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Old 01-23-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Umm BBD, Fairley was better than Suh this year. By a lot...he's actually really, really good.
Fairly needs to stay healthy though. It's tough to say, because I honestly think Suh gets criticized a bit unfairly. He hasn't reached expectations, but I think some of that is how expectations are just too high. One thing I didn't like with Suh this year was way too often he just didn't give a **** about his run fits. I want to blame the way he's taught to play wide 9 for that though, but that's on Suh too.

Suh was doubled a lot more than Fairly too.

What I really want to see is Detroit get an edge rusher to open up some of space inside for these guys to rush. Right now teams don't have to stretch out vs the Lions.

I'm very curious to see if Washburn can get more out of Suh. I feel like Suh has been horribly mismanaged as a player. He can be soooo much better than he is. The upside is still there.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, you don't want to pay Ngata 12 million if you are used to having premier DL. If you are a team like the Falcons, you would pay him that in a heartbeat.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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I can see the argument about interior guys who provide pass rush being valuable. Ngata is having a down year honestly as he has been hampered by injuries all year and it shows. Wilfork signed a huge bargain of a contract for the Patriots, but Ngata's contract wasn't that bad. There was no way in hell we were going to let him walk and I thought it was a decent deal. I just disagree generally that not being an elite pass rushing DT means you are worthless and overpaid.

Also Watt plays a completely different position than Ngata. They may both line up at 34 DE, but Watt is more akin to a 43 DE and Ngata is more of a 43 DT. Wade has Watt attack up field and make plays; it's not like Watt is 2 gaping and having to read and react.
Yeah but we're talking 12 million a year. That's franchise qb money. That's premier/elite pass rusher money.

That's just too much money for what Ngata brings to the table. Now as stated in this thread, it's not the end of the world for Baltimore bc they can re-sign all their guys while still having Ngata so it's not the end of the world.

But if you lose out on Flacco bc of Ngata, then what? It's hard to justify that contract. It really is.

And again, I'm not saying he's a bad player. He's an incredible player. But his role is just too limited for me to invest that kind of money in him.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Pure run players don't make the Hall of Fame. Oftentimes, they don't even get the credit they deserve when they play.

Kevin Fagan was as good a run defender as there's ever been in the NFL, and yet he was barely talked about, even overshadowed by freakin' Pierce Holt, since Holt more of a pressure guy. Holt wasn't half as good a run player as Fagan, but nobody cared about that.

That said, the days of interior linemen getting significant sack totals/pressure are pretty much over, so enough Pro Bowl selections could do it.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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THe 34 is the defense of the moment in the NFL, thus star players who excel in this system will get serious HOF consideration.

Wilfork IMO is a lock for Canton. Ngata will probably make it too.

Sacks as the end all, be all criteria for whether or not an interior Dlineman made it to Canton is a relatively recent phenomenon anyway. for guys who retired before 1985, no one really cared how many sacks they had.

Do you know how many sacks Bob Lilly, Merlin Olsen or Joe Greene had??

Of course you don't because it wasn't an official stat when they played.

It helps if an interior Dlineman has sacks, but it's not a must-have like it is for DEs and rush 'backers.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Ngata should be overlooked for the HOF just because he doesn't play a premium role. That would be like saying Guards, Centers and Inside Linebackers shouldn't get into the HOF for the same reason. If he's the best at what he does (which he is and has been for while) he deserves serious consideration.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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It's just very difficult for players on the DL who aren't pass rushers to get in. Especially in today's pass happy league.

Being a run stuffer doesn't warrant the same praise it used to. It's just not as valuable of a commodity as it once was.

If you're gonna put Ngata in the HOF, you gotta put guys like Teddy Washington in before him. And that won't happen.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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Back to the original question - I would say not at this time. Should he continue to anchor their line for another half a decade at the same quality of production as his previous 6 seasons then I'd say yes. It's an incomplete to me at this point. With all due respect, asking if players are HOF worthy mid way through their careers who play on the lines is always going to bring forth a crap shoot of responses. I think this increases for interior lineman on both sides of the ball as compared to DE/Rush LBs and the O-Tackles.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:27 AM    (permalink
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Possibly, but Vince Wilfork right now is a much better lock. Wilfork seems to be underrated. Might be the best NT ever.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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Possibly, but Vince Wilfork right now is a much better lock. Wilfork seems to be underrated. Might be the best NT ever.
He is up there but if you look back in history there are some seriously great players. Hard to beat Curley Culp.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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The thing Wilfork has going for him is he dominated from day one regardless of scheme and regardless of who was around him.

In his early career he played a 2 gap nose in between Richard Seymour and Ty Warren. Based on the fact he was perceived as a space eating run stuffer and in between a perennial pro bowler and a very good player he was underrated.

Then he moved to play multiple positions and multiple techniques with at best questionable talent beside him and became the best player on the defense.

In saying that I think it will be tough for him to get to Canton (unfairly IMO). The Hall of Fame system is flawed, just like the voting for end of season awards.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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I think this thread is still premature. In 2010 and 2011 he was one of the best defensive players in the NFL. Regardless of position. He was in the peak of his prime. This past season he has been terrible, but that will all be forgotten in retrospect because he made Pro Bowl / All-Pro teams. Which makes 5 straight years of being named to an All-Pro team.

And since his second season in the league he has been a Top 5 interior defensive linemen. He's on the right path and he's turning into more of a complete player that can rush the passer. He was a raw player coming out of college who excelled early in his career due to his brute strength and athleticism. He changes the line of scrimmage and he's been one of the most dominant run defenders in the game. As he's evolved as a pass rusher he's become effective on third down. He's not a great pass rusher by any means, but that's not indictment on Ngata. He is a complete player, which couldn't really say three years into his career.

He's one of the best at what he does. He's one of the elite defenders in the game and he's consistently been one of the best run stopping linemen in the game. If he continues his healthy play that warranted him a huge contract for another three or four years, then I dont know how he isn't a first ballot type of guy. If this question was proposed last year I think people would praising him more. Right now he's having a down season (his first since his rookie year).

I think a couple comparable players are Justin Smith and Richard Seymour. Their primary responsibilities are to two gap, play the run and clog the middle of the field. All three did it at an elite level and all three make average players around them look like Pro Bowl players. Their impact gets understated. Those guys have the ability to impact the game as much as any defender does. And, at one point in their careers, they were arguably the best defensive players in the game. I think all three should be future Hall of Fame players, but defensive tackles tend to get overlooked.

EDIT: Vince Wilfork is a lock to make the Hall of Fame.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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This past season he has been terrible
Hyperbole much?
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Wilfork is every bit the force that Ngata is, is every bit as versatile as Ngata is as he's also moved around along the DL, and is 20 million dollars cheaper.

If anyone has hurry #s available, I'd be interested in seeing those. Perhaps my stance would change after seeing those #s, but I never viewed Ngata as a pass rusher.
I couldn't find a site listing hurries, but this site has the numbers for QB hits.

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defen...=DT&season=reg
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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I couldn't find a site listing hurries, but this site has the numbers for QB hits.

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defen...=DT&season=reg
Great resource. In 2012 Ngata tied for 5th among DTs w/12 QB hits. Also, Geno Atkins is a beast.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Great resource. In 2012 Ngata tied for 5th among DTs w/12 QB hits. Also, Geno Atkins is a beast.
It's surprising how many more qb hits Suh had this season than anyone else. Just because I was curious I looked at these stats for DE's - Watt leads just about every category except FF. Amazing season.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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I had no idea Suh had 9 sacks on the season. And he smoked everyone in qb hits. His season was even more impressive than I thought.

Atkins had 14 sacks. What a monster.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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Yea, I was continually wondering why people thought Suh was so bad. I knew he had 9 sacks and a ton of hits(when i watched). I didn't think his hits were that high though. Second in tackles for a loss and sacks, along with all those hits. Suh is a monster, even in a wonky scheme.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Yea, I was continually wondering why people thought Suh was so bad. I knew he had 9 sacks and a ton of hits(when i watched). I didn't think his hits were that high though. Second in tackles for a loss and sacks, along with all those hits. Suh is a monster, even in a wonky scheme.
He gets a lot of bad press, had a disappointing season last year, and the Lions sucked. I think people just drew conclusions. I never had a strong opinion about him this year but my impression was that he again didn't do that well. Which is clearly not right.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Yea, I was continually wondering why people thought Suh was so bad. I knew he had 9 sacks and a ton of hits(when i watched). I didn't think his hits were that high though. Second in tackles for a loss and sacks, along with all those hits. Suh is a monster, even in a wonky scheme.
He disappeared at times, and Fairley started to take the double team more and more often when he was healthy. When Fairley went down, Suh seemed to play with more of a chip on his shoulder, but the rest of our line sucked ass for the most part (KVB is AWFUL).
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Fairly needs to stay healthy though. It's tough to say, because I honestly think Suh gets criticized a bit unfairly. He hasn't reached expectations, but I think some of that is how expectations are just too high. One thing I didn't like with Suh this year was way too often he just didn't give a **** about his run fits. I want to blame the way he's taught to play wide 9 for that though, but that's on Suh too.

Suh was doubled a lot more than Fairly too.

What I really want to see is Detroit get an edge rusher to open up some of space inside for these guys to rush. Right now teams don't have to stretch out vs the Lions.


I'm very curious to see if Washburn can get more out of Suh. I feel like Suh has been horribly mismanaged as a player. He can be soooo much better than he is. The upside is still there.


They had Cliff Avril out there, while he's not Von Miller why does Suh need better players and better coaching around him to reach his potential? Fairley and Avril isn't enough for the #2 overall pick?
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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He's only played 7 years. Lets see if he can make it to 10 before we talk about this?
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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They had Cliff Avril out there, while he's not Von Miller why does Suh need better players and better coaching around him to reach his potential? Fairley and Avril isn't enough for the #2 overall pick?
Avril sucks.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Avril sucks.
You said Fairley sucks too. Funny how everyone else can suck except Suh, but at least we know he'll be good if they can find a way to sign Henry Melton, and two DE's in the first two rounds that become studs.


It's just funny to hear you keep saying how that D-line sucks and he needs some talent next to him. Detroit can't afford to take a D-lineman every year in the top 15, eventually Suh has to get it done like every other player in the NFL.


Answer me this: What all pro talent was on the line his rookie year? Why was he able to play so much better then that affords him so many excuses now? If you think Fairley and Avril isn't enough talent on the D-line to succeed then Suh is a bust in your own terms.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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I'm a big Wilfork fan (desperately wanted the 49ers to pick him in the 2004 draft), but I don't see him as a Hall of Fame player. At least not yet. Michael Carter, Fred Smerlas, and Joel Steed ain't in, and they were all at least equally dominant.
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