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Old 01-24-2013, 12:26 AM    (permalink
jsagan77
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Comparing QB's from different era's against different competition is impossible. There are far too many variables to consider to ever make a proper decision of who the GOAT is. If you hold positional stats to a premium guys like Manning, Marino, Brees, Favre, Moon, and Kelly flood the brain. These guys are/will be HOFers and were all great. All were more than capable of winning a SB (and most did). Then you have guys like Montana and Brady who have excelled in the post season. But at what point do we address luck into the equation? Brady is 3-2 in Sb's but could just as easily be 5-0 or 0-5. The difference between them is Brady has not had teams or weapons on par with Montana and that's why I think Brady is the best. Give him a good all round team and he 's damn near unbeatable, where as I think Montana was fortunate to be very good and have the team around him to go un beaten in Sb's. Brady had a great D around him for 3 but had a suspect D for 2 and despite being clutch and putting his team up late in the game his opponent got the ball last and cemented his bust in canton with two victories.

It's hard to compare QB's but for the money, I'd take Brady over any QB in existence given the same overall team. No one has been better even with losing two SB's. just imagine if he had a Jerry Rice his entire career and a Taylor. Imagine the records. If he had that D montana had, Imagine the championships. I just think he's the pinacle with Montan being a close 1b.

My all time list.

1a. Brady
1b. Montana
3a. Peyton
3b. Marino (my bad I was hammered writing this)
5. Elway (though I think Rodgers will overtake this spot soon)


The biggest problem for me is where do Graham, Baugh and such fit into the equation? Could they be the GOAT? Judging players from different era's is impossible to me but maybe someone can quantify it.

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Old 01-24-2013, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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Especially Montana's first SB, if you look at the 49ers roster and who they beat to get to the playoffs and who they beat once they got there, the 49ers weren't always the best team on the field on paper.

The '81 and '88 49ers teams weren't dominating squads, but they were champions.

The 49ers also had three consecutive one and done in the playoffs under Montana.
Yes the 1989 49ers squad may have been the best football team in NFL history, but that wasn't the team Montana played with his entire career.

The only thing IMO Montana has that Brady doesn't is a true elite #1 WR, and yes that would make all the difference in the world for a QB like Brady.

Anyway, I just can't put Peyton in the same category with these guys.
Close, but not quite.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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Brady I will say, has had the benefit of playing in a much easier era in regards to safety and leverage of the overall game which is skewed more towards the offensive side of the ball. Montana didn't have this luxury at least.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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You don't honestly think you're right do you? I mean you can't be that dumb
More like everyone else cant be that dumb and should go back to school because obviously everyone here failed math. If Montana is perfect (100%) and Brady isnt (60%) and can never be perfect since you know, he LOST, not once but TWICE, how ISNT Montana better?

Quite honestly, I would put Montana 1A and Bradshaw 1B because also like Montana, he went to four Super Bowls and NEVER LOST!!!

People can call me a homer for Montana but his record backs up what im saying. Its not me making it up. People say Brady, Peyton but give me a break, all these guys are nothing more than pretenders to the throne and I dont even need to say or defend it because their inferior record says it for me.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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Spygate might be a factor, but I also just don't think many of the more recent Patriots teams are as good as the were during the dynasty time. The defense just isn't at the same level. Brady is much much better/more advanced but the teams aren't as good overall in my eyes.

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More like everyone else cant be that dumb and should go back to school because obviously everyone here failed math. If Montana is perfect (100%) and Brady isnt (60%) and can never be perfect since you know, he LOST, not once but TWICE, how ISNT Montana better?

Quite honestly, I would put Montana 1A and Bradshaw 1B because also like Montana, he went to four Super Bowls and NEVER LOST!!!

People can call me a homer for Montana but his record backs up what im saying. Its not me making it up. People say Brady, Peyton but give me a break, all these guys are nothing more than pretenders to the throne and I dont even need to say or defend it because their inferior record says it for me.
I assume you have to be trollin' at this point with the Bradshaw comment. I think Montana is better than Brady, but the throne crap and terrible math is just tragically awful.

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Yes...thats exactly what im saying. No one remembers who lost in the Super Bowl. Only the winner is remembered and can become a legend, the best, greatest, elite, etc. I'm a 49ers fan and if they lose to the Ravens, then yes, I would have preferred them to lose to the Falcons for several reasons.
That is just some weak **** right there. If the Ravens lose I will still be damn happy and very proud my team got to the Superbowl.

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Comparing QB's from different era's against different competition is impossible.
This a million times over. It doesn't really work to compare between eras. It is a waste of time to argue things that are apples to oranges most of the time. I only think its fair to argue guys in the same time frame.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:29 AM    (permalink
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Quite honestly, I would put Montana 1A and Bradshaw 1B because also like Montana, he went to four Super Bowls and NEVER LOST!!!
This doesn't make sense. The number of Super Bowl rings you have doesn't necessarily mean you were the best player. That's like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl. Terry Bradshaw was not even the best quarterback of his era arguably.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:23 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Comparing QB's from different era's against different competition is impossible. There are far too many variables to consider to ever make a proper decision of who the GOAT is. If you hold positional stats to a premium guys like Manning, Marino, Brees, Favre, Moon, and Kelly flood the brain. These guys are/will be HOFers and were all great. All were more than capable of winning a SB (and most did). Then you have guys like Montana and Brady who have excelled in the post season. But at what point do we address luck into the equation? Brady is 3-2 in Sb's but could just as easily be 5-0 or 0-5. The difference between them is Brady has not had teams or weapons on par with Montana and that's why I think Brady is the best. Give him a good all round team and he 's damn near unbeatable, where as I think Montana was fortunate to be very good and have the team around him to go un beaten in Sb's. Brady had a great D around him for 3 but had a suspect D for 2 and despite being clutch and putting his team up late in the game his opponent got the ball last and cemented his bust in canton with two victories.

It's hard to compare QB's but for the money, I'd take Brady over any QB in existence given the same overall team. No one has been better even with losing two SB's. just imagine if he had a Jerry Rice his entire career and a Taylor. Imagine the records. If he had that D montana had, Imagine the championships. I just think he's the pinacle with Montana being a close 1b.

My all time list.

1a. Brady
1b. Montana
3a. Peyton
3b. Montana
5. Elway (though I think Rodgers will overtake this spot soon)


The biggest problem for me is where do Graham, Baugh and such fit into the equation? Could they be the GOAT? Judging players from different era's is impossible to me but maybe someone can quantify it.
No RG3? I'm shocked.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:28 AM    (permalink
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Still the GOAT.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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Terry Bradshaw gets NO love. A shame.
The man was widely regarded as the best QB of the 1970s, but now he's just a JAG QB on a dynasty squad.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:03 AM    (permalink
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Brady I will say, has had the benefit of playing in a much easier era in regards to safety and leverage of the overall game which is skewed more towards the offensive side of the ball. Montana didn't have this luxury at least.
True, but Montana did play in an era without free agency and the salary cap thus making it easier to build a dynasty.

Can you imagine having that team nowadays.

Joe Montana would want the highest contract of all time. Jerry Rice would be the highest paid WR. Ronnie Lott would likely be the highest paid defensive player. Roger Craig is going to want major bank too.

No team could afford to pay all these stars in his era, it's just a fact.

It's why it's hard to compare different players in different eras.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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Someone tell jsagan he has Montana listed TWICE on his alltime list!!
I agree with his double counting. Joe Montana was awesome.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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True, but Montana did play in an era without free agency and the salary cap thus making it easier to build a dynasty.

Can you imagine having that team nowadays.

Joe Montana would want the highest contract of all time. Jerry Rice would be the highest paid WR. Ronnie Lott would likely be the highest paid defensive player. Roger Craig is going to want major bank too.

No team could afford to pay all these stars in his era, it's just a fact.

It's why it's hard to compare different players in different eras.
But Montana had to play against teams that were also able to keep their star studded roster like the Giants and Bears of the 1980's. Earlier in Montana's career, at least on the offensive side of the ball if you look at the rosters of the first two Super Bowl teams, he isn't exactly throwing to megastars.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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But Montana had to play against teams that were also able to keep their star studded roster like the Giants and Bears of the 1980's. Earlier in Montana's career, at least on the offensive side of the ball if you look at the rosters of the first two Super Bowl teams, he isn't exactly throwing to megastars.
But QB wins out. I don't think anyone is denying Montana is either the all time greatest or at worst 2nd best. Put a great QB on a very good team and I would take that team over a very good QB on a great team.

However the fact there was no cap or no free agency meant the amount of teams who could challenge were limited. Nowadays any team can go from worst to first in a year or two.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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No, no...he really does believe the **** that he spews lol
No way man, give him more credit than that.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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No RG3? I'm shocked.
He's only a rookie. In 20 years I expect him to overtake the world.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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Spygate might be a factor, but I also just don't think many of the more recent Patriots teams are as good as the were during the dynasty time. The defense just isn't at the same level. Brady is much much better/more advanced but the teams aren't as good overall in my eyes.

I assume you have to be trollin' at this point with the Bradshaw comment. I think Montana is better than Brady, but the throne crap and terrible math is just tragically awful.

That is just some weak **** right there. If the Ravens lose I will still be damn happy and very proud my team got to the Superbowl.

This a million times over. It doesn't really work to compare between eras. It is a waste of time to argue things that are apples to oranges most of the time. I only think its fair to argue guys in the same time frame.
Patriots not having as good of a defense isnt Montana's fault. Brady wants to have a better defense, then he should tell Belichick who's a defensive coach. They've had at least five years to replace those old guys and they still havent done so. Cant use that as a reason especially like Ness said, Montana didnt have megastars his first two championships. Brady has had an all star team around him in the first four Super Bowls and last year, his team was still second best in the league. Everyone is just looking for excuses for Brady. The last two Super Bowls, Brady was average at best and wasnt clutch whatsoever unlike the first three Super Bowls.

The Bradshaw point was made because Super Bowl and championship wise, how could any other QB be ahead of Montana and Bradshaw? They both won four and never lost. Its amazing how people think that despite LOSING in the Super Bowl, you can still be considered better than those who never lost. Sorry but I dont understand that and I dont like Bradshaw whatsoever but hey, he never lost in the Super Bowl. Have to respect him for that.

The throne stuff was maybe going overboard but the math stuff is legitimate. How can I be the only one here that sees this? Montana is 4 for 4 which is 100%, Brady is 3 for 5 which is 60%. Thats not me making up crap. Thats what it is. Its fact, not fiction.

As for my beloved 49ers, im happy that they're in the Super Bowl but I'll absolutely positively be pissed if they lose because their undefeated streak is gone. Only positive is that the Ravens are actually my second favorite team after the 49ers. I have cheered for them since 2000. Thats why I love this Super Bowl. If Ravens win, I'll be pissed but not as much as if it was the Patriots who I honestly hate and stopped respecting after the whole SpyGate thing because it cant just be a coincidence that they havent won a Super Bowl since the 2004 season. If 49ers lose, im just hoping that KAP has a good game and has momentum going into 2013.

The era argument is a good one. My friend likes to say Montana best of 80's and Brady best of the 2000's.

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This doesn't make sense. The number of Super Bowl rings you have doesn't necessarily mean you were the best player. That's like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl. Terry Bradshaw was not even the best quarterback of his era arguably.
True but the difference is that Montana/Bradshaw were the main reasons why they won the Super Bowl. Dilfer wasnt the reason. Huge difference.

My argument is that majority says that if Brady wins 4, he's better than Montana and when it comes to winning AND losing Super Bowls, im sorry but I dont see how that's possible. You can take other factors into consideration but im taking the Super Bowl as really the only thing because it doesnt matter how you did otherwise.

Look at Peyton, people think he's the greatest but I'll never understand why. Granted, he's awesome in the regular season but come playoff time, he's not clutch at all and was the reason the Colts lost the Super Bowl to the Saints and WASNT the reason they won against the Bears. Dominic Rhodes was the reason they won.

Thats why im saying what im saying. I'm taking just the Super Bowl which is what every player, HC, etc. strives to get to AND win it into consideration. And since the QB gets the praise if the team wins and blame if they lose regardless if its their fault or not for the outcome, I look at what QB's guided their team to the championship in the Super Bowl.

Montana is a perfect 4 for 4 as is Bradshaw who I dont even like or care for but you look at how he played, he played damn good and you can say that while he may not was the best QB of his era, Super Bowl wise, it would be difficult to say the same.

Currently, the closest QB that could match and surpass Montana would be Eli. He's 2-0 in the Super Bowl and while he's the opposite of Peyton during the regular season, he's also the opposite of Peyton during the playoffs which is far more important. In the Giants last two Super Bowl championships, it was pretty much all Eli. Eli is as clutch as clutch can be in the playoffs and Super Bowl which is what its all about. Doesnt matter if you go undefeeated in the regular season or sneak in at 8-8, as the QB, if you step up in the playoffs and lead your team to a championship especially when no one thinks that you have a shot in hell in doing so, that makes you better than most and can, in time, eventually pass others like Montana who are considered best of the best.

If Eli was to go 4-0 in the Super Bowl, I would say he's tied with Montana or 1B. Obviously, im not going to say any QB is better than Montana for various reasons but the main one is that until someone surpasses him and gets to 5-0, seriously, how can anyone be viewed as better when they didnt/couldnt even match what he did?
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Bradshaw is clearly better than Montana. Both 100% in Super Bowls, but Bradshaw has a higher playoff win percentage. Can't argue with that math.

Bradshaw > Montana
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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But QB wins out. I don't think anyone is denying Montana is either the all time greatest or at worst 2nd best. Put a great QB on a very good team and I would take that team over a very good QB on a great team.

However the fact there was no cap or no free agency meant the amount of teams who could challenge were limited. Nowadays any team can go from worst to first in a year or two.
QB wins out. In regards to what? What do you mean by that?

Anyways, yes there was no cap or free agency. That is one advantage that the 49ers and other dominant teams of the era had. At the same time, the 49ers still had to go up against those teams in the playoffs.

Let's also no forget about what I said earlier. The offense has leverage today like it never had before. Not just in rule changes where more quarterbacks than ever before are throwing for 5000 yards and 40+ touchdowns every single year, but protection wise as well. Montana and every other quarterback back in those days took a ridiculous amount of punishment that would result in way more flags and fines and now and days. It would be interesting to see Joe Montana perform in today's era and Tom Brady in yesteryear's.

And that isn't to knock Brady. I'm a fan of him. Both players did play in different eras and did have advantages and disadvantages of the times.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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True but the difference is that Montana/Bradshaw were the main reasons why they won the Super Bowl. Dilfer wasnt the reason. Huge difference.
I haven't seen all of the Steelers Super Bowls, so I can't verify if Bradshaw did dominate every single contest. His numbers in a couple of them don't necessarily lead credence to that notion, but again, I haven't seem them in context. I could just someone else though. Ken Stabler has one Super Bowl ring, and was one of the best quarterbacks of the 1970's with the Raiders. Does that make him a better quarterback than Dan Marino who didn't win one ring?

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My argument is that majority says that if Brady wins 4, he's better than Montana and when it comes to winning AND losing Super Bowls, im sorry but I dont see how that's possible. You can take other factors into consideration but im taking the Super Bowl as really the only thing because it doesnt matter how you did otherwise.

Look at Peyton, people think he's the greatest but I'll never understand why. Granted, he's awesome in the regular season but come playoff time, he's not clutch at all and was the reason the Colts lost the Super Bowl to the Saints and WASNT the reason they won against the Bears. Dominic Rhodes was the reason they won.

Thats why im saying what im saying. I'm taking just the Super Bowl which is what every player, HC, etc. strives to get to AND win it into consideration. And since the QB gets the praise if the team wins and blame if they lose regardless if its their fault or not for the outcome, I look at what QB's guided their team to the championship in the Super Bowl.

Montana is a perfect 4 for 4 as is Bradshaw who I dont even like or care for but you look at how he played, he played damn good and you can say that while he may not was the best QB of his era, Super Bowl wise, it would be difficult to say the same.

Currently, the closest QB that could match and surpass Montana would be Eli. He's 2-0 in the Super Bowl and while he's the opposite of Peyton during the regular season, he's also the opposite of Peyton during the playoffs which is far more important. In the Giants last two Super Bowl championships, it was pretty much all Eli. Eli is as clutch as clutch can be in the playoffs and Super Bowl which is what its all about. Doesnt matter if you go undefeeated in the regular season or sneak in at 8-8, as the QB, if you step up in the playoffs and lead your team to a championship especially when no one thinks that you have a shot in hell in doing so, that makes you better than most and can, in time, eventually pass others like Montana who are considered best of the best.

If Eli was to go 4-0 in the Super Bowl, I would say he's tied with Montana or 1B. Obviously, im not going to say any QB is better than Montana for various reasons but the main one is that until someone surpasses him and gets to 5-0, seriously, how can anyone be viewed as better when they didnt/couldnt even match what he did?
So if Tom Brady wins another Super Bowl and goes 4-2 overall compared to 4-0, you believe that that still wouldn't put Brady in the conversation? That doesn't really make sense. Every year you try to get as far as you can. Getting to six Super Bowls would be more than anyone ever has.

Personally I don't like to just compare those two because they played in different eras, but the logic you are using to compare both of them is kind of ridiculous.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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So if Tom Brady wins another Super Bowl and goes 4-2 overall compared to 4-0, you believe that that still wouldn't put Brady in the conversation? That doesn't really make sense. Every year you try to get as far as you can. Getting to six Super Bowls would be more than anyone ever has.

Personally I don't like to just compare those two because they played in different eras, but the logic you are using to compare both of them is kind of ridiculous.
My logic is ridiculous but its not ridiculous for those who compare Brady to Montana NOW and im sure that there's many people who think that Brady is better just because he went to five Super Bowls and dont even take the wins and losses from the Super Bowl into account. Saying a player is better just because he made it to more Super Bowls than someone who made it to one less but yet never loss is ridiculous.

I'll give you the different eras argument but even if Brady wins another Super Bowl (which he wont), he'll continue to be in the conversation just like he is now but in terms of surpassing Montana, that can never happen. Technically, he can never ever match Montana let alone surpass him.

And Brady can win four and five championships and yes, you can say that he won more than Montana but at the same time, it took him more chances to do so and unlike Montana, he also lost in a few of those chances.

Montana has four championships and is undefeated. Brady has three and LOST two of them. Sorry but to me, comparing a two time Super Bowl LOSER to a guy who has four and NEVER lost in the Super Bowl shouldnt even be a comparison. Seriously, how can you compare who's the best when those who people consider the best LOST? I dont understand that and honestly, never will but hey, to each his/her own.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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My logic is ridiculous but its not ridiculous for those who compare Brady to Montana NOW and im sure that there's many people who think that Brady is better just because he went to five Super Bowls and dont even take the wins and losses from the Super Bowl into account. Saying a player is better just because he made it to more Super Bowls than someone who made it to one less but yet never loss is ridiculous.
But I was just talking about your reasoning. Not anyone else's.

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I'll give you the different eras argument but even if Brady wins another Super Bowl (which he wont), he'll continue to be in the conversation just like he is now but in terms of surpassing Montana, that can never happen. Technically, he can never ever match Montana let alone surpass him.

And Brady can win four and five championships and yes, you can say that he won more than Montana but at the same time, it took him more chances to do so and unlike Montana, he also lost in a few of those chances.

Montana has four championships and is undefeated. Brady has three and LOST two of them. Sorry but to me, comparing a two time Super Bowl LOSER to a guy who has four and NEVER lost in the Super Bowl shouldnt even be a comparison. Seriously, how can you compare who's the best when those who people consider the best LOST? I dont understand that and honestly, never will but hey, to each his/her own.
He can never pass Montana in terms of what? Winning Super Bowls? Sure he can. It wouldn't be farfetched for the Patriots to win two more Super Bowls before Tom Brady retires. He mentioned somewhere that he wants to play until he's 40. I think he's 35 now. Two Super Bowls within these next five seasons for the Patriots I can see happening.

Again, if Brady wins a 4th ring, I don't see how going to 4 Super Bowls and winning them is better than going to 6 Super Bowls and losing two of them. You are supposed to get as far as you can. Anyone that would try to argue against that could just be shot down if you were to say that Montana and his teams lost in the NFC Championship instead of getting to two more Super Bowls like Brady did (this is all assuming Brady wins another ring of course).
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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I think Brady has done so much more with so many less weapons than any QB in history, that's why I think he is the goat. And when he does have weapons he's breaking records. Even the two SB's he lost there wasn't much more that he could do. Most of the time SB's come down to the wire regardless of who's playing and it just so happens the Pats left too much time on the clock for their horrific secondary's to hold. That's not on Brady. He's the ultimate QB. Great in the clutch, great in both seasons. Montana was 5-0 but he never wrecked the record books like Brady and never had to worry about lOsing his stars because of a salary cap.

It's close but that's why I give Brady the edge.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:36 AM    (permalink
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I think Brady has done so much more with so many less weapons than any QB in history, that's why I think he is the goat. And when he does have weapons he's breaking records. Even the two SB's he lost there wasn't much more that he could do. Most of the time SB's come down to the wire regardless of who's playing and it just so happens the Pats left too much time on the clock for their horrific secondary's to hold. That's not on Brady. He's the ultimate QB. Great in the clutch, great in both seasons. Montana was 5-0 but he never wrecked the record books like Brady and never had to worry about lOsing his stars because of a salary cap.

It's close but that's why I give Brady the edge.
My friend, look at the first two Super Bowl rosters for the 49ers and tell me what megastars Montana was utilizing. Or Brett Favre in the 1990's.

Also, Brady is setting records and producing big time numbers. So is every other big time quarterback in the NFL. We need to take this with a grain of salt. Sure it looks great on paper, but in the context of the rule changes which provide offensive leverage in terms of design and also better safety, it's not surprising Brees, Brady, Stafford are throwing for 5000 yards and 40 plus touchdowns every other season. Defensive backs are more hesitant than ever to light up a dude and receivers aren't terrified to go across the middle.

I'll give you some leeway with the salary cap card, but like I said earlier, Montana and the 49ers squad still had to face other teams that also didn't lose their stars every single season like the Giants, Bears, or Redskins.

If you like Brady better as a player that is fine, but I'm just saying I think your reasoning for why you believe Brady is the superior player has some holes in it. I do think Montana would have still had injury issues in today's NFL.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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My friend, look at the first two Super Bowl rosters for the 49ers and tell me what megastars Montana was utilizing.
Freddie Solomon was one of the best wide receivers in the league and was held back statistically by Montana's inconsistency on the deep ball. Wendell Tyler, apart from the fumbles, was one of the best running backs in the league. Roger Craig was a helluva complimentary back on that 84 team. The 49ers were never better on the offensive line than in the early-to-mid 80s...in particular with the dominant right side of Cross/Fahnhorst. Russ Francis was a great blocking tight end.

The defenses on those two teams were excellent. The worst defensive outing in terms of points allowed in any of the championship years also coincided with Montana throwing 3 interceptions (Dallas, 1981).

When your defense gives up just 26 total points in 3 games, as they did in 1984 and 1989, or 28, as they did in 1988, you're probably going to do pretty well.

That said, the Brady excuses don't work. The Patriots lost those Super Bowls because they failed on offense.

I don't believe in judging on postseason success, anyway. Judge quarterbacks on which ones make the best decisions and throw the most accurate passes.

Unfortunately, that would require people to do more than just quote a bunch of stats or count Super Bowl rings.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Brady vs Montana? What about unitas? oh im sorry nvm, ill just do like everyone else and use numberzzzzz. come on seriously i feel like we're never getting any smarter around here, it can be a bit frustrating.


Montana had walsh, a progressive coach who was ahead of the rest of the pack.
Brady has Belichick, a progressive thinking coach who is also ahead of the competition.
you gunna say bart starr didnt benefit greatly from lombardi?

i started the trap qbs thread and played devils advocate, but my feeling is this: teams win championships. stop saying 'brady won 3 championships' or 'montana won 4' because thats horse****, they both had plenty of help on both sides of the ball, its rediculous to claim otherwise.

i mean, freaking namath gets all the credit in the world for his SB guarentee, but very rarely is it ever mentioned that his defense played out of its mind that game and was just as much if not more so important to his words holding up.
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