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Old 01-18-2013, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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You should be. He finally has a championship caliber team.
Let's see him get out of the 2nd round. He is the coaching version of Tracy McGrady.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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You should be. He finally has a championship caliber team.
Ah, so he finally decided to take a step up from the Knicks to a new team?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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EDIT: It was Rondo's rookie season, and they got KG + Ray the next season. Either he improved greatly in one off-season, or Doc was holding him back for being a rookie. He also barely played Tony Allen, and I doubt he wasn't as good on defense as he is now. It wasn't until he got to Memphis that he got significant PT.
If you don't think Tony Allen was good at defense then, you should watch the 2010 Finals. Also realize that was the year after Tony was coming off major knee surgery. Plus he was behind some guys named Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. It's not like Doc was holding him back. Memphis was simply a better opportunity for his.

In regards to Rondo, how many rookie PGs picked in the 20s are given the reins to the offense in their rookie year? He slowly earned his PT, then started some games later in the year. Seems pretty normal. He started on that 07-08 team, because he was the only decent option. It's not like he was dominating playoff games.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Why does Carlisle make it? He has made 1 NBA finals appearance. 1.
He's done well throughout his career? On the Pistons, he had Stackhouse, Williamson, and Wallace, and they finished 50-32. The next year he ran the team through Rip and Billups, and finished with the same record. On the Pacers, he adjusted to having O'Neal and Reggie. Totally different rosters on almost every team, and he has adjusted.

All that, plus what he did in that 1 Final was phenomenal.

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If you don't think Tony Allen was good at defense then, you should watch the 2010 Finals. Also realize that was the year after Tony was coming off major knee surgery. Plus he was behind some guys named Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. It's not like Doc was holding him back. Memphis was simply a better opportunity for his.
Read the post again...

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In regards to Rondo, how many rookie PGs picked in the 20s are given the reins to the offense in their rookie year? He slowly earned his PT, then started some games later in the year. Seems pretty normal. He started on that 07-08 team, because he was the only decent option. It's not like he was dominating playoff games.
There are a lot of starting PGs in their early 20s actually. If you know your rookie PG is good, and your team sucks, there's no reason to hold him back. It doesn't matter if he's a rookie or not. You have nothing to lose.

I guess he's just a terrible talent evaluator.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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He's done well throughout his career? On the Pistons, he had Stackhouse, Williamson, and Wallace, and they finished 50-32. The next year he ran the team through Rip and Billups, and finished with the same record. On the Pacers, he adjusted to having O'Neal and Reggie. Totally different rosters on almost every team, and he has adjusted.

All that, plus what he did in that 1 Final was phenomenal.
And then the next year Larry Brown won the title. That Pacers team was super talented and probably should have won a title. They didn't.

His 06-07 team was similar to Doc's team and finished a robust 35-47 with a Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, O'Neal, and Danny Granger.

No one is saying Carlisle is a bad coach I just don't consider him great. He is George Karl level good that's all.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Ah, so he finally decided to take a step up from the Knicks to a new team?
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Let's see him get out of the 2nd round. He is the coaching version of Tracy McGrady.

WE'LL SEE BOTH OF YOU IN ROUND 2!!!

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Old 01-18-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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And then the next year Larry Brown won the title. That Pacers team was super talented and probably should have won a title. They didn't.

His 06-07 team was similar to Doc's team and finished a robust 35-47 with a Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, O'Neal, and Danny Granger.

No one is saying Carlisle is a bad coach I just don't consider him great. He is George Karl level good that's all.
Outside of Popovich, who could have done what the Mavs did two years ago? That run was outstanding and Carlisle gets a lot of that credit. He's easily one of the better coaches in the NBA, comparing him to George Karl is a joke.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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And then the next year Larry Brown won the title. That Pacers team was super talented and probably should have won a title. They didn't.

His 06-07 team was similar to Doc's team and finished a robust 35-47 with a Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, O'Neal, and Danny Granger.

No one is saying Carlisle is a bad coach I just don't consider him great. He is George Karl level good that's all.
Well, how do you know Carlisle wouldn't have won it if they kept him? He also never had Rasheed Wallace.

That was the year after the brawl, so I'll give him a pass that year. They must have been decimated by suspensions, and the team chemistry must have been down the drain.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Outside of Popovich, who could have done what the Mavs did two years ago? That run was outstanding and Carlisle gets a lot of that credit. He's easily one of the better coaches in the NBA, comparing him to George Karl is a joke.
Look at George Karl's resume. It is really impressive. He hasn't been under .500 since he started with the Sonics.

Carlisle is a really good coach. Not a great coach. Only Pop is a great coach in the NBA.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Alvin Gentry fired, he will be a HC again I'm sure
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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Read the post again...
You're right I did misread it so you can ignore the first sentence of my response. The rest of is (Tony coming off major knee surgery and being being Paul and Ray) still is valid.

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Originally Posted by Docta View Post
There are a lot of starting PGs in their early 20s actually. If you know your rookie PG is good, and your team sucks, there's no reason to hold him back. It doesn't matter if he's a rookie or not. You have nothing to lose.

I guess he's just a terrible talent evaluator.
Now you need to read my post again. I said Rondo was a rookie who was picked in the 20s (21st to be exact). And no there aren't too many rookie PGs picked 20+ who start. Add that to the fact that Rondo was basically just an athlete with good vision coming out. As I said, Rondo earned more PT as the season went on and eventually started towards the end of the year. So you're going to say that Doc isn't a great coach/is a poor talent evaluator because he didn't start Rondo from day 1? Come on now...
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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You're right I did misread it so you can ignore the first sentence of my response. The rest of is (Tony coming off major knee surgery and being being Paul and Ray) still is valid.


Now you need to read my post again. I said Rondo was a rookie who was picked in the 20s (21st to be exact). And no there aren't too many rookie PGs picked 20+ who start. Add that to the fact that Rondo was basically just an athlete with good vision coming out. As I said, Rondo earned more PT as the season went on and eventually started towards the end of the year. So you're going to say that Doc isn't a great coach/is a poor talent evaluator because he didn't start Rondo from day 1? Come on now...
He didn't give Allen significant PT even after the '07 season. He didn't become a starter until he got to Memphis.

Doesn't matter where they get drafted. If he's capable, you start him. Other teams deciding to pass on him shouldn't affect how you coach your own team. Rondo has always had good handles also. Shooting had always been his major weakness. And when you add in Jeff Green, Giddens, Gerald Green, and Foye, yes, I would challenge his evaluation skills.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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He didn't give Allen significant PT even after the '07 season. He didn't become a starter until he got to Memphis.

Doesn't matter where they get drafted. If he's capable, you start him. Other teams deciding to pass on him shouldn't affect how you coach your own team. Rondo has always had good handles also. Shooting had always been his major weakness. And when you add in Jeff Green, Giddens, Gerald Green, and Foye, yes, I would challenge his evaluation skills.
Ever heard a thing called improvement?
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Ever heard a thing called improvement?
Allen was always good on D. He didn't suddenly get better once the Grizzlies signed him. Same thing with Rondo. He just needed PT to show off his talents. Playing with the Big 3 certainly helped.

And to add on to my last post. Yes, the Celtics have had the misfortune of only getting late round picks, but look at how well the Spurs have done drafting with late picks. They haven't kept a lot of them, but most of them have turned out to be pretty good players.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Doc is a great coach and is the only person or thing about Boston area sports I actually like...
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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This debate does not deliver. Let's make fun of Cousins or something.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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This debate does not deliver. Let's make fun of Cousins or something.
No making fun of Boogie....
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Docta I think if you look at it the Celtics have actually been one of the better drafting teams in the league considering where they pick. Have they had their share of busts? Sure, but the NBA Draft is a total crapshoot once you get out of the top 10. Even top 10 picks are no sure thing.

You compare them to the Spurs, but the Spurs are arguably the best drafting team in the league (maybe OKC? Different situations).

This is also getting a lot off the topic of Doc as an actual coach. He's not an all-time great, but he's pretty widely considered to be a top 3 coach in the league right now.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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the majority of teams struggle drafting, especially since the NBA draft is like all potential and has a ridiculous bust rate. If your top 5 pick becomes a solid starter, you made a good pick
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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the majority of teams struggle drafting, especially since the NBA draft is like all potential and has a ridiculous bust rate. If your top 5 pick becomes a solid starter, you made a good pick
Exactly. If you are drafting mid-late 1st and manage to get a solid role player you've done well for yourself.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. If you are drafting mid-late 1st and manage to get a solid role player you've done well for yourself.
Many Bulls fans complain about how the Bulls have drafted, but they have done pretty well. The one pick most of them liked, James Johnson, was a complete bust.

Bulls drafted Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, and Omer Asik in the 2nd half of the draft or later. Quality guys who are going to contribute but aren't immediate All-Stars. This doesn't mention NIKOLA MIROTIC, who I am super excited for but is at least one more year away, most likely two.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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I brought it up because both Rivers and Pop obviously have a say in who they draft/sign. The Spurs also have aging stars, but they're not as screwed as the C's are. Leonard, Neal, Green, and Splitter are all quality contributors.

If Belichick were a terrible talent evaluator, how good would his teams really be?
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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I brought it up because both Rivers and Pop obviously have a say in who they draft/sign. The Spurs also have aging stars, but they're not as screwed as the C's are. Leonard, Neal, Green, and Splitter are all quality contributors.

If Belichick were a terrible talent evaluator, how good would his teams really be?
Yes Pop >> Doc. Nobody was arguing otherwise. That still doesn't mean Doc isn't a really good coach. Pop is just the best.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Damn Rondo's legit. Also, Paul George went off today.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Yeah the Celtics definitely a good drafting team. Spurs porbably the tops in the league so that's not a fair comparison. Bulls have been very good as well. But the Celtics have drafted guys like Rondo and Al Jefferson later than you generally find guys who find that kind of success in the league.
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