At this point, what do we make of Peyton Manning's legacy?

[WCH]

Originally Posted by nepg

Thank you for speaking up.

I was sitting there with this face:


The Top 6 is almost undebatable. And I am in the camp that says there are 3 tiers.

Montana/Brady
Elway/Manning
Marino/Favre

Personally, I have it:
Brady
Montana
Manning
Elway
Marino
Favre

That said, I think Manning ends up #2 and Montana #3 for me in the end.

And I love people talking about Brady/Manning as if they're arguing Aikman and Marino where one player clearly had much more amazing team around him his entire career.

This is the post that I agree with the most, but I would also make room (Top 8?) for Tarkenton and Unitas.

Fran Tarkenton, guys! He's not getting enough love!

[Bob Sanders Dreadlock]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

I was stating that in the players I mentioned there were countless top players and some HOF caliber players.

Obviously guys like Stokley, Clark, Saturday aren't in that second category but 5 or 6 years ago they were all high level offensive players

Again whaaaaat? Stokleys best year came as Manning's 3rd option where he topped 1000 yards. Stokleys next best season in his career is 635 yards. Stokley is a very mediocre player

[K Train]

hes the worst QB in the playoffs, Rahim Moore no doubt blew the game in the end but peyton blew it for 58:30 before that and in overtime....if youre so great you need to be a hero in the 13 degree weather with the game on the line...and for the vast majority of his career he couldnt do that in the cozy RCA dome even though the team was clearly built for playing in the dome and winning 12 games a season. I honestly think he can really thank rex grossman for being an absolutely putrid QB because that superbowl against the bears looked realllllly rough for peyton for a whilel but it just ended up that grossman was just the way worse QB that day

hes great, got gaudy stats, is a true student of the game, but he really is one of the worse playoff QBs in recent memory and im sure theres been so many worse but you dont want to be listed with those guys if your supposed to be as great as peyton manning

[Bob Sanders Dreadlock]

Originally Posted by K Train

hes the worst QB in the playoffs, Rahim Moore no doubt blew the game in the end but peyton blew it for 58:30 before that and in overtime....if youre so great you need to be a hero in the 13 degree weather with the game on the line...and for the vast majority of his career he couldnt do that in the cozy RCA dome even though the team was clearly built for playing in the dome and winning 12 games a season. I honestly think he can really thank rex grossman for being an absolutely putrid QB because that superbowl against the bears looked realllllly rough for peyton for a whilel but it just ended up that grossman was just the way worse QB that day

hes great, got gaudy stats, is a true student of the game, but he really is one of the worse playoff QBs in recent memory and im sure theres been so many worse but you dont want to be listed with those guys if your supposed to be as great as peyton manning

That really is one of the most asinine things to say. They got all the way to the super bowl with grossman's erratic play they could have won the super bowl inspite of it.

[JordanTaber]

Post-1980:

Steve Young
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino

[ViperVisor]

QB Rating in the 90s



Steve Young was a step above anyone of the era in efficiency and ran for 25 yards a game.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

Post-1980:

Steve Young
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino

Dude. Any Post-1980 list has to include Favre. Bro, do you even watch football? Even any film at all, in the past 20 years?

JK, but Favre was clearly better than Brees. Everybody else, maybe not so much.

[K Train]

Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock

That really is one of the most asinine things to say. They got all the way to the super bowl with grossman's erratic play they could have won the super bowl inspite of it.

the nfc was horrible that year....peyton was MVP of the game for no reason, peyton was not the reason they won it was clearly rhodes and addai. I just think peyton has shown enough to say while he is great and you would obviously want him on your side he is completely out classed by some players in clutchness even if he ends up being the best statistical QB

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by nepg

Thank you for speaking up.

The Top 6 is almost undebatable. And I am in the camp that says there are 3 tiers.

Montana/Brady
Elway/Manning
Marino/Favre

Personally, I have it:
Brady
Montana
Manning
Elway
Marino
Favre

That said, I think Manning ends up #2 and Montana #3 for me in the end.

And I love people talking about Brady/Manning as if they're arguing Aikman and Marino where one player clearly had much more amazing team around him his entire career.

Just look at him, does that look an athlete, much less one of the greatest and the most clutch QB of all time? That's how awesome Unitas was, he may have looked like an old man with a ****** up spine, but the man still just got it done.

[WCH]

Guys.



I'm not joking about Tark'

He has to be in the GOAT conversation.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by WCH

This is the post that I agree with the most, but I would also make room (Top 8?) for Tarkenton and Unitas.

Fran Tarkenton, guys! He's not getting enough love!

1) Brady - not completely sure he deserves #1 because throwing the ball today is so easy compared to the past but 5 SB appearances makes him clearly the man of this generation.
2) Unitas - Held records for years from a generation where throwing the ball was really hard but gets little credit because todays fans never saw him play.
3) Montana - Almost made him #1 but then I remembered that Walsh invented the WCO and defenses didn't have a clue on how to defend it, which helped considerably in inflating his stats but awe those 4 SB wins cannot be denied.
4) Elway - Really won with a very untalented team around him. Was also in a lot of SB's and finally won his last 2.
5) Steve Young continued to win SB's even after the league began to defend the WCO.

I've seen every QB since the early 50's and this is how I would rate them. Modern QB's who put up huge #'s simply because of the rule changes, don't impress me unless I see playoff wins and SB rings.

I like Tarkenton but he doesn't belong with this group, the Purple People Eaters were the strength of that team.

Peyton is way overrated because he plays today and has put up some fancy ststs over the years but come on, 9-11 in the playoffs isn't top 5 in my book.

Everybody goes on about how weak a team Marino played on but the fact is, it was a pretty solid team in his early years and he did little with it them. He was insistent, according to Jimmy Johnson, that he wanted to throw the ball on every down even though Johnson told him he could never win a SB doing it that way, so his stats mean little to me.

Favre was very entertaining but face it, he like Peyton, won 1 SB and under performed in big games. He was a gunslinger and not much more.

Eli may yet make the top 5, but he is still a little inconsistent for me.

Terry Bradshaw won 4 SB's and I feel he doesn't get enough credit from the general football population. He is pretty close to the top 5 IMO along with Aikman and Staubach.

The modern fan puts way too much credit on the current crop of QB's with the watered down rules which makes passing the ball so easy compared to what previous era's QB's had to put up with. The game today is a joke when compared to previous generations, the passing yards clearly demonstrate how easy today's QB's have it. Am I surprised Calvin broke the receiving yards record, no, what shocked me was, how few yards he broke it by. That record will be demolished in the coming years as QB's approach 6,000 yards a season.

I like today's game and appreciate that the player's heads have to be protected from concussions, but let us not pretend that today's game isn't a heck of a lot easier that previous generations played. The Safety rules have made a complete joke of passing the ball over the middle of the field and the protection a QB receives in today's game, makes throwing the ball a cakewalk compared to what previous era's QB's had to handle.

[nobodyinparticular]

Originally Posted by Splat

Please tell me you are joking.

I got Montana #1 and Elway #2 after that it's toss up for me between a hand full of guys.

With Steve Young and Rich Gannon not being in the discussion.

He set records before the league rules changed. He still has the record for most completions in a single game. He has the record for highest completion percentage in a game with at least 30 passes. He set the single season completion record, one that had stood for 11 years. He had another season with 3400 yards passing and 500 yards rushing--the oldest player to complete that feet by 4 years.

Gannon has clearly performed at a high level in an offensive environment entirely different from the one you see today. He is on another level from the guys who are putting up video game numbers today. And in an era with nearly the same offensive rules that Unitas played in, Gannon blows the former Raven out of the water. I mean come on. Unitas' career completion percentage is under 55%. He does not belong on QB Mt Rushmore. That honor clearly goes to the original dual threat QB, the pioneer of modern passing, Rich Gannon.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular

He set records before the league rules changed. He still has the record for most completions in a single game. He has the record for highest completion percentage in a game with at least 30 passes. He set the single season completion record, one that had stood for 11 years. He had another season with 3400 yards passing and 500 yards rushing--the oldest player to complete that feet by 4 years.

Gannon has clearly performed at a high level in an offensive environment entirely different from the one you see today. He is on another level from the guys who are putting up video game numbers today. And in an era with nearly the same offensive rules that Unitas played in, Gannon blows the former Raven out of the water. I mean come on. Unitas' career completion percentage is under 55%. He does not belong on QB Mt Rushmore. That honor clearly goes to the original dual threat QB, the pioneer of modern passing, Rich Gannon.

Now, you completely lost me, Gannon had a nice career but top 5, not even close and comparing him to Unitas's stats is absurd. Totally different eras.
55% was an all star # in Unitas's era because throwing the ball was extremely tough back then.
Anybody who tries to compare stats between eras is just wasting their time. It is meaningless.

[Raiderz4Life]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

Now, you completely lost me, Gannon had a nice career but top 5, not even close and comparing him to Unitas's stats is absurd. Totally different eras.
55% was an all star # in Unitas's era because throwing the ball was extremely tough back then.
Anybody who tries to compare stats between eras is just wasting their time. It is meaningless.

pft, hater.

[Mufasa]

Confession: Rich Gannon is one of my top 5 favorite players of all time. I was almost a Raiders fan because of him.

[nobodyinparticular]

Originally Posted by Raiderz4Life

pft, hater.

R4L knows what's up.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

Favre was very entertaining but face it, he like Peyton, won 1 SB and under performed in big games. He was a gunslinger and not much more.

I think it depends which Favre we're talking about. After the 1998 season Favre when the Holmgren era was over, or pre that period. Because Favre did show up in a lot of big games in the 90's in the postseason. When he did lose it was to teams that usually went on to win the Super Bowl. It started going downhill in the 2000's.

[nobodyinparticular]

Originally Posted by Ness

I think it depends which Favre we're talking about. After the 1998 season Favre when the Holmgren era was over, or pre that period. Because Favre did show up in a lot of big games in the 90's in the postseason. When he did lose it was to teams that usually went on to win the Super Bowl. It started going downhill in the 2000's.

I agree. Favre from 98 and earlier was clearly a better QB than Steve Young.

Can't fault the guy for poor performances with poor supporting casts after Holmgren left.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by Raiderz4Life

pft, hater.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a 'pft, hater'??????

[The Alex]

Brady and Manning have virtually identical postseason passing numbers. The only thing that is different are the wins. If two players provide identical production, but their records are different, do you really think one is significantly better or worse than the other? There is more to football than just the quarterback.

[AHungryWalrus]

Originally Posted by The Alex

Brady and Manning have virtually identical postseason passing numbers. The only thing that is different are the wins. If two players provide identical production, but their records are different, do you really think one is significantly better or worse than the other? There is more to football than just the quarterback.

That's why there is more to football than just stats. I mean, a pick is a pick, but I would rather an interception occur 5 minutes into a game, than in overtime.

The stats are similar, but I don't see how you could watch all of Tom's playoff games, and then all of Peyton's, and come away thinking they are equal.

This is splitting hairs, clearly, but that's what happens when you are talking about 2 of the best 5 QB's of all time.

[JordanTaber]

The issue I have with Favre is he was uncoachable. He drove Holmgren nuts with his improvising. He played in good systems, yet he didn't really let them work for him.

Don't get me wrong, he made up for a lot of that with the raw ability to drill an intermediate throw between 3 defenders over the middle on 3rd and long...but he threw too many dumb interceptions and missed more open receivers than you'd like.

Drew Brees throws too many picks, too, but he does it because he knows he has the accuracy to knock a BB off Jerry Rice's head at midnight. If Brees is playing in an actually balanced offense, he'll stop taking those kinds of chances. Favre? Not so much.

[Caulibflower]

Fran Tarkenton was pretty awesome.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular

I agree. Favre from 98 and earlier was clearly a better QB than Steve Young.

Can't fault the guy for poor performances with poor supporting casts after Holmgren left.

Ha, you trolling me friend? That was never the point in regards to Favre...compared to Steve Young. He still threw bonehead interceptions in the 1990's. I'm just talking about Favre's body of work in that decade compared to the one that followed. The only thing I'd personally say Favre was better at during that time was his durability.

[The Alex]

Originally Posted by Ness

Ha, you trolling me friend? That was never the point in regards to Favre...compared to Steve Young. He still threw bonehead interceptions in the 1990's. I'm just talking about Favre's body of work in that decade compared to the one that followed. The only thing I'd personally say Favre was better at during that time was his durability.

I vehemently disagree with your assessment about Manning but I'm right on board with your Young love. Easily a top 10 quarterback of all-time and sorely overlooked when discussing the best of the best, despite putting up the most impressive passing numbers of the 90s.