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Old 02-05-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
King Carls 5 Year Plan
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
We could have a situation much like the Bengals in 2011. Granted there were more "elite" players in that draft, but they decided to pass on taking the #1 QB remaining on their board (who may or may not have been Andy Dalton) and took the best player available with the comfort of knowing come round two they'd be able to land a quarterback they still like (even with Locker, Gabbert and Ponder all going between their draft picks).

Kansas City has the ability to land the player they feel is the best in the entire draft, and probably be able to land a quarterback they still really like (assuming Geno won't be their #1 guy).
i see what your saying and i agree with the overall point. however, the Bengals had an opportunity to draft AJ Green playing a position they had a need in. no one agrues AJs value @ #4. the Chiefs don't have a need that can be addressed by any of the prospects w/o creating an issue of perceived player or positional value. either player X isn't worthy of the #1 (thats every QB in this draft to most draftniks) or position X isn't worthy of the #1 overall. using this websites top 10 ranked players:

Luke Joeckel - we have a LT and don't need to create a position of need by not resigning/franchising Albert. not a need
Jarvis Jones - we have 2 Pro Bowl OLBs right now. not a need
Star Lotulelei - NT was drafted in the 1st in last years draft. plus drafting another DLineman this high in the draft may make me ill, but i can't say it isn't a need, yet. DT @ #1 is kinda sketchy too. i don't know that Star is that caliber of DT in a 34.
Damontre Moore - see Jarvis Jones. not a need
Chance Warmack - OG @ #1? nope & not a need
Bjoern Werner - see Jarvis Jones. not a need
Manti Teo - really? ILB @ #1? nope
Barkevious Mingo - see Jarvis Jones. not a need
Dee Milliner - CB @ #1? maybe, but i doubt it
Geno Smith - QBs go #1 darn near every year and he fills a HUGE need

so, of the top 10 rated prospects Star Lotulelei, Dee Milliner and Geno Smith are the only ones that could fill a need (Smith & Milliner) or fit in positional value. Geno addresses this team LARGEST hole at a psoition that is worthy of going #1 overall. to me it is a easy fit and i would do backflips all the way to the podium with his name card.

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Old 02-05-2013, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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So if Reid likes Nassib or Manuel best you are comfortable with them being taken first overall even though there's a good shot they'd be available in round two?

When it comes to Alex Smith, Reid flirted with him a little bit last off-season and there's genuine interest there. Smith may not project as a long term starter if he goes to Kansas City, but would he be able to find a spot that could allow him to experience more success?
I can't speak for vidae, but I can give my two cents: if you think a guy is a franchise QB, you sell the farm to get him.

I always kind of think about the story of Ron Wolf and Brett Favre. Wolf, then with the Jets, had Favre ranked as the No. 1 player in the 1991 draft and tried desperately to move into the first round to select him (the Jets didn't have a first-round pick). A year later, Wolf was with the Packers and he traded a first round pick for Favre, who had been a second rounder 12 months earlier.

Scared money don't make money.

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Old 02-05-2013, 04:46 PM    (permalink
King Carls 5 Year Plan
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I can't speak for vidae, but I can give my two cents: if you think a guy is a franchise QB, you sell the farm to get him.

I always kind of think about the story of Ron Wolf and Brett Favre. Wolf, then with the Jets, had Favre ranked as the No. 1 player in the 1991 draft and tried desperately to move into the first round to select him (the Jets didn't have a first-round pick). They thought they had a deal worked out to move up in the second round, right before the Falcons drafted Favre. A year later, Wolf was with the Packers and he traded a first round pick for Favre.

Scared money don't make money.
you sir, are welcome to my house any day. you may not be able to speak for vidae, but you took the words right out of my mouth. franchises with this philosophy win.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Are any of these guys gonna scream franchise quarterback to the Chiefs or any team though?

If Poe wasn't selected last year and Tyson Jackson a few years ago, I think Chiefs fans would be much warmer to the idea of Star being the 1st overall pick.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
King Carls 5 Year Plan
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Are any of these guys gonna scream franchise quarterback to the Chiefs or any team though?

If Poe wasn't selected last year and Tyson Jackson a few years ago and Dorsey the year before that, I think Chiefs fans would be much warmer to the idea of Star being the 1st overall pick.
fixed it for you and you're right.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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fixed it for you and you're right.
As difficult as it may be Chiefs fans need to forget the recent draft history. John Dorsey and Andy Reid are going to come in with the belief that they need to draft and develop a team that will be successful for the next decade. In a draft with no clear cut, franchise caliber quarterbacks available to teams, their best option is to take the player they view as the best overall and can logically help them; Star probably being that guy.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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As difficult as it may be Chiefs fans need to forget the recent draft history. John Dorsey and Andy Reid are going to come in with the belief that they need to draft and develop a team that will be successful for the next decade. In a draft with no clear cut, franchise caliber quarterbacks available to teams, their best option is to take the player they view as the best overall and can logically help them; Star probably being that guy.

If Andy Reid doesn't take a QB now, he can't go into the season with who's on the roster now IMO. And Reid can't bank on the Chiefs sucking bad enough in 2013 to draft a QB in the top 5 next season.

No one is going to blame Andy Reid for drafting a QB 1/1 who doesn't pan out.
But it will be inexcusable if Reid drafts an OT or DT and passes on a QB in this draft who then becomes a decent/good NFL starter.

But who knows, Reid might think he can win with Matt Cassell running his offense. It's not impossible to think that's how Reid is approaching the situation.

We'll see what the mediot 'experts' say about Geno's NFL prospects in the coming months, but I have a feeling his stock is going to rise heading up to April, not fall.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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I think every team deserves this type of thread attention for their #1 pick.

Chiefs fans don't know how lucky they are.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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We'll see what the mediot 'experts' say about Geno's NFL prospects in the coming months, but I have a feeling his stock is going to rise heading up to April, not fall.
I don't see Geno's stock going up after further dissection of his game. Here's a post I made yesterday about Geno in this thread....

Quote:
after watching more Geno Smith recently I came away with some consistent concerns

-overall pocket presence is lacking, any hint of pressure and he tends to get rattled

-boundary throws and throws anticipated threw windows/holes in the defense are a part of his passing game where he often comes up short

-question his ability to dissect defenses and be able to go through progressions after first read is gone
I think the worst thing KC can do is say to themselves we need to breakdown these QBs, even if we're not completely thrilled about one of them, and select the guy at the top of the list first overall.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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It would make me sick to my stomach for damn near ever if we pass on Geno and he goes on to become the next big thing at QB in the NFL and we're sitting here with our 4th top 11 DLineman since 2008.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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I think every team deserves this type of thread attention for their #1 pick.

Chiefs fans don't know how lucky they are.
I'm just constipated with pride.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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It would make me sick to my stomach for damn near ever if we pass on Geno and he goes on to become the next big thing at QB in the NFL and we're sitting here with our 4th top 11 DLineman since 2008.
5 out of the last 8 years, Andy Reid has taken a DLineman with his first pick.

2005 - DT Mike Patterson
2006 - DT Broderick Bunkley

2007 - QB Kevin Kolb
2008 - DT Trevor Laws
2009 - WR Jeremy Maclin
2010 - DE Brandon Graham
2011 - OG Danny Watkins
2012 - DT Fletcher Cox
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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5 out of the last 8 years, Andy Reid has taken a DLineman with his first pick.

2005 - DT Mike Patterson
2006 - DT Broderick Bunkley

2007 - QB Kevin Kolb
2008 - DT Trevor Laws
2009 - WR Jeremy Maclin
2010 - DE Brandon Graham
2011 - OG Danny Watkins
2012 - DT Fletcher Cox
He has also had a QB so there was no need to take one. Reid is an offensive guy and a QB "guru" so I think he knows what is most important.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
King Carls 5 Year Plan
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5 out of the last 8 years, Andy Reid has taken a DLineman with his first pick.

2005 - DT Mike Patterson
2006 - DT Broderick Bunkley

2007 - QB Kevin Kolb
2008 - DT Trevor Laws
2009 - WR Jeremy Maclin
2010 - DE Brandon Graham
2011 - OG Danny Watkins
2012 - DT Fletcher Cox
but in everyone of those drafts, he already had his QB, whether Vick or McNabb
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Why is he a QB guru? He's taken one truly successful QB in his tenure. I'm not sure why he gets this label. Mike Vick wasn't particularly successful outside half of a season. Kolb is terrible. McNabb is a good but never really elite QB.

Not sure why he gets the this title of being a QB guru. If anything I'd say he's more of a OL/DL guru.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Why is he a QB guru? He's taken one truly successful QB in his tenure. I'm not sure why he gets this label. Mike Vick wasn't particularly successful outside half of a season. Kolb is terrible. McNabb is a good but never really elite QB.

Not sure why he gets the this title of being a QB guru. If anything I'd say he's more of a OL/DL guru.
He's a quarterback guru because signal callers under him have been individually productive. Kevin Kolb has been garbage since being traded away, but he had his brightest moments as a member of the Eagles, same with AJ Feeley, and McNabb became one hell of a QB under him.

Reid was also an assistant coach for the Packers during Favre's early years and he was the quarterbacks coach the year the team won the Super Bowl.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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Then we will have to agree to disagree because imo, it's the mental aspect of the game that puts Barkley more ready to be successful for Andy Reid than Smith.
Yeah we will have to agree to disagree because I don't see Barkley being anymore 'mentally' ready for success in Reid's offense than Smith.

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...and as far as accuracy, that's another one that I disagree with as well. People will look at Geno's stats and gawk, but it's very misleading. West Virginia's offense is designed for a lot of easy throws that inflate his numbers.
I don't look at numbers/stats much when evaluating quarterbacks because there are simply too many other variables that can influence them....surrounding cast, the offensive scheme, quality of competition, various game situations, etc.

I simply look at the throws themselves...ball placement, velocity, difficulty - how tight was that window? did he hit the target in stride? how much did the target have to adjust? how good was the coverage? Was the ball thrown under pressure? etc.....and when I take all that into account, I come away far more impressed with Geno's accuracy than Barkley's based on actual footage...not the box scores.

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His decision making requirements are not complex. Reid will be forced to scale down his offense for Geno.
I don't see that happening. Geno's football IQ and film habits are such that Reid won't "be forced" to scale down his offense to accommodate Smith anymore than he would have to for Barkley. If any accommodations are made it'd have more to do with Smith (or Barkley for that matter) being a rookie than for any implied lack of decision-making ability and/or mental capacity to digest an offense.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by vidae View Post
He has also had a QB so there was no need to take one. Reid is an offensive guy and a QB "guru" so I think he knows what is most important.
Saying he had a QB is like saying the Chiefs have a QB in Cassell.

Andy drafted 2 QBs in the last 3 years. Just not with his first pick. Let's not pretend they didn't have a need.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Yeah we will have to agree to disagree because I don't see Barkley being anymore 'mentally' ready for success in Reid's offense than Smith.

Well then you're just not giving any credit to the experience Barkley had in a WCO at USC. Which makes me think you're being bias by hiding things you don't want to see.

I don't look at numbers/stats much when evaluating quarterbacks because there are simply too many other variables that can influence them....surrounding cast, the offensive scheme, quality of competition, various game situations, etc.

I agree with that for sure.

I simply look at the throws themselves...ball placement, velocity, difficulty - how tight was that window? did he hit the target in stride? how much did the target have to adjust? how good was the coverage? Was the ball thrown under pressure? etc.....and when I take all that into account, I come away far more impressed with Geno's accuracy than Barkley's based on actual footage...not the box scores.

Do you take his system into account? You might've been a fan of Kliff Kingsbury, Graham Harrell and Case Keenum if you only saw what you said you saw.

I don't see that happening. Geno's football IQ and film habits are such that Reid won't "be forced" to scale down his offense to accommodate Smith anymore than he would have to for Barkley. If any accommodations are made it'd have more to do with Smith (or Barkley for that matter) being a rookie than for any implied lack of decision-making ability and/or mental capacity to digest an offense.

That's nice to say, but hard to tell cause Geno played in such a QB friendly system. Many of his throws were 1 option plays, or plays where he only had to read half the field. As others have said, he has shown a weakness of getting flustered when he has had to go through multiple reads.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Geno didn't play in the best offense for his talents. He would excel and thrive in a WCO system, especially the one Reid runs.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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Saying he had a QB is like saying the Chiefs have a QB in Cassell.

Andy drafted 2 QBs in the last 3 years. Just not with his first pick. Let's not pretend they didn't have a need.
First pick of his first draft (also the highest pick he ever had) he selected a QB from that point on he had his QB. Drafted QBs in the 2nd round for an heir apparent. I think the scenarios are different.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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First pick of his first draft (also the highest pick he ever had) he selected a QB from that point on he had his QB. Drafted QBs in the 2nd round for an heir apparent. I think the scenarios are different.
Point! Score!

Darn it Brothgar! I'm just trying to debate here! I knew that but didn't want to say it. lol.

Maybe he'll roll with Cassell and draft an heir apparent in Round 2.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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I'm with Forenci on Reid. I posted this in the Chiefs #1 Pick thread a while ago.

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People keep saying things like Andy Reid is an amazing QB coach and any QB will work with Reid as the coach. Why? What evidence of this is there? To start off his pro career he had Brett Favre. Then he had Donovan McNabb for 10 years. The Kevin Kolb experiment failed. Then he had Michael Vick. And finally Nick Foles didn't look too good.

I guess a fair amount of McNabb's success can be attributed to Reid, but this Andy Reid QB genius stuff is way overblown.
Offensive line is his specialty, not QB. He played offensive line in college and outside of those two years with Favre he was an offensive line coach his whole career. The Eagles usually had a pretty good line under him with some good players.
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Reid was also an assistant coach for the Packers during Favre's early years and he was the quarterbacks coach the year the team won the Super Bowl.
Actually he became QB coach the year they lost the Super Bowl. By the time Reid became Favre's QB coach, Favre already had 2 MVPs and a Super Bowl victory. So I'm gonna go ahead and attribute absolutely zero of Favre's development/success to Andy Reid.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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Vick had the best season of his career as a passer under Reid.
A 33 year old McNabb was garbage once he left the Eagles.
Kevin Kolb looked like potentially a future pro bowler under Reid. He's been a bum since he left Philly.

Andy Reid refined Brett Favre's game, the same Favre who was traded by Atlanta because Favre was smelling like a future bust.

Nick Foles in six starts looked like a future starter in the NFL instead of a backup. He threw for over 340+ yards against the Bucs and the Eagles' final game against the Skins.

Say what you want about Reid, but I don't think there's a better QB coach in the NFL.
The man puts a shine on turds daily.

BTW an oline coach doesn't get promoted to QB coach unless he's coaching QBs during TC and practice but doesn't have the official job description.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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5 out of the last 8 years, Andy Reid has taken a DLineman with his first pick.

2005 - DT Mike Patterson
2006 - DT Broderick Bunkley

2007 - QB Kevin Kolb
2008 - DT Trevor Laws
2009 - WR Jeremy Maclin
2010 - DE Brandon Graham
2011 - OG Danny Watkins
2012 - DT Fletcher Cox
The Colts probably won't take Andrew Luck because they haven't used a first round pick on a QB in 14 years. /2012
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