has been better but everyone seems to forget that. Everyone likes to key in on a few memorable plays for Manning but that doesn't mean he's lesser than Brady. People forget because of Brady's late game heroics but he's had some pretty bad games that have cost his team game in the playoffs. He's also had some pretty bad games in the playoffs and had a good enough team to get through anyways. Manning hasn't had that luxury. Manning had to play perfect with a horrid defense or they would lose.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Montana
Unitas
Brady
Elway
Young

That's my list. And in no specific order, just more so an overall group. Peyton Manning is right on the outside for me. I think Brees could join that list very soon.
I would probably switch out Unitas for Gannon. Otherwise this list is spot on.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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I would probably switch out Unitas for Gannon. Otherwise this list is spot on.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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I'm torn who I should rate higher, Marino or Favre. I think both of them are right there at 6 and 7 respectively.
I definitely get the impression that Favre, Marino, and also Fran Tarkenton are held in higher regard by their former peers than they are by fans. When you read or listen to the people they played against, those guys apparently did things that would just leave their peers in awe.

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Old 01-16-2013, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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Last year, we had one of those stupid Manning vs Brady threads that had the actual numbers done up all pretty like. Manning's career playoff passer rating and Brady's career playoff passer rating were pretty damned close.
For what its worth, here are there post season numbers:

Brady: 5629 yards, 41 touchdowns, 20 interceptions, 62.5 completion percentage and a rating of 89.1 in 23 games.

Manning: 5679 yards, 32 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, 63.2 completion percentage and a rating of 88.4 in 20 games.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:44 AM    (permalink
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Peyton's hallmark is flawless execution and tireless study and preparation. He always knows what the play is supposed to look like. When it's there, he makes it. But he doesn't know what to do when it's not there, and it's why his little brother is a better quarterback in the playoffs than he is. The ceiling of Peyton's success is what he's prepared for. That's why he has such an impressive regular-season record but looks mediocre in the playoffs. The teams he is prepared for he typically beats. The teams that make him play their game are the ones that beat him, and those are also the teams that make the playoffs.

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Old 01-16-2013, 02:47 AM    (permalink
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I blame Peyton for Raheem Moore's failure. Manning is 9-11 in the playoffs while Flacco is 7-4, therefore Flacco is a much better QB than Manning. The rest of the team makes no difference in the outcome of a game, only the QB matters.
Manning has had a lot of awful games in the playoffs compared to what he does in the regular season.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:43 AM    (permalink
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I blame Peyton for Raheem Moore's failure. Manning is 9-11 in the playoffs while Flacco is 7-4, therefore Flacco is a much better QB than Manning. The rest of the team makes no difference in the outcome of a game, only the QB matters.
Moore didn't help matters obviously, but plays like this don't help his case either.

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Old 01-16-2013, 04:52 AM    (permalink
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Here's a verrrrrrrry interesting read for everyone:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...or-help/20868/
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:21 AM    (permalink
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Number crunching is nice, but as a football fan all I know is I've seen Peyton look like a demigod in the regular season but something's missing when he gets in the playoffs. He's just not the same player when it's one and done.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:42 AM    (permalink
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I don't like even looking at playoff records. Look at how many Super Bowl wins they have, how many Super Bowl appearances they have, maybe even conference championship game appearances, but don't look at playoff record.

You're going to get a playoff loss every you don't win the Super Bowl. Manning's 11 playoff losses means that he's been to the playoffs 12 times. That's a very good thing. A 9-11 record can be much better than say 5-3 (Jake Delhomme), even though the win percentage is a lot lower.

Plus Manning has lead his teams to a playoff bye several times. He could have a couple more wins had he gotten to beat up on wildcard teams in the opening round. But instead he lead his team to a good enough record in the regular season that they got to advance to the divisional round automatically.
But how many times have Peyton Manning been one and done? He's had more opportunities to win a bunch of Super Bowls, maybe more than any other quarterback ever. And he's lost in the opening round 8 times I believe...out of the 11 opportunities he's had.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:24 AM    (permalink
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Peyton's hallmark is flawless execution and tireless study and preparation. He always knows what the play is supposed to look like. When it's there, he makes it. But he doesn't know what to do when it's not there, and it's why his little brother is a better quarterback in the playoffs than he is. The ceiling of Peyton's success is what he's prepared for. That's why he has such an impressive regular-season record but looks mediocre in the playoffs. The teams he is prepared for he typically beats. The teams that make him play their game are the ones that beat him, and those are also the teams that make the playoffs.
This was very well put. And maybe as good as I've ever seen it put.

I may have completely changed my view on this matter. Last year I was beating the Peyton Manning drum. An apologist. An excuse maker. A person, maybe, at the time, in complete denial. I don't think there is any question Peyton Manning made those Colts teams better than they were. The difference showed when they went from a playoff team to the worst team in the NFL (with a roster that was virtually the same). I thought it made Manning look better. You could not deny his impact, and just how vital he was to that team.

This year, and specifically, this postseason has triggered something in me. Some sort of change. I watch Tom Brady and I watch a QB that seams to reinvent himself every year. He's running a different offense every single ******* season. Last year it was two TEs and attacking the middle of the field with no outside threat whatsoever. Not turning the ball over at all. It was a dominant offense. This year he's running a hurry up offense predicated on exhausting defenses and blending the run perfectly with the pass. Long drives with numerous plays, incredible on third down and an unrelenting pace. It's a dominant offense.

He's orchestrated offenses predicated on a running, smash mouth style football with good defense that keeps the opposing point total low. Low scoring, ugly games. No flashy stats. Just wins. He won two Super Bowls this way. He's won with great wide receiver talent on the outside. He wasn't just successful, he put together one of the greatest seasons any QB has ever had. He went undefeated, and put up numbers Manning hasn't replicated.

He has won in every way imaginable. This year he has passed the eyeball test. He is playing like the best QB in the NFL. Rodgers is the best pure player in a vacuum, but against good / great defenses, Rodgers has played average the past two years. Brady just throttles, seemingly, every defense put in front of him. I'm waiting for Brady to show a hint of decline in his game, but he seems like he's simply getting better. No matter what kind of offense he is running or what kind of talent he has to work with.

Manning on the other hand... This was supposed to be different. He was supposed to have a more balanced offense. He was supposed to have a better defense. He was supposed to have help. I don't see it. I see the same Colts teams we've been used to for the last decade. Great in the regular season and mediocre in the psostseason. If we're going to give him credit for being "the best regular season QB of all-time" then why are we making excuses for his decline in play in the postseason? Why are we all of a sudden placing blame on the defense, offensive line or running game? We dont bring that up for his regular season success. So why the postseason? It's a question I cannot answer. And it's the reason why I no longer consider him the best QB ever. I don't even consider him Top 5 anymore.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:32 AM    (permalink
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Honestly I have no idea how anyone has Steve Young on a greatest of all time list at all.
Maybe because Young is quite possibly the greatest quarterback to ever play the game.

The joke is that people think Montana is arguably the greatest ever, when he honestly couldn't even carry Young's jock.

Montana's entire claim to fame is that he was the QB of 4 Super Bowl winners, and he had much better numbers than Terry Bradshaw in doing it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:41 AM    (permalink
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In Honor of my best bud Brody.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:06 AM    (permalink
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It's difficult to leave Peyton out of any conversation regarding the best quarterbacks of all time, but someone posted earlier in this topic that "you can't blame Peyton for allowing 38 points in this game." Yes, we can. He threw a pick six, fumbled a ball away in his own territory which led to a touchdown, and finally threw another pick in his own territory (in overtime), which set up the game-winning field goal. I'm thinking he's pretty much the goat there. Does a bad playoff game remove him from the conversation regarding the best quarterbacks ever? No. But it certainly makes him a key reason why the Broncos lost this week.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:11 AM    (permalink
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Also, I think everyone got a little too crazy with the Broncos hype train this year. This is a team that beat two teams with winning records all season: the Bengals and the Ravens. They lost to every other winning team: the Falcons, the Texans, the Patriots, the Ravens rematch. I think everyone was a little bit too willing to buy into the Broncos because they routinely beat weak opponents like the Raiders twice, the Chargers twice, the Chiefs twice, the Saints, the Panthers, the Buccaneers, and the Browns. Of all the "legitimate contenders" in the playoffs this year, there's an easy argument to be made that they were among the least deserving, having Peyton Manning on their roster notwithstanding.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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Manning's legacy is pretty much set, and if anything he added to it with this season given he exceeded most expectations. He sealed his legacy in that 18 point comeback in the AFC championship against New England. After that point all he could do was add to it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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Even these Broncos aren't that talented outside of the passing game. Sure Knowshon finally stopped sucking complete ass, Champ is a future hall of famed and they have a great duo on the edge, but how is this different than the Peyton Manning Colts with Freeney and Mathis being the only impact defenders? The Broncos were SB contenders because of Peyton. And when the playoffs rolled around, where other teams had the talent to matchup with the Broncos, and Peyton's arm started getting worn out, they lost.

Cause it's not like Brady has one a SB since his D went to **** either, and I love Brady.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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As with most things I think it's somewhere in the middle. He's not the choker that Pats fans and irrational haters say he is. But you can't blame his failures on everyone and everything else like apologists do.

To say that Manning never had a consistently great or even decent defense would be true. 2005 and 2007 were the two best defenses the Colts had during the Manning era.

In 05 Tony Dungy's son killed himself in late December. It had a clear effect on Dungy (obviously) which meant the entire team was affected. The gameplan on both sides of the ball vs. the Steelers was garbage and, though Manning got the team close to a win, it took him almost half of the game to get the offense moving. Team loss, but Manning did not play to the level of the expectations set by his normal, fantastic play.

In 07, with arguably the best defense the Colts have ever fielded during the Manning era, a combo of a gimpy Philip Rivers and Billy ****ing Volek somehow managed to beat the Colts at home 28-24. The defense let the offense down for sure, but Manning also threw some of his signature INTs at the worst times. The offense was also unable get a TD deep in Chargers territory late in the game, and when the D improbably got a 3 and out, Manning and the O turned the ball over on downs again. Again, he made some very good plays but he also hurt the team with turnovers and bad decisions.

In no other season did Manning have a playoff-worthy defense. He did have a pretty good OL and running game up until 2007, but that also seemed to falter hard in the playoffs. By that time Manning was making too much money to really build much of a team around him, and his OL deteriorated significantly. The 09 team that made it to the SB really benefited from their schedule, including their post-season opponents. The

Manning is clearly the best regular-season QB in history. However, he tightens up too much in the playoffs and this leads to the worst mistakes at the worst times. The teams around him rarely help him, but he definitely plays his part in losing. Disgraced Colts kicker Mike Vanderjact spoke to this a few years ago. He was trying to talk to Manning one year about how excited he was to win in the playoffs and go tot he SB. Manning apparently had a weird standoffish attitude about it. At the time Colts fans dismissed it because Vanderjact is an idiot. But he may have been right.

As for Brady vs. Manning, even Pats fans have to admit that Brady did not really become an elite QB until the 2006 season. There is no question that he is now, and he may be a better overall QB now than Manning is, even in the regular season. But he is not the primary reason the Pats won 3 SBs. And his failure to be "Mr. Clutch" is a big reason why they've lost to the Giants in their last two appearances. But because his reputation is already established as a clutch QB, it doesn't matter how many times he chokes in the post-season. The general perception will continue to be that Brady is a great post-season QB because his team won 3 SBs back when he was still developing.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Also, I think everyone got a little too crazy with the Broncos hype train this year. This is a team that beat two teams with winning records all season: the Bengals and the Ravens. They lost to every other winning team: the Falcons, the Texans, the Patriots, the Ravens rematch.
The only AFC teams that had a winning record against teams above .500 were Pittsburgh and Cincy. The whole conference was out of whack.

That stat might be a better indicator in the NFC, though. The three teams that had winning records against good teams? Falcons, 49ers, Seahawks.
(Green Bay was 4-5 with an "iffy" loss)
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning is the best quarterback to ever play the game.

Unfortunately for him, he didn't have the benefit of playing alongside great defenses as often as Tom Brady and Joe Montana.

Put Peyton Manning on those 80s 49ers teams, or on those early 00s Pats teams, and he wins as many, if not more, Super Bowls as these guys. Hell, put him on those 70s Steelers teams and he probably wins 5+ Super Bowls.

Football is a team game. Winning playoff games and Super Bowls comes down to defense as well as offense, and lots of lucky breaks and bounces of the ball are factored in as well.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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I don't buy the argument that Tom Brady lived off of a great defense. Tom Brady has been playing with a historically bad defense for the past 5 years and made the SB twice in that span, and is 1 game away from doing it again.

Tom Brady's winning percentage in the playoffs with a poor defense is still better than Peyton Manning's.

Tom Brady has just as much statistical success as Peyton Manning.

He's been to 5 freaking Super Bowls. 1 win away from 6.

Don't tell me winning doesn't matter, because if it didn't then Dan Marino is the greatest qb of all time. You can't judge this game off of box scores and statistics, there is a human element to all sports that can't be ignored. And when we factor in that human element, the ability to play well when stakes are raised, when your blood pressure rises etc, Tom Brady is clearly the superior qb.

And that's no knock against Peyton. Peyton is a top 5 qb of all time, but Tom Brady is top 2. I think we can safely put to rest the debate. Brady won.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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I think it's an insult to Tom Brady to even be compared to Peyton Manning.

Peyton never has been a clutch or pressure QB. It's the one weakness in his game and it's huge. He's never been that guy despite all his gifts who's been able to elevate inconsistent play by his teammates around him and pull out a win.

Peyton is a superstar because of his record breaking stats, I just wouldn't want him to be my QB if my team was in the playoffs.
Huh? Peyton Manning does have the most 4th quarter comebacks of all time. Sure it can be a skewed stat but there are plenty of wins that came inside of 2 minutes.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Huh? Peyton Manning does have the most 4th quarter comebacks of all time. Sure it can be a skewed stat but there are plenty of wins that came inside of 2 minutes.
Not to mention he actually did mount multiple game-winning/game-tying drives in the last few minutes in the playoffs only to see his kicker/defense fail him.

I think it's a bit funny that up to about 2006-2007, Manning was still regarded here as a better QB than Brady. And since about that time when Brady stopped being so great in the postseason and became a terrific regular season record-breaking passer (and after Peyton finally won his superbowl), he slowly started jumping ahead of Manning in everyone's mind (which I wouldn't necessarily argue about, but not for the same reasons) mostly "because of his postseason heroics".

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Old 01-16-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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As for Brady vs. Manning, even Pats fans have to admit that Brady did not really become an elite QB until the 2006 season. There is no question that he is now, and he may be a better overall QB now than Manning is, even in the regular season. But he is not the primary reason the Pats won 3 SBs. And his failure to be "Mr. Clutch" is a big reason why they've lost to the Giants in their last two appearances. But because his reputation is already established as a clutch QB, it doesn't matter how many times he chokes in the post-season. The general perception will continue to be that Brady is a great post-season QB because his team won 3 SBs back when he was still developing.
You also have to admit that until that stage Brady's offense (outside of Brady) was equivalent to the Colts defense. Brady didn't get legitimate weapons until after that season. You're talking guys like Branch, Givens, Brown, Fauria, Smith etc. None of these guys would have cracked the Colts offense.

It's tough to compare two guys like this because the situations were completely different. Manning had countless top targets and quite a few hall of fame caliber players on offense. Harrison, Wayne, James, Clark, Glenn, Saturday, Stokley, Faulk etc. The top guys Manning had on offense where similar to the top guys the Pats had on defense. Seymour, Wilfork, Brushci, Vrable, McGinest, Harrison, Samuel, Law , Milloy etc. In fact it's not a ridiculous statement to say that Manning's cast on offense was more impressive than the Pats defense.

I also disagree that the Pats lost both games to the Giants mainly because of Brady. Sure Brady didn't have great games but on both occassions he had the Pats up late into the 4th quarter and the defense folded like an old deck chair on both occassions, aided by one miracle throw and catch in 2007 and one spectacular throw and catch last year.

I'm not going to get too involved in this debate because I can't be unbiased because Brady is my horse in this race. However I don't think it's a fair comparison to say Brady won Superbowls because he had a great defense and Manning didn't because he had a crap defense. Because on the flip side, Manning had great offensive talent but Brady had mediocre offensive talent in those years
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