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Old 01-30-2013, 12:14 PM    (permalink
descendency
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Originally Posted by Shane P. Hallam View Post
How much would Flacco have to demand for the Ravens to say no?
I don't think they will give him 20 million without winning the SB this year.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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You say he will never be elite. But what if he wins the Super Bowl this year? We all love to call Eli elite because he won a Super Bowl. But he is a painfully inconsistent QB in the regular season. Too many interceptions. A history of the team going to long stretches of bad play. If the Ravens win on Sunday, what's the difference between Flacco and Eli? Both have been rather hit or miss in the regular season but fantastic in the playoffs. With a win on Sunday, Flacco is just a more physically gifted Eli and there is no reason to call one elite but not the other.
Eli wasn't considered elite until he won 2 SBs. When you win 2, you're legit. Yeah sure, everyone brings up Trent Dilfer and how he won a SB. Fine. I'll grant them that. But when you win 2, you're legit. Dilfer and Johnson didn't win 2.

You don't win 2 SBs by accident. Or by luck, or get dragged along by a good team. Eli carried the Giants in 2012. Worst run game in the league, 29th ranked defense, Eli carried that team in the regular season with the most 4th quarter comebacks in a single season ever, having a great regular and post season that year.

It's not like Eli was carried by a good team. Eli was the main reason why we won in 2012. There's so much revisionist history going on right now it's insane. Let's calm down.

I think Joe can become a very good qb. I think he's borderline top 10, but I won't put him in the top 10 yet bc as we've discussed to death in the past, once you get past 7, there's a bunch of qbs who are relatively equal in skill.

And for the record I've been on board with saying Joe does deserve a big contract.

And physical tools doesn't define an elite qb. Eli is 10 billion times better btw snaps and in making progressions. Eli is widely considered a top 5 qb in the league. Some may not view that as elite. And I'll understand that.

But to me, if you're top 5, and won 2 SBs, and 2 SB MVPs, along with crushing every single one of your team's records with a good 7 years left in your career you're an elite qb.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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You can't spell Elite without Eli.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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There's no such thing as a QB who guarentees a team a playoff by himself. Flacco has proven he can help a good team get to the Super Bowl. That's worth a lot of money.

Worth a lot but not to be paid like a top QB. Manning and Brady have basically guaranteed playoff spots and usually a first round bye.

Crediting Flacco with making the playoffs lately is insulting to Ray Rice and the defense. He's played well in the playoffs but it doesn't change what kind of QB he is and the kind of money he'll generate which isn't a lot.

He isn't a QB that puts people in seats like Manning, Brady, Rodgers or Brees which is also what teams are paying for, not just performance. Flacco would be getting away with robbery if he is paid as a top five QB because he doesn't come close to those players' image.



I wouldn't give him that money even if he was already the face of the franchise, which he isn't.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
Shane P. Hallam
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I don't think they will give him 20 million without winning the SB this year.
So they would let him walk? Franchise him and go through this fight next year?
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Worth a lot but not to be paid like a top QB. Manning and Brady have basically guaranteed playoff spots and usually a first round bye.

Crediting Flacco with making the playoffs lately is insulting to Ray Rice and the defense. He's played well in the playoffs but it doesn't change what kind of QB he is and the kind of money he'll generate which isn't a lot.

He isn't a QB that puts people in seats like Manning, Brady, Rodgers or Brees which is also what teams are paying for, not just performance. Flacco would be getting away with robbery if he is paid as a top five QB because he doesn't come close to those players' image.


I wouldn't give him that money even if he was already the face of the franchise, which he isn't.
It doesn't matter if you'd pay Flacco. NFL teams will. Flacco is a big reason Brady and Manning are done for the year. Winning puts people in seats. Flacco wins.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Flacco will get what he wants, or at least pretty close to it.

He has shown he is an above average QB who is more than capable of taking his team to the Superbowl. The defense didn't beat Denver. It wasn't the Ravens defense who played brilliantly at the start of the second half of the Pats game to put the game away. What are the Ravens going to do? Say no??? They literally have no choice. You get a QB that can bring you to a Superbowl. That is always the goal at the start of ever year. If you have a guy who can do that then you don't get rid of him.

Plus, it's all about how the market is. Flacco is simply the next QB in line for a new contract. If Rodgers was up this year too then Rodgers would get the bigger contract but he's not.

Nobody thought Mario Williams was the best defensive player in the league yet he got the biggest contract. I could name at least 10 defensive players I would pay over Williams but they weren't up for new contracts. It's the same thing with the Ravens, although they will be kicking themselves they didn't resign thim at the start of the year as he would have likely cost about 6m a year less
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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This is the same situation as Eli. It also won't be the last time we see it. Every few years a very good QB will reach the end of his contract and get a deal that pays him as well as the top 3 uber-elite QBs on a per year basis. It's just the economics of the league. He will then be deemed "not worth it" because he isn't "as good as" said top 3 QBs. Then a few years later the elite QBs will top that deal anyway.

The Ravens would be silly to not pay him the 16-19 per year that many teams in the league would be happy to pay for his services.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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[quote=bigbluedefense;3260302 When you win 2, you're legit. .[/QUOTE]

So Peyton is not elite? LOL. Or Fouts, or Marino or Favre..

Kidding aside (because all of those guys are/were elite and Flacco is not), the Ravens are in a bit of a bind. Is Flacco developing into elite or is he just on a roll? Take away that fluke long pass in Denver (very bad D) and everyone is singing a different tune. On the other hand, he is still young and damn if it is not virtually impossible to find an elite QB.

I would have to say he is not elite, maybe offer him $15M a year with another few Mil per year in incentives. He may not go for it and you can always franchise him. If he pouts or sits, f*ck him. Brees looked like an idiot to the fans when he held out squabbling between high paid and super high paid.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Im not going to get into the whole "is he elite" conversation or throw up a proper $$ figure that I think he should get paid.

But I really dont understand a lot of the Flacco hate on these forums.

And I laugh at all the "media hyped up" talk. Its the Super Bowl people, it generally hyped up every year. lol
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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So Peyton is not elite? LOL. Or Fouts, or Marino or Favre..

Kidding aside (because all of those guys are/were elite and Flacco is not), the Ravens are in a bit of a bind. Is Flacco developing into elite or is he just on a roll? Take away that fluke long pass in Denver (very bad D) and everyone is singing a different tune. On the other hand, he is still young and damn if it is not virtually impossible to find an elite QB.

I would have to say he is not elite, maybe offer him $15M a year with another few Mil per year in incentives. He may not go for it and you can always franchise him. If he pouts or sits, f*ck him. Brees looked like an idiot to the fans when he held out squabbling between high paid and super high paid.
If they do that, have fun finishing last in the division. With Tyrod Taylor running the ship, this is a 2 win team.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Im not going to get into the whole "is he elite" conversation or throw up a proper $$ figure that I think he should get paid.

But I really dont understand a lot of the Flacco hate on these forums.

And I laugh at all the "media hyped up" talk. Its the Super Bowl people, it generally hyped up every year. lol
I don't understand all the Flacco hate either, but I have a theory...

The Ravens have had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL for the last decade. They are loaded at every position. They have one of the top defenses, and they hit the hardest. They have the biggest offensive line, the biggest defensive lineman, the best linebacker, a great secondary, a strong running game...the one thing that they haven't had is an elite QB. People have always had that to hold over them..."but you don't have a great QB so you won't win the Super Bowl." The day that they have to admit that Flacco IS elite they will all have to swallow their pride and tuck their tails.

I personally think Flacco has reached that place, but people are still talking smack in hopes that their prayers will be answered. But Flacco is having a fantastic run, and proving them wrong game by game. He has been throwing the ball with a confidence that was not there in the past, making great decisions, and has his team on his back. They are now winning because of him rather than in spite of him. That's what makes him elite.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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So they would let him walk? Franchise him and go through this fight next year?
I'd franchise him and I'd make it perfectly clear I intend to do it again. If him and his agent refuse to come to the table with a more reasonable offer, I would take a shot at one of those high upside players in the draft (Personally, I wouldn't touch him but maybe they take a flier on Tyler Bray...).

I'm not suggesting that they have the ability to get him down to 12 million per year (that's just not how NFL contracts work or how negotiations work in general), but he simply isn't worth 20 million when he's only played half a season like an elite QB.

Franchising him at least gives the Ravens enough time to see he has finally turned the corner and become an elite QB. If the last few months have been mostly a fluke, then they need to avoid paying out a top dollar contract.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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I'd franchise him and I'd make it perfectly clear I intend to do it again. If him and his agent refuse to come to the table with a more reasonable offer, I would take a shot at one of those high upside players in the draft (Personally, I wouldn't touch him but maybe they take a flier on Tyler Bray...).

I'm not suggesting that they have the ability to get him down to 12 million per year (that's just not how NFL contracts work or how negotiations work in general), but he simply isn't worth 20 million when he's only played half a season like an elite QB.

Franchising him at least gives the Ravens enough time to see he has finally turned the corner and become an elite QB. If the last few months have been mostly a fluke, then they need to avoid paying out a top dollar contract.
Yeah, trying to franchise him sounds good until he refuses to play. A franchised player is not under contract until he signs the franchise tender. He could just sit and wait it out. Eventually he'd get a long term contract, one way or another. When was the last time you saw a young franchise QB playing for a 1 year deal?
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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if they lose the superbowl and his demands are too outrageous they should franchise him and draft a QB in the second round and tell him they fully intend on franchising him again, the longer he sits out the less inclined someone is to pay him. basically saying you take a decently large long time deal or **** off. Not saying flacco owes them a discount, but they did reach pretty substantially for him in the draft and they did have to deal with a lot of inconsistency...he doesnt deserve a record breaking deal

he doesnt have the leverage brees did with the saints, brees was their only hope...especially with the roster and coaches in shambles...not to mention brees is in another world when it comes to class of QB

if they win the superbowl though, im afraid their hands might be tied. Crazy how one game after a season of up and down play can make THAT much of a difference

also probably worth noting that the ravens let dilfer walk after winning the superbowl which was a first time thing....not that flacco is dilfer, but they were the only ones to ever do it
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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if they lose the superbowl and his demands are too outrageous they should franchise him and draft a QB in the second round and tell him they fully intend on franchising him again, the longer he sits out the less inclined someone is to pay him. basically saying you take a decently large long time deal or **** off. Not saying flacco owes them a discount, but they did reach pretty substantially for him in the draft and they did have to deal with a lot of inconsistency...he doesnt deserve a record breaking deal

he doesnt have the leverage brees did with the saints, brees was their only hope...especially with the roster and coaches in shambles...not to mention brees is in another world when it comes to class of QB

if they win the superbowl though, im afraid their hands might be tied. Crazy how one game after a season of up and down play can make THAT much of a difference

also probably worth noting that the ravens let dilfer walk after winning the superbowl which was a first time thing....not that flacco is dilfer, but they were the only ones to ever do it
Not really.

2000 Trent Dilfer was the worst super bowl winning QB of all time. He wasn't quite as good as Blaine Gabbert. At the time, we'd have been shocked if they didn't let him go since it looked like virtually anyone would have been better. That's pretty far from the case here. It's kind of like comparing apples and godzilla.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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i mean i get it, i clearly said flacco is not dilfer. im just saying they were the first and only team to ever do that, obviously theyd make flacco sit before they let him walk

i just wouldnt pay him what hes demanding, john would be better off talking about stealing alex smith from jim and drafting another guy for the future. I think if they dump all that money into flacco they will get burned, which actually sounds good to me so go ahead ravens, give him $200 million lol
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:11 AM    (permalink
Halsey
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It's easy to replace Flacco with another QB on a message board. The Ravens spent many years trying to stabilize their starting QB position before Flacco.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:37 AM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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With the D aging, and 1, if not 2 of the pro-bowl (HOF?) players leaving the D, the offense may need to carry that team from now on.

Sure replacing him with Alex Smith would save money, but the team would suffer. The Ravens let Flacco go and they're probably at the bottom of the division like the Browns
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, trying to franchise him sounds good until he refuses to play. A franchised player is not under contract until he signs the franchise tender. He could just sit and wait it out. Eventually he'd get a long term contract, one way or another. When was the last time you saw a young franchise QB playing for a 1 year deal?
They don't because they are not dumb enough to get engaged in a "he's just after the money" war. His public credibility (because of his marketability) is worth more than 10 million dollars.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:05 AM    (permalink
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Right now Flacco's 5-year tag value is about $103 million. My guess is they tag him this year, and then end up giving him something in the neighborhood of 5 years/$90 million.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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straight cash homie
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:08 PM    (permalink
SolidGold
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Vick got that 100 million dollar contract without deserving it - Flacco would be worth every penny
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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The Ravens simply can't afford to let him walk. Especially after this postseason. Any QB they could replace him with would be a huge downgrade, and it'd be impossible to sell to the fans. Flacco has all the leverage in the world. I would not be at all surprised to see him get the biggest contract in NFL history.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:49 PM    (permalink
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Someone just made a bunch of dough.
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