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Old 01-24-2013, 12:07 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
He's a 11 mill per year player. Maybe 12.

Quite honestly, I feel he's worth the money.
Number that's getting thrown around is 16/year, which is ridiculous.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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I read that his current contract prevents them from using the Franchise or Transition tags, so it's not just a money issue. He has to want to stay with the Jets.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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Qb MONEY!!

I guess they are justifying it as he can take away the opposing teams second best option...first being the Qb...for some teams a very few, 3rd option cause of rbs.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
He's a 11 mill per year player. Maybe 12.

Quite honestly, I feel he's worth the money.
I think he would certainly be worth that amount as well (but that's not what he's asking for). Really, I would think he's worth even more. However, considering our cap situation and the lack of talent across the board on our roster, it would seem to be in our best interests to get as much as possible for him now. Otherwise, I really doubt we can field a sustainable, competitive roster going forward, no matter how well we draft. They've messed up. It would serve to reason to trade one of your best trading chips to help in the rebuilding process. It's sort of like what I think when I see the Mariners and Felix Hernandez. Granted, scouting in baseball is much more of a crapshoot and the Mariners aren't very good at it, but sometimes you just have to cut your losses rather than settle for being "pretty good" for the next five years.

That being said... I would still like to keep Revis and do hope he retires with the Jets.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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I would be surprised if Revis signs his new contract with anyone and it's less than 5/75m. $15m for a CB is a lot even though he is the best and possibly the best defensive player in the game
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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I think more than $14M/year for any player that doesn't pass, protect the passer, or rush the passer is stupid. Eli Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger have all won multiple Super Bowls, and none of them average more than $16M/year. No way should a corner get $15M+ per year. Hell in that context anything more than $12-$13M seems ridiculous.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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I give 14m a year to qb, DE, and CB. That's it.

I would not give that kind of money to any OLmen. They're way overrated. If you have a 14m qb, you don't need a 14 m LT.

Ideally you want to spend that money at QB and DE. But for a guy like Revis, and what he does, he's absolutely worth that money at CB.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
I think more than $14M/year for any player that doesn't pass, protect the passer, or rush the passer is stupid. Eli Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger have all won multiple Super Bowls, and none of them average more than $16M/year. No way should a corner get $15M+ per year. Hell in that context anything more than $12-$13M seems ridiculous.
If Revis isn't worth $14m+ no offensive tackle in NFL is worth more that that. And probably only a few pass rushers.

EDIT: What BBD said.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't dish out 14mil or more for any CB. This isn't like basketball were one superstar can change your fortunes. I'd rather have a solid duo of CBs and invest more on the pass rush than pay a CB a **** ton of money and suck everywhere else.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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I would normally agree, bc even the best of the best CBs can't completely blank the opposition's #1, but Revis is special. A once in every 10 years type of CB. He can do that.

You can literally put Revis on Megatron 1 on 1 all game with no help and blank him. Think about what that does for you schematically, and how much impact that has on your gameplan.

You know why Rex's blitzes work so well? He basically dares you throw at Revis. It's not rocket science. He overloads you, and Revis's cover is the hot. So you have to throw at Revis. And Revis shuts anyone and everyone down, so you can't throw to your hot bc Revis is on him, and you have to get it out fast bc the blitz is breathing down your throat.

That puts the qb in a pretty tough situation.

Revis really is that damn good. If it was any other CB we're talking about, I wouldn't do it. But for Revis, and what he does in this era of passing, and how he impacts a gameplan and how he can completely shut down anyone and everyone, I pay that money.

You can't put a price on that kind of coverage. He's special. First ballot HOF special. Deion Sanders special.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse with it, I just strongly feel Revis is that good. I can understand why some would trade him or not want to pay him. And I respect those opinions.

I just personally wouldn't do it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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We had this conversation the last time he got a contract, and I haven't moved from what I thought then.

We're talking about a 14 mil cap hit for the best corner in the league. That's so much.

For 14 mil of my cap this year, I can probably get Greg Toler, Michael Johnson, and Jairus Byrd. That's an underrated, above-average corner, a legit pass rush threat, and a pro bowl safety.

Or without a tag, Joe Flacco. Top ten QB.

Or without a tag, Henry Melton and Chris Houston. Top 5 DT and one of the best corners in the league last season.

I don't need the top corner if he costs as much as 4-5 "pretty good" players. I'll go for the better all-around roster than the one with 2 or 3 superstars and some JAGs.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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I thought Michael Johnson was disappointing?

And wasn't Chris Houston trash?
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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[QUOTEd Chris Houston. one of the best corners in the league last season.[/quote]

This made me LOL
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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I thought Michael Johnson was disappointing?
He went into the draft as a guy most of us thought would need some time. He had 3 crappy years, but he arrived last season. He got to the QB pretty regularly.

Quote:
And wasn't Chris Houston trash?
Used to be, back in 2010. In 2011, he was average. Now, he's good. I don't know what Detroit's DB coach did, but it was right.

http://sidelionreport.com/2013/01/17...r-of-the-year/

Outdated opinions are why these guys are gong to be undervalued. Another example: someone is going to pay Jermon Bushrod about a billion dollars, even though he's average. I'll take King Dunlap at a third or even a fourth of his price.

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Old 01-24-2013, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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But still, all of those players together aren't going to effect the game the same way Darrelle Revis can. And you're not going to win with a team of cheap above average players, eventually you're going to have to actually spend some of it, why not do it on Revis?
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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But still, all of those players together aren't going to effect the game the same way Darrelle Revis can. And you're not going to win with a team of cheap above average players, eventually you're going to have to actually spend some of it, why not do it on Revis?
I think every scenario I had there is at least double the impact for the same money.

Some of the guys I mentioned are merely above average, but some of them are much closer to the top of the league. I'd save by getting a bunch of good players that are undervalued solely because people have preconceived incorrect notions about them, they were in bad situations, or they just don't get press. My big money goes to positions that are really tough to draft and develop, like my QB (who I probably sign when someone else franchise tags him) and a true #1 WR.

Corner is important, but it's being massively overrated here. He only shuts down the top option out of the 4 or 5 a QB has in the passing game. I'll take 3 "pretty good" corners and 2 "pretty good" safeties over one Revis, one superstar safety, two JAG corners and another JAG safety for sure...all for the same amount of cap.

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Old 01-24-2013, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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My thing is this. I can find all those other guys in the draft. And they'll be very cheap.

What's the chances I'm gonna find a first ballot HOF CB that's the best we've seen since Deion Sanders in the draft? Slim to none.

When you find a talent like that, you don't trade it for a couple of draft picks. We way overrate draft picks on this forum. You're getting 2 cents on the dollar for any Revis trade you make.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Revis will only count about $6 million against the cap next year.
If that's the case, then couldn't you franchise tag him for several years?

2013 - the 6m (assuming that is correct).
2014 - ~$10.6m (CB franchise number for this year, presumably it wouldn't change muchi n a year.)
2015 - ~$12.72m (the 10.6 franchise # x 1.2 for a repeated franchise tag.)
2016 - ~$15.26m (12.72 x 1.2 for repeated franchise tag)

This adds up to 4 years & 44m overall. Assuming you can get past his fury over being franchise tagged. But its an option if he decides he's worth ~16m and won't take a penny less.

By this point, he'll be 31 at the start of the 2017 season, and you could negotiate a contract with that in mind.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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This discussion is why bbd's Moneyball thread was way more relevant than its commenters gave it credit. I have no desire to make a long post about it, so that's why I never got back to it, but it's about the efficiency with which you can spend that 14 mill. If you can use a portion of your budget to make your team as good as another team using all of its budget, you can then use that 14 million on one great player, like Revis, instead of on three slightly above average players like Toler, Johnson, and whoever else Mono mentioned. That's what Moneyball is.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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I think every scenario I had there is at least double the impact for the same money.

Some of the guys I mentioned are merely above average, but some of them are much closer to the top of the league. I'd save by getting a bunch of good players that are undervalued solely because people have preconceived incorrect notions about them, they were in bad situations, or they just don't get press. My big money goes to positions that are really tough to draft and develop, like my QB (who I probably sign when someone else franchise tags him) and a true #1 WR.

Corner is important, but it's being massively overrated here. He only shuts down the top option out of the 4 or 5 a QB has in the passing game. I'll take 3 "pretty good" corners and 2 "pretty good" safeties over one Revis, one superstar safety, two JAG corners and another JAG safety for sure...all for the same amount of cap.
Well I disagree.

I'd much rather have Revis for $14M and three $2M players than just four $5M players. In the end, the difference in talent between the $2M players and the $5M players isn't going to be that much, but Revis gives you something no other player can.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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This discussion is why bbd's Moneyball thread was way more relevant than its commenters gave it credit. I have no desire to make a long post about it, so that's why I never got back to it, but it's about the efficiency with which you can spend that 14 mill. If you can use a portion of your budget to make your team as good as another team using all of its budget, you can then use that 14 million on one great player, like Revis, instead of on three slightly above average players like Toler, Johnson, and whoever else Mono mentioned. That's what Moneyball is.
Eh, my threads don't generate the same responses they used to. People don't like me anymore :(
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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My thing is this. I can find all those other guys in the draft. And they'll be very cheap.

What's the chances I'm gonna find a first ballot HOF CB that's the best we've seen since Deion Sanders in the draft? Slim to none.

When you find a talent like that, you don't trade it for a couple of draft picks. We way overrate draft picks on this forum. You're getting 2 cents on the dollar for any Revis trade you make.
What are the chances you find a huge CB bust in the draft? Better than 70%, maybe? There are so many undervalued guys in the NFL, it's ridiculous.

My team-building philosophy is a lot different from most people's. I don't believe in taking running backs in the first three rounds unless they look truly special; like Barry Sanders special. I don't believe in spending big money in my defensive backfield. I think signing a franchise-tagged QB is usually better than using a first round pick on one. I think the first two rounds are the place I want to build my O and D lines from. I'd spend the big money portion of my cap on QB, WR, and perhaps any D line spot I haven't managed to draft well at. Those are where I want elite guys; not developmental draft picks, or merely "good" players.

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This discussion is why bbd's Moneyball thread was way more relevant than its commenters gave it credit. I have no desire to make a long post about it, so that's why I never got back to it, but it's about the efficiency with which you can spend that 14 mill. If you can use a portion of your budget to make your team as good as another team using all of its budget, you can then use that 14 million on one great player, like Revis, instead of on three slightly above average players like Toler, Johnson, and whoever else Mono mentioned. That's what Moneyball is.
His Moneyball thread was not about Moneyball.

Again, those guys are not slightly above average. The only above average guy I mentioned was Toler. I also believe in spending big money on certain guys. I just think doing it for a corner is a good way to lose a lot. 14 mil on a single corner is about as inefficient as you can get.

Say I'm Cleveland or Oakland or whatever. I'd give Baltimore two first rounders and Joe Flacco $14 mil of my cap space long before I give it to Revis. It's even worse for the Jets, since they have no cap to work with and no core to build a team around.

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Old 01-24-2013, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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What are the chances you find a huge CB bust in the draft? Better than 70%, maybe? There are so many undervalued guys in the NFL, it's ridiculous.

My team-building philosophy is a lot different from most people's. I don't believe in taking running backs in the first three rounds unless they look truly special; like Barry Sanders special. I don't believe in spending big money in my defensive backfield. I think signing a franchise-tagged QB is usually better than using a first round pick on one. I think the first two rounds are the place I want to build my O and D lines from. I'd spend the big money portion of my cap on QB, WR, TE, and any D line spot I haven't managed to draft well at. Those are where I want elite guys; not developmental draft picks, or merely "good" players.
I agree with a lot of your philosophy actually. I dislike taking RBs high, I want to spend high picks on the DE, CB, and QB.

I want to spend big money on QB, DE, CB, and WR. Similar philosophies.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Eh, my threads don't generate the same responses they used to. People don't like me anymore :(
It's the NBA problem.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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It's the NBA problem.
I know. They don't realize how right I am yet.
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