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Old 01-20-2013, 11:08 PM    (permalink
cunningham06
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Tom Brady's legacy: WHAT CAN BE DONE?????
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:44 PM    (permalink
boknows34
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8 seasons now, 7 for Brady with 2008 on IR, without a Super Bowl for Bill and Tom Terrific.

No more miracle/clutch kicks.
No more fortunate Tuck Rule calls.
No more illegal taping.
No more Top 5 defense with Seymour, Law, Harrison, McGinest and Bruschi.

How ironic that Brady 2005-12 with 0 rings and a 7-7 postseason record is a much better QB than Brady 2001-04 with 3 rings and a 10-0 postseason record.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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If you look at Manning's playoff history the defense gave up 20-24 points in most of the games he lost. Only three times more. As the Colts spent most of their top draft picks and money on offense its hard to say the defense underperformed.

ESPN forget the AFC championship game in 2007 for some bizarre reason.

Colts playoff history
Date Game Result
Jan. 8, 2011 AFC Wild Card N.Y. Jets 17, Indianapolis 16
Feb. 7, 2010 Super Bowl XLIV New Orleans 31, Indianapolis 17
Jan. 24, 2010 AFC Championship Indianapolis 30, N.Y. Jets 17
Jan. 16, 2010 AFC Divisional Indianapolis 20, Baltimore 3
Jan. 13, 2009 AFC Wild Card San Diego 23, Indianapolis 17
Jan. 13, 2008 AFC Divisional San Diego 28, Indianapolis 24
Feb. 4, 2007 Super Bowl XLI Indianapolis 29, Chicago 17
Jan. 13, 2007 AFC Divisional Indianapolis 15, Baltimore 6
Jan. 6, 2007 AFC Wild Card Indianapolis 23, Kansas City 8
Jan. 15, 2006 AFC Divisional Pittsburgh 21, Indianapolis 18
Jan. 16, 2005 AFC Divisional New England 20, Indianapolis 3
Jan. 9, 2005 AFC Wild Card Indianapolis 49, Denver 24
Jan. 18, 2004 AFC Championship New England 24, Indianapolis 14
Jan. 11, 2004 AFC Divisional Colts 38, Chiefs 31
Jan. 4, 2004 AFC Wild Card Colts 41, Broncos 10
Jan. 4, 2003 AFC Wild Card Jets 41, Colts 0
Dec. 30, 2000 AFC Wild Card Miami 23, Indianapolis 17 (OT)
Jan. 16, 2000 AFC Divisional Tennessee 19, Indianapolis 16
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Name the QB who has 7 TDs and 9 INTs in 7 Conf Championship Games?

Which QB in his last 3 AFC CG has 3 TDs and 7 INTs with QB ratings of 66.4, 57.5 and 62.3 but gets credit for 'winning' two of them?

Go a further year back and which QB has 4 TDs and 8 INTs in his last 4 AFC CG and threw the game clinching INT against his arch rival after conceding an 18 pt lead?

Which QB in his last 3 playoff games vs Baltimore, all of them at home, has 3 TDs and 7 INTs? Without a Billy Cundiff choke job which QB is potentially 0-3 in those games?

Answers please in a tweet to Skip Bayless and Colin Cowherd.

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Old 01-21-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Brady really stunk in that AFC CG against San Diego. It even made be think that Billy Volek could pull that game out.

The week before had the epic Billy Volek driving the length of the field for a touchdown to beat the Colts. Thought for sure the Chargers were toast. Tomlinson was also out in this game when he was still great.

Oh, and Manning turned it over on downs twice after this.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
8 seasons now, 7 for Brady with 2008 on IR, without a Super Bowl for Bill and Tom Terrific.

No more miracle/clutch kicks.
No more fortunate Tuck Rule calls.
No more illegal taping.
No more Top 5 defense with Seymour, Law, Harrison, McGinest and Bruschi.

How ironic that Brady 2005-12 with 0 rings and a 7-7 postseason record is a much better QB than Brady 2001-04 with 3 rings and a 10-0 postseason record.
It's one of the reasons I think Brady needs another. He has 3 rings, but none since the team went to the pass oriented offense that Brady has been putting up these numbers in.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
8 seasons now, 7 for Brady with 2008 on IR, without a Super Bowl for Bill and Tom Terrific.

No more miracle/clutch kicks.
No more fortunate Tuck Rule calls.
No more illegal taping.
No more Top 5 defense with Seymour, Law, Harrison, McGinest and Bruschi.

How ironic that Brady 2005-12 with 0 rings and a 7-7 postseason record is a much better QB than Brady 2001-04 with 3 rings and a 10-0 postseason record.
Don't forget "no more abusing opposing WRs."

That's another big difference between the first part and the second part.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Brady is the 2nd best qb of all time to me, regardless of whether he won yesterday or not.

The nitpicking of his career accomplishments is kind of a joke honestly. So basically, every time Brady doesn't win a SB we go and kill him. Come on, get real.

The man isn't going 1 and done in the playoffs every season like Peyton did. The man loses in the SB or AFCCG.

Tom Brady's career has been so successful that it's actually hurt him. We never give the man the credit he deserves in the regular season bc we expect his success. It's the Patriots, they always win. Well that's largely bc of Brady but he never gets MVP consideration which is unfair.

Then he wins in the playoffs, but if he loses the SB or AFCCG we hear how he's overrated. Come on. This is becoming a joke.

He'll end his career as a top 3 qb of all time, and I think if he wins another ring, he'll be the greatest qb of all time, above Montana.

That doesn't change bc he lost to the Ravens in the AFCCG.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Brady is the 2nd best qb of all time to me, regardless of whether he won yesterday or not.

The nitpicking of his career accomplishments is kind of a joke honestly. So basically, every time Brady doesn't win a SB we go and kill him. Come on, get real.

The man isn't going 1 and done in the playoffs every season like Peyton did. The man loses in the SB or AFCCG.

Tom Brady's career has been so successful that it's actually hurt him. We never give the man the credit he deserves in the regular season bc we expect his success. It's the Patriots, they always win. Well that's largely bc of Brady but he never gets MVP consideration which is unfair.

Then he wins in the playoffs, but if he loses the SB or AFCCG we hear how he's overrated. Come on. This is becoming a joke.

He'll end his career as a top 3 qb of all time, and I think if he wins another ring, he'll be the greatest qb of all time, above Montana.

That doesn't change bc he lost to the Ravens in the AFCCG.
I think this is important to keep in mind. Even though I threw my two cents in with boknows' post, I think one of the biggest things we can take away from this is the kind of luck it takes to win a Super Bowl.

It takes a lot of lucky bounces for a team to make it to the Super Bowl much less win it. Sure it helps to be exceptionally good like Brady has been for the past decade-plus, but think about it. If Charles Woodson is .5 seconds later in coming to Brady, that's a fumble not a tuck. If Vinatieri doesn't hit not 1 but 2 huge field goals in the snow, Brady still doesn't win.

The luck has just happened to go the other way for the Patriots the past few seasons. Tyree's catch. Welker's drop and any number of big catches for NYG last year. Gronk's injuries this year and Vereen's fumble.

The ball bounced NE's way a lot to start Brady's career. We are now seeing a bit of a correction the past half decade.

Again, this is not to take away from Brady. I'm not saying "he was lucky he didn't deserve it" when he won all those games/Super Bowls to start his career.

ANY team that gets to the Super Bowl has a ton of luck involved. And the fact that Brady has been there so much in comparison to the rest of the league goes to show just how good this guy is. But it still takes some lucky bounces to win it all.

Brady is a fantastic QB and definitely one of if not the best in the history of the NFL.

And no I wasn't serious with my Rich Gannon stuff many pages back.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Brady is the 2nd best qb of all time to me, regardless of whether he won yesterday or not.

The nitpicking of his career accomplishments is kind of a joke honestly. So basically, every time Brady doesn't win a SB we go and kill him. Come on, get real.

The man isn't going 1 and done in the playoffs every season like Peyton did. The man loses in the SB or AFCCG.

Tom Brady's career has been so successful that it's actually hurt him. We never give the man the credit he deserves in the regular season bc we expect his success. It's the Patriots, they always win. Well that's largely bc of Brady but he never gets MVP consideration which is unfair.

Then he wins in the playoffs, but if he loses the SB or AFCCG we hear how he's overrated. Come on. This is becoming a joke.

He'll end his career as a top 3 qb of all time, and I think if he wins another ring, he'll be the greatest qb of all time, above Montana.

That doesn't change bc he lost to the Ravens in the AFCCG.
Above Montana. Hmm...even if he wins another ring, I don't know. Brady in recent years has lost a lot of home games in the playoffs...even with the leverage that he and other quarterbacks have now and days regarding rule changes for offense.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Does Eli get to be the GOAT if he beats Brady in the SB again?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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Above Montana. Hmm...even if he wins another ring, I don't know. Brady in recent years has lost a lot of home games in the playoffs...even with the leverage that he and other quarterbacks have now and days regarding rule changes for offense.
Of course he has lost a lot of playoff games that is because he is in the playoffs so much. Do people realize how hard it is to continually make and win in the playoffs?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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Of course he has lost a lot of playoff games that is because he is in the playoffs so much. Do people realize how hard it is to continually make and win in the playoffs?
He was also 10-0 at one point in his career in the playoffs. No one is saying it isn't difficult.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Of course he has lost a lot of playoff games that is because he is in the playoffs so much. Do people realize how hard it is to continually make and win in the playoffs?
Especially when your defense doesnt know what play the opposition is about to run ;)
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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He'll end his career as a top 3 qb of all time, and I think if he wins another ring, he'll be the greatest qb of all time, above Montana.
Two notes -

1) Maybe its just me but since SpyGate, Brady has either lost in the Super Bowl or hasnt made it there. I think thats very telling because outside of the Broncos beating the Patriots before SpyGate, Brady and the Patriots were pretty much unbeatable. I think that there's a lot more to SpyGate than anyone will ever know and at the same time, I just find it funny that Brady, Belichick and the Patriots havent won the Super Bowl since after the 2004 season.

2) Even if Brady wins a 4th Super Bowl ring, he's STILL not better than Montana and here's two reasons why - unlike Brady, Montana NEVER lost and NEVER threw an INT in any of the Super Bowls. Granted, you can subtract the INT factor but the bottom line is, how can anyone be viewed as the best when at times, he wasnt the best? Meaning, he lost. Montana's percentage will always be perfect. Once Brady lost to the Giants the first time, any chance of that ever happening for Brady went out the window.

On a side note -

If Eli Manning was to win two more Super Bowls without losing, I would consider him better than Brady because its very simple, I dont see how anyone can be viewed as the best when at times, they werent the best. The other QB/team was better.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Two notes -

1) Maybe its just me but since SpyGate, Brady has either lost in the Super Bowl or hasnt made it there. I think thats very telling because outside of the Broncos beating the Patriots before SpyGate, Brady and the Patriots were pretty much unbeatable. I think that there's a lot more to SpyGate than anyone will ever know and at the same time, I just find it funny that Brady, Belichick and the Patriots havent won the Super Bowl since after the 2004 season.

2) Even if Brady wins a 4th Super Bowl ring, he's STILL not better than Montana and here's two reasons why - unlike Brady, Montana NEVER lost and NEVER threw an INT in any of the Super Bowls. Granted, you can subtract the INT factor but the bottom line is, how can anyone be viewed as the best when at times, he wasnt the best? Meaning, he lost. Montana's percentage will always be perfect. Once Brady lost to the Giants the first time, any chance of that ever happening for Brady went out the window.

On a side note -

If Eli Manning was to win two more Super Bowls without losing, I would consider him better than Brady because its very simple, I dont see how anyone can be viewed as the best when at times, they werent the best. The other QB/team was better.
Holy **** that's stupid.

It's not like Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, he lost just as many times in the playoffs as Brady has. You can't punish Brady for taking his team farther more frequently.

I'm not saying Brady is better, I'm not joining that Montana vs Brady argument right now, but your logic is terrible.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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Manning Good.
Brady Good

Both gonna be in the hall with Montana, and Marino and Elway.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Holy **** that's stupid.

It's not like Montana never lost in the playoffs. In fact, he lost just as many times in the playoffs as Brady has. You can't punish Brady for taking his team farther more frequently.

I'm not saying Brady is better, I'm not joining that Montana vs Brady argument right now, but your logic is terrible.
I'm not punishing Brady for taking his team to the Super Bowl. I'm punishing him for NOT winning the Super Bowl the last two times. Sorry but I dont see how if Brady ties Montana, he automatically becomes better than Montana. To me, he wouldnt even be tied and even if by some miracle, Brady wins 5 championships, I still wouldnt consider him better because it took him 7 chances to get to 5. Who's to say that if Montana went to three more Super Bowls, that he wouldnt have won it three more times. It's all about being clutch in the biggest game in the sport, something that Brady is not, at least not for the last two times. Its all about percentages. Montana is perfect. Never lost. Was clutch when he had to be.

Just like how most consider Jordan to be the best player in NBA history. Its NOT just because he was clutch, but it was because when he reached the finals, he never lost. Simply, you werent going to beat him. Montana was the same way. Call me a homer if you want but I dont see how anyone can say Brady would be better than Montana when A) unlike Montana, Brady lost in the Super Bowl, not once but twice, B) it took him two extra chances just to tie and C) wasnt clutch and threw interceptions which is something Montana never did in the Super Bowl.

With Montana, you could bet your entire life on him winning and you would go on living. With Brady, its a 50/50 shot at best. If Eli or Big Ben were to win four championships in four chances, I would easily put both ahead of Brady because quite simply, I just dont see how anyone can view Brady as better when he's not because unlike the others, he lost in the Super Bowl.

To be the best, you have to win when you get to the Super Bowl every time. Otherwise, you're not and shouldnt even be in the discussion.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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Montana didn't go to more SBs because he lost before getting there, Brady on the otherhand did go to more Super Owls because he didn't lose before them as much. So you are saying that it ms better to lose earlier in the playoffs rather than later.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Montana didn't go to more SBs because he lost before getting there, Brady on the otherhand did go to more Super Owls because he didn't lose before them as much. So you are saying that it ms better to lose earlier in the playoffs rather than later.
Yes...thats exactly what im saying. No one remembers who lost in the Super Bowl. Only the winner is remembered and can become a legend, the best, greatest, elite, etc. I'm a 49ers fan and if they lose to the Ravens, then yes, I would have preferred them to lose to the Falcons for several reasons.

Bottom line is that yes, Brady made it to the Super Bowl five times compared to four times for Montana but at the end of the day, Brady lost two of them while Montana NEVER LOST.

I'm sorry but I dont see how anyone can not see what im saying. Everyone views Peyton as one of the best and yeah, he is in the regular season. Playoff time, Eli is better and has already surpassed him, yet majority think Peyton is better. I dont see how.

When a team loses in the playoffs and yes, Montana lost in the playoffs five times including once with KC. Brady has lost five times as well including this past Sunday. So, they're tied with five playoff losses.

Montana has four Super Bowl appearances and four Super Bowl victories for a perfect 100%. Brady has five Super Bowl appearances and three Super Bowl victories for 60%. That right there says it all. How can a player be considered better than a past player when they're 40% behind and can never match it?
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Don't underestimate the value of gameplan intel from illegal surveillance against an opponent.

Allegedly, Belichick knew the playcalls and signals against potentially every team the Pats played in the playoffs.
That's like giving an 'A' student an open book test. He's going to crush it.

I agree we will never know how much spygate affected the Pats early success under Brady. I tend to think it was the margin in 3 SB wins.

For the sake of Brady and Belichick's legacy, they HAVE TO WIN another SB.
Otherwise I think the spygate conspiracy comes to the forefront even more in their careers.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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Thats another factor - SPYGATE.

Sorry but I dont find it just a mere coincidence that since spygate came out back in 2007 that Brady and Belichick havent won their 4th Super Bowl together. To me, if they never win another one together, that proves that there was more than meets the eye in regards to their three Super Bowl titles.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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I'm not punishing Brady for taking his team to the Super Bowl. I'm punishing him for NOT winning the Super Bowl the last two times. Sorry but I dont see how if Brady ties Montana, he automatically becomes better than Montana. To me, he wouldnt even be tied and even if by some miracle, Brady wins 5 championships, I still wouldnt consider him better because it took him 7 chances to get to 5. Who's to say that if Montana went to three more Super Bowls, that he wouldnt have won it three more times. It's all about being clutch in the biggest game in the sport, something that Brady is not, at least not for the last two times. Its all about percentages. Montana is perfect. Never lost. Was clutch when he had to be.

Just like how most consider Jordan to be the best player in NBA history. Its NOT just because he was clutch, but it was because when he reached the finals, he never lost. Simply, you werent going to beat him. Montana was the same way. Call me a homer if you want but I dont see how anyone can say Brady would be better than Montana when A) unlike Montana, Brady lost in the Super Bowl, not once but twice, B) it took him two extra chances just to tie and C) wasnt clutch and threw interceptions which is something Montana never did in the Super Bowl.

With Montana, you could bet your entire life on him winning and you would go on living. With Brady, its a 50/50 shot at best. If Eli or Big Ben were to win four championships in four chances, I would easily put both ahead of Brady because quite simply, I just dont see how anyone can view Brady as better when he's not because unlike the others, he lost in the Super Bowl.

To be the best, you have to win when you get to the Super Bowl every time. Otherwise, you're not and shouldnt even be in the discussion.
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Yes...thats exactly what im saying. No one remembers who lost in the Super Bowl. Only the winner is remembered and can become a legend, the best, greatest, elite, etc. I'm a 49ers fan and if they lose to the Ravens, then yes, I would have preferred them to lose to the Falcons for several reasons.

Bottom line is that yes, Brady made it to the Super Bowl five times compared to four times for Montana but at the end of the day, Brady lost two of them while Montana NEVER LOST.

I'm sorry but I dont see how anyone can not see what im saying. Everyone views Peyton as one of the best and yeah, he is in the regular season. Playoff time, Eli is better and has already surpassed him, yet majority think Peyton is better. I dont see how.

When a team loses in the playoffs and yes, Montana lost in the playoffs five times including once with KC. Brady has lost five times as well including this past Sunday. So, they're tied with five playoff losses.

Montana has four Super Bowl appearances and four Super Bowl victories for a perfect 100%. Brady has five Super Bowl appearances and three Super Bowl victories for 60%. That right there says it all. How can a player be considered better than a past player when they're 40% behind and can never match it?
You don't honestly think you're right do you? I mean you can't be that dumb
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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No, no...he really does believe the **** that he spews lol
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