Question Regarding the Senior Bowl Observations...

[Rashaan Salaam]

Originally Posted by whatadai

Matt Leinart?

He wasn't that good to begin with...

[brasho]

Originally Posted by whatadai

Matt Leinart?

We can ask the same question about Ken Dorsey, Matt Flynn, and Chris Weinke (can't remember who the Ohio St. QB was). Those guys were the QBs of excellent teams, but they were more or less caretakers. Caretakers might eventually be backups in the NFL. But I think if a college team's entire chance of success rides solely on the shoulders of a QB, meaning HE IS THE TEAM and that team is successful, then I think that QB has a shot at the NFL no matter what his poor qualities are.

This is why Ty Detmer was able to play so long in the NFL despite not having many/any NFL tools except work ethic and accuracy. Ty Detmer was his team. Roethlisberger was his team, so was Rivers, Matt Ryan was his team... these teams don't have anywhere close to the success they had with an average player at QB. I might feel differently towards CK if he was more of a Colt Brennan/Graham Harrell-type John Stockton point guard that merely executed long handoffs 0-10 yards of the line of scrimmage. This is why I believe CK will be successful, he was able to beat good teams by going down the field, by using his athleticism.

One thing that is really the great equalizer is the two-minute drill. All QBs everntually have to execute it and you can't execute a good one by dinking and dunking the whole time, a QB needs to push it down the field and no matter what system a guy is in, the plays are all very similar. Kaepernick was able to execute, Cam Newton was able to execute. This tells me that these guys have the tools to be NFL QBs. This doesn't mean they will but it means they are starting off with the tools they need to succeed.

Matt Leinart was basically the caretaker of a great USC team. He had a great OL, great WRs, and fantastic RBs...he was a lefthanded Ken Dorsey. I never saw what everybody else saw in him.

I know some people really slam small-school QBs but I'm more leery of the large school QBs. Of course the QBs coming from the big schools will have great stats and be able to throw down the field, they are getting blocked for by great players, throwing to great players, it isn't that hard to look good. It's the guys that DON'T play with a lot of talent around them and still produce that have a better shot at the NFL.

[Rashaan Salaam]

Originally Posted by brasho

We can ask the same question about Ken Dorsey, Matt Flynn, and Chris Weinke (can't remember who the Ohio St. QB was). Those guys were the QBs of excellent teams, but they were more or less caretakers. Caretakers might eventually be backups in the NFL. But I think if a college team's entire chance of success rides solely on the shoulders of a QB, meaning HE IS THE TEAM and that team is successful, then I think that QB has a shot at the NFL no matter what his poor qualities are.

This is why Ty Detmer was able to play so long in the NFL despite not having many/any NFL tools except work ethic and accuracy. Ty Detmer was his team. Roethlisberger was his team, so was Rivers, Matt Ryan was his team... these teams don't have anywhere close to the success they had with an average player at QB. I might feel differently towards CK if he was more of a Colt Brennan/Graham Harrell-type John Stockton point guard that merely executed long handoffs 0-10 yards of the line of scrimmage. This is why I believe CK will be successful, he was able to beat good teams by going down the field, by using his athleticism.

One thing that is really the great equalizer is the two-minute drill. All QBs everntually have to execute it and you can't execute a good one by dinking and dunking the whole time, a QB needs to push it down the field and no matter what system a guy is in, the plays are all very similar. Kaepernick was able to execute, Cam Newton was able to execute. This tells me that these guys have the tools to be NFL QBs. This doesn't mean they will but it means they are starting off with the tools they need to succeed.

Matt Leinart was basically the caretaker of a great USC team. He had a great OL, great WRs, and fantastic RBs...he was a lefthanded Ken Dorsey. I never saw what everybody else saw in him.

I know some people really slam small-school QBs but I'm more leery of the large school QBs. Of course the QBs coming from the big schools will have great stats and be able to throw down the field, they are getting blocked for by great players, throwing to great players, it isn't that hard to look good. It's the guys that DON'T play with a lot of talent around them and still produce that have a better shot at the NFL.

*standing ovation*

This is true... Always Trust what you see! I know I keep saying that..but, its SO critical

[yourfavestoner]

Also, Ken Dorsey was better than Matt Leinart.

[titansfan]

NFL people are now saying that Colin Kaepernick has been impressive this week, some saying that he's outperformed Jake Locker...


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...er-like-climb/

[titansfan]

And I think the people hating on Kaepernick are focusing waaaay too much on his throwing motion, and not enough of the results. You are crazy if you don't think he doesn't have NFL potential or talent... Thats clear.

He can be stud in the league. I would love to see him go to the Bills or Dolphins. I would take a chance on him in the 2nd before I would take a chance on Locker in the 1st.

I've noticed those who don't think Locker's weaknesses are that big of an issue were already big Locker fans. Looking at Kaepernick, not too many were fans of his, and he's changed the minds of so many NFL people. There is no question he has the potential the succeed at the next level. No question.

[brasho]

Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam

If you think Colin Kaepernick is Michael Vick or Randall Cunningham, you are going to be sorely mistaken.

And I'll make a prediction right now, he's going to have a good game. Just like Michael Robinson, Kaep will run a lot, make a few good passes and we will get criticized even more. That's fine, but he has been up and down all week. Poor pass, poor pass, great pass. Listen to the podcast today, I explain exactly what I am seeing and where he is faltering here. Guy is talented, no doubt. If he is developed correctly, could be a beast, but there is a lot more to go.

Scott also addresses this in his blog here: http://www.draftcountdown.com/featur...-Bowl-Blog.php

If you could get into a time machine and go back to the early 80's and watch Randall Cunningham, what do you think you would have said about him? Probably the same thing you are saying about Kaepernick. Cunningham's biggest criticisms as a young player were that he was raw, was uncomfortable in the pocket and was overly reliant on his legs, his whip-like release, and was wildly inconsistent when putting the ball in air. Then in year 2 he got a little playing time on 3rd downs...and the next season he was well on is way to becoming the NFL's Ultimate Weapon.

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I noted for most of the week that Locker was struggling with his accuracy...

As for Kaepernick, I don't know what people are seeing there. I stood there for 15 minutes today and watched him throw one bad ball after another with that sketchy throwing motion. Over heads, in the dirt, etc. I guarantee that kid won't be a successful NFL quarterback.

Oh, Scotty boy. The guy you guaranteed wouldn't be successful is one win away from taking his team to the SB in less than a full season as a starter, now let me get some more cowbell! Hey, it happens.

[G Mobile]

Is this bump really necessary? I'm glad Kaep is working out but I don't need every thread bumped so people can gloat.

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by G Mobile

Is this bump really necessary? I'm glad Kaep is working out but I don't need every thread bumped so people can gloat.

I don't know, is any thread really necessary? Just continuing the discussion as we now have more information in terms of how the prospect turned out. I think Kaeperick disproves the notion that you have to get it done a certain way. You just have to get it done, tattoos not withstanding.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the operative lesson is that ten scouts can watch one guy do the same thing and have ten different evaluations, 5 good and 5 bad. This is normal.

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I think the operative lesson is that ten scouts can watch one guy do the same thing and have ten different evaluations, 5 good and 5 bad. This is normal.

I agree, but to an extent. This is extreme. I wonder if all those Jake Locker supporters are still holding out hope?

[D-Unit]

I never thought Kaep was gonna be this good because his mechanics and acccuracy were always huge question marks. What he had was his size, running ability and strong arm. No one at the time of the Senior Bowl could've predicted that he would be drafted by the Niners and that John Harbaugh would be able to quickly correct his technique so well.

Makes me think Harbaugh could've fixed Vince Young.

Regardless, Kaep had easily identifiable flaws and a bad practice is a bad practice. If you want to call for crow on every wrong thing said about 100s of prospects every year, then you're gonna have one huge hell of a list. Even the best of the best NFL scouts and GMs get it wrong all the time. So what really is the point of this? Is there a grudge you have with Scott or something? Why are you trying to make him feel small?

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

I never thought Kaep was gonna be this good because his mechanics and acccuracy were always huge question marks. What he had was his size, running ability and strong arm. No one at the time of the Senior Bowl could've predicted that he would be drafted by the Niners and that John Harbaugh would be able to quickly correct his technique so well.

Makes me think Harbaugh could've fixed Vince Young.

Regardless, Kaep had easily identifiable flaws and a bad practice is a bad practice. If you want to call for crow on every wrong thing said about 100s of prospects every year, then you're gonna have one huge hell of a list. Even the best of the best NFL scouts and GMs get it wrong all the time. So what really is the point of this? Is there a grudge you have with Scott or something? Why are you trying to make him feel small?

Why are you taking this so seriously? A grudge?? If I had a grudge with him, I wouldn't be a member of his board. Calm down, there is no need to protect Scott. Keep in mind, he didn't just rate him low, he closed the door and said Kaep cannot play QB in the NFL. I have praised him as one of the best analyst out there and I still believe that. No one complains when I do that.

As far as Kaepernick, the notion that he is inaccurate was ALWAYS wrong. He didn't all of a sudden get accurate. In fact, someone called him the most accurate QB of the bunch at his senior bowl. The real reason he was knocked down was because of the system he came out of, the school he played at and IMO, his appearance. Don't fool, yourself, the niners didn't correct a thing with regard to his throwing motion, it still looks funky. And just remember the guys who went ahead of him in the first round. I don't think they were exactly flawless.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by Black Bolt

Why are you taking this so seriously? A grudge?? If I had a grudge with him, I wouldn't be a member of his board. Calm down, there is no need to protect Scott. Keep in mind, he didn't just rate him low, he closed the door and said Kaep cannot play QB in the NFL. I have praised him as one of the best analyst out there and I still believe that. No one complains when I do that.

As far as Kaepernick, the notion that he is inaccurate was ALWAYS wrong. He didn't all of a sudden get accurate. In fact, someone called him the most accurate QB of the bunch at his senior bowl. The real reason he was knocked down was because of the system he came out of, the school he played at and IMO, his appearance. Don't fool, yourself, the niners didn't correct a thing with regard to his throwing motion, it still looks funky. And just remember the guys who went ahead of him in the first round. I don't think they were exactly flawless.

I just don't get why people dig random stuff up other than to make others feel small. Whether it be Scott or anyone else. Don't act like you're not serious about this. You have obviously been harboring these feelings for a while and bad enough that you remembered that this thread even existed. Wow. Impressive.

Oh and I guess we were all wrong again in regards to his accuracy. You're RIGHT again! Way to go, bro! You win.

[FUNBUNCHER]

It does come off like gloating. I don't know how anyone could look at Kaepernick's games at Nevada and see a particularly accurate QB. He never even completed 60+% of his passes until his senior year and Nevada's passing attack isn't what you would call sophisticated on the college level.

To evaluate a prospect fairly, you have to look at both his negatives AND his positives. Scott did this IMO. After the final evaluation he saw more question marks than known quantities...that's how it goes.

No matter how long you do this, it's still one of the most challenging tasks in sports, projecting what kind of player a college/amateur athlete will be in the pros.

Many of us saw potential in CK, but anyone who says they imagined he'd be quarterbacking the NFC champs in the SB his 2nd year in the league isn't being honest.

[brat316]

I think the system he plays in works great for him.

I don't know how good he would be as straight drop back and read.

[G Mobile]

Originally Posted by bhaarat316

I think the system he plays in works great for him.

I don't know how good he would be as straight drop back and read.

Harbaugh might be one of the best in the league at identifying and handling a QB. Kaepernick was a project coming out, but Harbaugh has found a way to minimize his weaknesses while making great use of his unique abilities. I'm not saying Kaepernick isn't good or talented or is some type of a product of the system. I just think Harbaugh has gotten him on the field much sooner than he would have otherwise in another situation. Harbaugh never tries to put it all solely on the QB. Even when he had Luck at Stanford and coud have thrown 60 times a game, he still kept a balanced offense and worked the run game.

This type of early success should surprise even his stronger supporters.

[brat316]

he has worked him and he has improved since he started.

Look at the fads and deep balls he was throwing to crabtree and Moss and Ginn. They would be nowhere near the player, sometimes going into the stands even.

but it has improved and the ball is landing over their shoulder now.

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

It does come off like gloating. I don't know how anyone could look at Kaepernick's games at Nevada and see a particularly accurate QB. He never even completed 60+% of his passes until his senior year and Nevada's passing attack isn't what you would call sophisticated on the college level.

To evaluate a prospect fairly, you have to look at both his negatives AND his positives. Scott did this IMO. After the final evaluation he saw more question marks than known quantities...that's how it goes.

No matter how long you do this, it's still one of the most challenging tasks in sports, projecting what kind of player a college/amateur athlete will be in the pros.

Many of us saw potential in CK, but anyone who says they imagined he'd be quarterbacking the NFC champs in the SB his 2nd year in the league isn't being honest.

I am hardly gloating. I poked a bit of VERY light humor at Scott which should be okay being we are all adults here. I was not disrespectful and I didn't say "I told you so." But what's the point of all the debates we have and more specifically, the predictions we make, if we aren't willing to man up and witness the outcome? If you still haven't caught on, the only problem I had with his evaluation is the guarantee that he could not play QB. The guarantee was completely unnecessary and unwarranted. How many undrafted free agents made the Pro Bowl in 2011-2012? Like you said, it's a difficult business, so one is probably better off doing the evaluation rather than guaranteeing someone's failure. They do a lot of that such on other sites.

You are talking about his completion % as evidence he could not play QB in the NFL?? Kyle Boller's completion % SUCKED, yet he was drafted in the first round and had an NFL career, albeit a terrible one. How about the guy that got drafted a round ahead of him, Jake Locker? He was NEVER over 60% in his college career, but how many people here poured out excuses for him?

Kaepernick had ALL THE TOOLS as well as significant experience as a starter. He threw the ball harder than anyone has ever measured. He is 6'6" and ran a 4.52, but he couldn't play QB in the NFL?? I thought otherwise and Harbaugh thought otherwise. People here are acting like Harbaugh gave Kaepernick a brain transplant. No, he just saw what some of us saw and others did not. Scott was wrong and that's the bottom line, but my reason for bringing this was the guarantee that he couldn't play. He certainly can.

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by bhaarat316

he has worked him and he has improved since he started.

Look at the fads and deep balls he was throwing to crabtree and Moss and Ginn. They would be nowhere near the player, sometimes going into the stands even.

but it has improved and the ball is landing over their shoulder now.

Which means he always had the ability to do it. Not only that, he made the improvements VERY quickly. Could it be that he is smart as well as talented? Could it be that he can pass AND run? Jake Locker can't hit the side of an aircraft carrier and Tim Tebow putts rather than passes and I am sure their coaches have tried to improve them. See the difference?

[brat316]

Originally Posted by Black Bolt

Which means he always had the ability to do it. Not only that, he made the improvements VERY quickly. Could it be that he is smart as well as talented? Could it be that he can pass AND run? Jake Locker can't hit the side of an aircraft carrier and Tim Tebow putts rather than passes and I am sure their coaches have tried to improve them. See the difference?

No?

I was saying when he started he couldn't do it.

He was coached to improve his accuracy.

This offense still mask his weakness whatever they maybe, or else he wouldn't be running out of the pistol.

[SuperPacker]

Originally Posted by Black Bolt

But what's the point of all the debates we have and more specifically, the predictions we make, if we aren't willing to man up and witness the outcome?

This. People are talking in another thread about having thick skin to deal with people disagreeing with your opinion, why can't people have thick skin with this as well. As long as you don't do a Brasho, I see no harm in bringing up an old thread and discussing what was previously written. If people don't want to be held accountable for what they say, don't say anything in the first place.

Scott GUARANTEED that Kaepernick wouldn't be anything in the NFL. Those are pretty big words, we should just forget them because they were said in the past?

Again with something that was said in another thread. If you disagree with someone, everyone saying "I respectfully disagree with you" is just boring. Saying "everyone makes mistakes, forget about it" is just as boring, IMO.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by Black Bolt

I am hardly gloating. I poked a bit of VERY light humor at Scott which should be okay being we are all adults here. I was not disrespectful and I didn't say "I told you so." But what's the point of all the debates we have and more specifically, the predictions we make, if we aren't willing to man up and witness the outcome? If you still haven't caught on, the only problem I had with his evaluation is the guarantee that he could not play QB. The guarantee was completely unnecessary and unwarranted. How many undrafted free agents made the Pro Bowl in 2011-2012? Like you said, it's a difficult business, so one is probably better off doing the evaluation rather than guaranteeing someone's failure. They do a lot of that such on other sites.

You are talking about his completion % as evidence he could not play QB in the NFL?? Kyle Boller's completion % SUCKED, yet he was drafted in the first round and had an NFL career, albeit a terrible one. How about the guy that got drafted a round ahead of him, Jake Locker? He was NEVER over 60% in his college career, but how many people here poured out excuses for him?

Kaepernick had ALL THE TOOLS as well as significant experience as a starter. He threw the ball harder than anyone has ever measured. He is 6'6" and ran a 4.52, but he couldn't play QB in the NFL?? I thought otherwise and Harbaugh thought otherwise. People here are acting like Harbaugh gave Kaepernick a brain transplant. No, he just saw what some of us saw and others did not. Scott was wrong and that's the bottom line, but my reason for bringing this was the guarantee that he couldn't play. He certainly can.

No the bottom line is that people in this business are wrong a lot. Looking back and pointing each one out is an exercise with no end. There are things called draft busts and draft steals.

To call out the owner of this site for getting one wrong, that you called right is really more about you trying to attract the real attention on yourself isn't it? Isn't that the bottom line? So let's have a nice little harmless laugh at Scott's expense and throw our praises at you. Bravo man! You were definitely on point about Kaep, so Brrrrravo!!!

[Black Bolt]

Originally Posted by bhaarat316

No?

I was saying when he started he couldn't do it.

He was coached to improve his accuracy.

This offense still mask his weakness whatever they maybe, or else he wouldn't be running out of the pistol.

I see, hiding his weakness. I guess the Bronco's don't run the pistol with Peyton Manning as to not expose his weakness.

Really, your response reeks of denial. Harbaugh helped him to refine his skills, he didn't create his skills. You and a few others in this thread will say anything except admit you were wrong about Kaepernick.