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Old 01-29-2013, 02:08 AM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Escobar is a good pick here, he's definitely my favorite of the TEs this year (Not that Eifert and Ertz are chopped liver.)
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Pioli's drafts had really bad luck with injuries. Berry, Moeaki, Lewis, Hudson, and Baldwin all went down at key points in their development.

In the last three drafts, on Draft Day, the Chiefs were considered to be big winners. It's not for no reason. His picks were a lot better than what he's given credit for and the man never loses a trade.

And if you go by the general rule to wait 3 years to judge a draft, he hit on 6 players in the 2010 draft and Sheffield even looked really promising, but could never stay healthy. 6 starters in one draft, and they'll all be starters in 2013 in all likelihood.

We can go back and look at 2011 at the end of the year, but they really went after high-potential players in that draft after playing it a bit safe in 2010 and 2009. Houston should have gone to the Pro Bowl, Hudson was playing at a Pro Bowl-to-All Pro level when he went down, and they still have Jalil Brown (special teams ace with high upside at CB), Jon Baldwin (interested in seeing what a competent offensive staff can do with him), Allen Bailey, and Jerrel Powe.
Jon Baldwin ******* sucks. He can't separate, he can't beat the jam and he's SLOW. Kendrick Lewis is the worst tackler on the team and his coverage was exposed several times. Allen Bailey did nothing this year. NOTHING. And Jalil Brown ******* sucks at CB. He got his ass handed to him so many times dude.

Quit defending Pioli. He's trash. He is a below average talent evaluator who sucked at his job.

Pioli is in the Matt Millen conversation for worst GM in the history of the NFL. He was that awful.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:53 AM    (permalink
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No Damontre Moore? LOL at this list
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:21 AM    (permalink
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Wait until Andy Reid coaches Jonathan Baldwin for a season before you write him off as a bust. This coming season is huge for him. If he ever becomes a more reliable WR for the Chiefs, they're going really turn the corner as a football team.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:24 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbuc View Post
I just don't think he was looking at DE's in a even front. He shouldn't have been looking at Jones. He has/had no reason to draft a OLB early in the draft. He has two studs already.
The other thing with Jones is that he doesn't fit that two gap base defense - he's not long enough. Jones is more Bruce Irvin than Chandler Jones frame wise.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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Pioli is no longer a GM because he had too much loyalty to his guys, Romeo, Cassell etc not because he is a bad evaluator. He made some good picks in KC as well. Plus, its not like it was just him sitting by himself making this list. He will have had input from KC scouts while there. Guys are viewed highly now but that is in draftnik and media circles. Guys don't rise or fall in the draft, it is simply the closer we get to the draft more info from scouts and teams come out and the media jump on it. This time last year Chandler Jones was a consensus late second/third round pick. He didn't blow up the combine or pro day but yet 2 weeks before the draft he was in every first round mock. Sure Pioli ended up looking bad in KC but ill take his opinion over virtually anyone giving their opinion at this time, ie - anyone who isn't an actual scout or GM
You cannot be serious. You do realize all the best players on the team Flowers, Albert, Bowe, Charles, Hali, and Johnson were all on the roster before Pioli got into town. He also let Brandon Carr walk and replaced him with Routt. He is the guy who brought in Cassell for a 2nd and drafted Tyson Jackson 3rd overall. He is barely a level about Matt Millen and has been an overrated name for years because of his association with the Patriots.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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Jon Baldwin ******* sucks. He can't separate, he can't beat the jam and he's SLOW. Kendrick Lewis is the worst tackler on the team and his coverage was exposed several times. Allen Bailey did nothing this year. NOTHING. And Jalil Brown ******* sucks at CB. He got his ass handed to him so many times dude.

Quit defending Pioli. He's trash. He is a below average talent evaluator who sucked at his job.

Pioli is in the Matt Millen conversation for worst GM in the history of the NFL. He was that awful.
I'm not sure why they changed the way they used Bailey this year. He wasn't on the fields much. Seemed like they were content to stock with their base front and rely on Houston and Hali more.

Brown showed a lot of development early, but obviously needs work on technique.

As soon as Bowe got to camp, they stopped working with Baldwin. He's not going to be Megatron, but with good coaches and proper utilization he can be a very productive player. He had a green WR coach and an OC that completely mailed it in.

Lewis is fine in man coverage for a safety and is very good in zine coverage. His tackling declined after the shoulder injuries. Prior to, he was very good in that area.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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You cannot be serious. You do realize all the best players on the team Flowers, Albert, Bowe, Charles, Hali, and Johnson were all on the roster before Pioli got into town. He also let Brandon Carr walk and replaced him with Routt. He is the guy who brought in Cassell for a 2nd and drafted Tyson Jackson 3rd overall. He is barely a level about Matt Millen and has been an overrated name for years because of his association with the Patriots.
I'm not saying he was great but he is getting a lot of **** he doesn't deserve. The Chiefs are literally a QB away from contending. And Pioli missed on the QB and that's what killed him.

As for some of the hits he has had;

The entire Chiefs O line with the exception of Albert was brought in by Pioli. Asamoah, Hudson and Jeff Allen were all drafted by Pioli and Eric Winston was brought in. The Chiefs have one of, if not, the best offensive lines in the NFL.

McCluster and Moeaki are also useful offensive weapons. And bear in mind the offensive weapons aren't going to look good with crappy QB play. If the Chiefs improve the QB play which they almost certainly will then guys like Moeaki, McCluster, Baldwin etc should see an uptick in production.

On defense everyone looks to guys like Hali, DJ and flowers but their best defensive player was probably Justin Houston, another Pioli pick.

And they let Carr go because the Cowboys offered him silly money.

If Pioli didn't bet the farm on Cassell he would likely still have a job and the Chiefs would be in a better spot, but he didn't and because of that he deserved to be fired.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Getting tired of the "well they were good picks at the time!" argument. In this business you're judged by results. Have McCluster or Baldwin done anything? No. They haven't. Has Tyson Jackson? Very little.

While his drafts may have been good on paper, he had more misses than hits by a large margin. That, coupled with the QB "strategy" he employed, and his inability to hire a coach worth a damn, it was way past time for him to go. He wasn't very good, and for some reason the only people arguing that are Patriots fans. Go figure.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Getting tired of the "well they were good picks at the time!" argument. In this business you're judged by results. Have McCluster or Baldwin done anything? No. They haven't. Has Tyson Jackson? Very little.

While his drafts may have been good on paper, he had more misses than hits by a large margin. That, coupled with the QB "strategy" he employed, and his inability to hire a coach worth a damn, it was way past time for him to go. He wasn't very good, and for some reason the only people arguing that are Patriots fans. Go figure.
I'm not saying he was good and I have stated he should have been fired, however I think some of the criticisms are way overboard. To say he is slightly above Matt Millen is ridiculous. He made some really poor personnel decisions, that's a fact. Tyson Jackson was a horrible pick as were a number of others. The loyalty he showed to Cassell was the nail in his coffin. However he did make some very good decisions as well.

The Chiefs were handicapped by absolutely abysmal QB play and that's why they are picking first overall. Nobody can defend Pioli on that decision and I am not defending him at all. I am simply saying he isn't a horrible scout based on a few mistakes.

His 2009 draft was a complete waste, literally as bad a draft as there has been in the last few years. But he has rebuilt the offensive line into a great unit. Houston is a stud bookend to Hali, and based off last year a better player. Eric Berry is overrated as hell but still a good safety.

His 2010 draft was decent. Nobody has become an all pro but it was a very solid draft. 2011 also brought Hudson and Houston, sure Baldwin brings it down but it was another ok draft. Last year's draft doesn't look great at this point though.

Overall Pioli was at least average in bringing in talent in either the draft or free agency, however the decisions he made around the QB and head coach were terrible
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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I don't disagree with any particular point you made, but I personally think he's overrated as a talent evaluator. He isn't on the same level as Matt Millen, that is ridiculous, but I wouldn't put him in the top half of the league either. He is decidedly average and was nothing more than that while in KC.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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I don't disagree with any particular point you made, but I personally think he's overrated as a talent evaluator. He isn't on the same level as Matt Millen, that is ridiculous, but I wouldn't put him in the top half of the league either. He is decidedly average and was nothing more than that while in KC.
Agreed. I think he was out of his depth as GM.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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What free agents did he bring in that were good? Winston may be his best and he looked exposed at multiple points last season. The free agent compliments he brought in to Jamaal Charles were not successful. Stanford Routt was a disaster in and of itself, coupled with letting Carr walk AND failing to sign Bowe to a long term contract is absurd.

His drafting was terrible. No ways around it. Tyson Jackson we've discussed. Baldwin we've discussed. Berry gets exposed by TEs frequently, and I'm not just talking Pro Bowl. Poe may actually be something. Those are his first round picks, then he spent premium picks on a one-dimensional utility man in McCluster, an undersized corner in Arenas (who can't even return kicks), a defensive end that was cut one year later in Magee, and another end in Bailey who can't get to the QB.

Yes, he had some good picks. Houston is a gem in the 3rd round, and I like the future of the offensive line (although to claim they are anywhere near tops in the league seems premature to me), but when a kicker is the best pick of an entire draft class you cannot possibly claim that the man was a good evaluator of talent.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying he was great but he is getting a lot of **** he doesn't deserve. The Chiefs are literally a QB away from contending. And Pioli missed on the QB and that's what killed him.

As for some of the hits he has had;

The entire Chiefs O line with the exception of Albert was brought in by Pioli. Asamoah, Hudson and Jeff Allen were all drafted by Pioli and Eric Winston was brought in. The Chiefs have one of, if not, the best offensive lines in the NFL.

McCluster and Moeaki are also useful offensive weapons. And bear in mind the offensive weapons aren't going to look good with crappy QB play. If the Chiefs improve the QB play which they almost certainly will then guys like Moeaki, McCluster, Baldwin etc should see an uptick in production.

On defense everyone looks to guys like Hali, DJ and flowers but their best defensive player was probably Justin Houston, another Pioli pick.

And they let Carr go because the Cowboys offered him silly money.

If Pioli didn't bet the farm on Cassell he would likely still have a job and the Chiefs would be in a better spot, but he didn't and because of that he deserved to be fired.
Wait......"best offensive line in football"? Are you kidding me? Dude, for the first time in God knows when, the Chefs couldn't run on the Raiders in two games. Also, any notion that this guy is any good should be erased after I mention two players:

Tyson Jackson- Absolutely the biggest reach in recent memory.
Stanford Routt- Costly FA bust that lasted half a season.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Our line was banged up for both Raiders games (missing two starters) but yeah it was pretty pathetic.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Pioli should have been fired on site for drafting Dexter McCluster and Javier Arenas.

Javier Arenas is a nickel CB and ST's return man. Not a starter. Dexter McCluster is not a starting RB and he wasn't that great of a WR in college.

You draft starters in the 2nd round, not complimentary players. Ugh.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying he was great but he is getting a lot of **** he doesn't deserve. The Chiefs are literally a QB away from contending. And Pioli missed on the QB and that's what killed him.

As for some of the hits he has had;

The entire Chiefs O line with the exception of Albert was brought in by Pioli. Asamoah, Hudson and Jeff Allen were all drafted by Pioli and Eric Winston was brought in. The Chiefs have one of, if not, the best offensive lines in the NFL.

McCluster and Moeaki are also useful offensive weapons. And bear in mind the offensive weapons aren't going to look good with crappy QB play. If the Chiefs improve the QB play which they almost certainly will then guys like Moeaki, McCluster, Baldwin etc should see an uptick in production.

On defense everyone looks to guys like Hali, DJ and flowers but their best defensive player was probably Justin Houston, another Pioli pick.

And they let Carr go because the Cowboys offered him silly money.

If Pioli didn't bet the farm on Cassell he would likely still have a job and the Chiefs would be in a better spot, but he didn't and because of that he deserved to be fired.
For me the biggest knock on Pioli was his inability to get along with Haley after Haley brought home a 10 win season with Cassels as his QB. Pioli turned on Haley and made it a fight to see which direction the team would go. Pioli got his way and KC won 2 games. Pioli threw in Crennel as a stop gap and it was disastrous.
I think there was some comparisons between Pioli and Matt Millen although Millen did it over a longer period of time. Miien tried to shut up any criticism from his HC's over the poor picks he had made in the draft and ended up hiring 'yes' men to silence it like Rod Marinelli. The result was an 0-16 season.

Fortunately for KC fans, your owner wasn't Ford and he quickly made a change for the better by hiring Reid, the only concern I have about Reid is his inability to go far in the playoffs even when he had a dominating team in Philly. Reminds me a bit of Schotty, great regular season HC but where are the rings?
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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One thing you also have to remember overall Pioli loves kids from the SEC, then BIG XII and also small school Northeast schools.

Lol right now KC fans would be pleased with a Schotty type winning culture (outside of playoffs).

Last edited by ChiefMojo : 01-30-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:17 PM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidae View Post
Getting tired of the "well they were good picks at the time!" argument. In this business you're judged by results. Have McCluster or Baldwin done anything? No. They haven't. Has Tyson Jackson? Very little.

While his drafts may have been good on paper, he had more misses than hits by a large margin. That, coupled with the QB "strategy" he employed, and his inability to hire a coach worth a damn, it was way past time for him to go. He wasn't very good, and for some reason the only people arguing that are Patriots fans. Go figure.
At least one site had Jackson as the best run defending DE in football last year. He may or may not have been worth a top 5 pick, but he's not an epic bust either. He's a very good starting 3-4 DE.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:25 PM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidae View Post
Getting tired of the "well they were good picks at the time!" argument. In this business you're judged by results. Have McCluster or Baldwin done anything? No. They haven't. Has Tyson Jackson? Very little.

While his drafts may have been good on paper, he had more misses than hits by a large margin. That, coupled with the QB "strategy" he employed, and his inability to hire a coach worth a damn, it was way past time for him to go. He wasn't very good, and for some reason the only people arguing that are Patriots fans. Go figure.
Also, people fail when grading drafts usually because they don't have any perspective. Guys like Mccluster or Arenas weren't great picks, but they are still on the team and contributing. A lot of teams can't say that about their 2nd rounders. Pioli drafted his fair share of good players in Asamoah,Poe,Hudson,Allen,Lewis,Houston and Moeaki and some solid depth guys like Powe,Bailey and Brown. I'm still a big Berry fan too and I wouldn't be surprised to see Baldwin break out. He should have gotten more run last year. Cassel wasn't a great pick, but QBs are tough to find and he did lead them to the playoffs in his first year. They only gave up a 2nd for him and its not like they passed on QBs because of him. He was a 55 QBR guy for them but people act like he was a 5 QBR guy.

Pioli wasn't great and I can live with him being fired, but he wasn't awful either. He was mediocre, maybe slightly better. He was nowhere near Matt Millen, not even on the same planet when it comes to evaluating talent.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:29 PM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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I think the reason Pioli got the axe was not because of how he drafted, but in how he struggled to find a head coach. Hiring Romeo based on what he did (as the interim coach) compared to what he would go on to do (acquire the worst record in football) was the nail in the coffin.
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