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Old 02-05-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
bitonti
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
...and I didn't rant. He said something stupid. I asked him to clarify. He didn't. He said some more stupid stuff. So I asked him to clarify again. Turned out he had no idea what he was talking about because he thought your average starting guard made 500k a year or whatever.
it's a good thing I recently achieved total spiritual enlightenment. So i don't have to worry about fighting with the internez about the price of guards.

either way Chance Warmack at 9 or 10 is a far saner choice than Geno Smith at 1.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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I think the Chiefs value needs over pick value. They need a QB, Geno Smith can be that QB, draft him #1 overall.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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I fully believe Barkley's game is tailor made for Andy Reid's WCO based system. He's been doing it for so long, playing for Reid would be like going to Football Graduate School for him. ....

....Geno will have a much more raw start in that system. Heck, it might start as basic as taking the ball from underneath center.
I disagree with you that Geno will have a more raw start in the WCO. His skillset, in fact, is more WCO-ready than Barkley if for no other reason than the mere fact he's got a much quicker release and a stronger, more accurate arm, especially on the short-intermediate range passes. The velocity and accuracy Geno puts on throws within that range is just in another class than Barkley's.

Geno also hails from a system with some similar basic core principles as Reid's WCO. Therefore - given also Geno's decision-making, smarts and work ethic - his transition to Reid's offense won't be as difficult as you think and he has all the physical tools to have just as much, if not more success in that system than Barkley.

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He [Geno Smith]already rattles under pressure... and doesn't have the frame to take the punishment either
Geno actually has displayed countless times a willingness to stand tough in the pocket and make a throw knowing he's going to get nailed. By his own admission he feels there were times he should've run more. But he's stated that, though he has the ability to make plays with his legs, it's a last resort.

As for durability, Barkley's the one recovering from a sprained throwing shoulder (the 2nd injury he's had to that shoulder while at USC) not Smith and Geno has taken some shots throughout his career. He might be a lanky 220 but he's not brittle.

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Barkley isn't without flaws, but the main flaw is arm strength and that is a quality that is the easiest thing a QB can fix.
I don't think 'fix' is the term you wanted to use because it implies you can take a weak-armed qb and make him a strong-armed qb. I think the term you wanted to use was "improve"?
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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I disagree with you that Geno will have a more raw start in the WCO. His skillset, in fact, is more WCO-ready than Barkley if for no other reason than the mere fact he's got a much quicker release and a stronger, more accurate arm, especially on the short-intermediate range passes. The velocity and accuracy Geno puts on throws within that range is just in another class than Barkley's.

Geno also hails from a system with some similar basic core principles as Reid's WCO. Therefore - given also Geno's decision-making, smarts and work ethic - his transition to Reid's offense won't be as difficult as you think and he has all the physical tools to have just as much, if not more success in that system than Barkley.



Geno actually has displayed countless times a willingness to stand tough in the pocket and make a throw knowing he's going to get nailed. By his own admission he feels there were times he should've run more. But he's stated that, though he has the ability to make plays with his legs, it's a last resort.

As for durability, Barkley's the one recovering from a sprained throwing shoulder (the 2nd injury he's had to that shoulder while at USC) not Smith and Geno has taken some shots throughout his career. He might be a lanky 220 but he's not brittle.



I don't think 'fix' is the term you wanted to use because it implies you can take a weak-armed qb and make him a strong-armed qb. I think the term you wanted to use was "improve"?
Then we will have to agree to disagree because imo, it's the mental aspect of the game that puts Barkley more ready to be successful for Andy Reid than Smith. ...and as far as accuracy, that's another one that I disagree with as well. People will look at Geno's stats and gawk, but it's very misleading. West Virginia's offense is designed for a lot of easy throws that inflate his numbers. His decision making requirements are not complex. Reid will be forced to scale down his offense for Geno. Perhaps by doing this it will make things easier for Geno, but maybe not so much for the Chiefs.

I'd like to hear your take on Geno's flaws.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I was thinking about value and KC. If Andy doesn't find a QB that he wants to pick 1st overall would taking a Damontre Moore or Jarvis Jones at 1. And trading Tamba Hali for a 1st rounder or maybe Nick Foles ( Philly moving to 3/4 ).

This way by taking value at the top you can move Hali for your QB later in the round or to Philly. So you'll have young bookend OLB and your QB without reaching for a pick
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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I was thinking about value and KC. If Andy doesn't find a QB that he wants to pick 1st overall would taking a Damontre Moore or Jarvis Jones at 1. And trading Tamba Hali for a 1st rounder or maybe Nick Foles ( Philly moving to 3/4 ).

This way by taking value at the top you can move Hali for your QB later in the round or to Philly. So you'll have young bookend OLB and your QB without reaching for a pick
In a word: no.

In more than a word: I still don't get why people want to trade or release proven commodities (Hali and Albert) just to draft their replacements. Does that seem smart to you?
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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In a word: no.

In more than a word: I still don't get why people want to trade or release proven commodities (Hali and Albert) just to draft their replacements. Does that seem smart to you?
You could always move Albert to guard and draft LT....

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Old 02-05-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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In a word: no.

In more than a word: I still don't get why people want to trade or release proven commodities (Hali and Albert) just to draft their replacements. Does that seem smart to you?
There are all kinds of different situations that make it smart at times and not smart at times. For the Chiefs, while they have money to spend, I'm sure they want to spend wisely. They aren't among the most profitable franchises out there, I imagine.

I look at the Cowboys... Anthony Spencer is a proven commodity and is a FA. Is it smart to keep him or draft his replacement. A case can be made for both.

I look at he Niners... Alex Smith was a proven commodity, yet the Niners took Kaep.

This is just one of a million decisions made to replace proven commodities via the draft. It's not always smart and not always dumb, but it happens a lot. Patriots do it all the time.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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All of the teams you just listed have QBs.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Left Tackle is such an overrated position in the NFL.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Left Tackle is such an overrated position in the NFL.
Every position gets overrated at times in the NFL.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Every position gets overrated at times in the NFL.
The value isn't there. I would love to have a stud LT, but it's not a necessity. Nor is it worth it's financial obligation in free agency. It cripples your franchise when you have big bucks at LT.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Left Tackle is such an overrated position in the NFL.
I dunno, I think it's important. Teams need to protect their biggest investment, QB. They need to buy time for their QB to pass. When you have a bad LT, it's crippling to the entire team. But ultimately the fact remains... until the NFL stops paying as much as they do, their draft value will remain high.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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I dunno, I think it's important. Teams need to protect their biggest investment, QB. They need to buy time for their QB to pass. When you have a bad LT, it's crippling to the entire team. But ultimately the fact remains... until the NFL stops paying as much as they do, their draft value will remain high.
Except teams move their pass rushers around so much now that it doesn't matter. Plus good qbs get the ball out fast. Eli, Rodgers, Ben, Brees, Indy Peyton etc do just fine without good LTs.

And the blindside isn't as blind anymore. More teams are taking snaps out of the gun and pistol. Drop backs from center aren't as common anymore. It's a grossly over valued position bc of archaic thinking. The NFL is not very adaptive to change and it will take time for the league to recognize its diminished value. But it's not worth much anymore to be honest.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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I dunno, I think it's important. Teams need to protect their biggest investment, QB. They need to buy time for their QB to pass. When you have a bad LT, it's crippling to the entire team. But ultimately the fact remains... until the NFL stops paying as much as they do, their draft value will remain high.
So why do people advocate drafting a LT for the Chiefs when we don't have a QB there to protect but DO have a LT we could re-sign?
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Because vidae.

Because.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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So why do people advocate drafting a LT for the Chiefs when we don't have a QB there to protect but DO have a LT we could re-sign?
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Because vidae.

Because.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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All of the teams you just listed have QBs.
True, but I was responding to your post that had nothing to do with that. You were talking about teams making moves that swap proven commodities for draft talent, not making any sense. It does make a lot of sense sometimes.

I definitely see how the Chiefs are forced to take Geno, but it just sounds like such bad draft value.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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I just hope for the Chiefs sake they draft a qb. Bc if they don't our chief forum members are gonna be devastated. I know id draft a qb. But that's just me. Who knows what they do.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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They don't need value. They need a goddamn QB.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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True, but I was responding to your post that had nothing to do with that. You were talking about teams making moves that swap proven commodities for draft talent, not making any sense. It does make a lot of sense sometimes.

I definitely see how the Chiefs are forced to take Geno, but it just sounds like such bad draft value.
When you need a qb, value goes out the window. You get a qb.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Except teams move their pass rushers around so much now that it doesn't matter. Plus good qbs get the ball out fast. Eli, Rodgers, Ben, Brees, Indy Peyton etc do just fine without good LTs.

And the blindside isn't as blind anymore. More teams are taking snaps out of the gun and pistol. Drop backs from center aren't as common anymore. It's a grossly over valued position bc of archaic thinking. The NFL is not very adaptive to change and it will take time for the league to recognize its diminished value. But it's not worth much anymore to be honest.
Still important. Maybe becoming less, but the NFL will never go away from investing in pass rushing specialists that attack from the edge and teams can't allow thier QBs to take beatings... which is still gonna happen out of the shotgun or pistol if his protection is weak. Good QBs can aleviate pressure by getting rid of the ball fast, but there's not a lot of those out there. Weak tackles can also crap up the running game, that's why I said earlier that they can have a crippling effect on the entire team.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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What never made sense to me is this:

If you need a qb, wouldn't you want the highest rated guy? Who cares about value, the only value you concern yourself with is the value of your qb relative to the other qbs available. And you always go for the highest rated qb when you need one. Never settle for a lesser talent so you can get better value somewhere else.

Especially in a weak qb draft. Wouldn't you want the best qb in a weak qb draft? Why get the 5th rated guy in a bad qb draft? How does that solve anything?
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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I have the same point of view bbd. Who cares about the goddamn value. You need a QB just take it. You have the chance to pick the best QB in a weak draft and it is your main area of need. Why the hell would they take a guy like Joeckel who isn't going to take them at another level in the near future.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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In a word: no.

In more than a word: I still don't get why people want to trade or release proven commodities (Hali and Albert) just to draft their replacements. Does that seem smart to you?
What I'm saying is using the value of the first overall pick. Taking a player like Jones or Moore and teaming up with Houston gives KC bookends for the next 7 plus years.

Trading Hali who's about to be 30 to a team like Philly get you your QB that you need badly. Or trading him to a team like the Seahawks that are looking for pass rushers so you can take your QB later in round 1.

It's a Value thing. Like paying for something full price at the Gap knowing in two weeks it will be on sale.
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