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Old 02-06-2013, 10:03 PM    (permalink
Monomach
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Bettis is getting in. He's just not a first ballot guy. There are more deserving candidates at other crowded positions that are going to push Bettis down on the wait list, but he's going to get in.

IMO his numbers are too strong to keep him out forever.
3.9 yards per carry over his career and never a threat to catch a pass. You get less a 3.9 YPC in a season, your front office is discussing drafting your replacement.

He had 4 good years in a 13 year career.

He was an accumulator, not a performer. He was not particularly good.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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3.9 yards per carry over his career and never a threat to catch a pass. You get less a 3.9 YPC in a season, your front office is discussing drafting your replacement.

He had 4 good years in a 13 year career.

He was an accumulator, not a performer. He was not particularly good.

Not really different than the arguments against Curtis Martin not getting in.
RBs need stats to get into the HOF. Bettis has those. His career rushing attempts, total rushing yards and total rushing TDs alone will get him into Canton.
I think HOF voters really value durability at the one position that endures more physical punishment than any in football.

Any RB who has over 13K rushing yards and a 13 year career is 'unusual'.

Only a handful of RBs historically have done what Bettis has over his entire career.
Bettis has only been eligible for Canton for three years. No he's not a first ballot HOFer, but by most standards Bettis is a HOF RB.

THurmon Thomas played 13 seasons and has significantly fewer rushing yards and rushing TDs than Bettis. I know Thomas was one of the great pass catching RBs in league history, but still.

People seem to think if a RB doesn't average 1400 yards and 15 TDs a season at 5 yards a carry for an entire career, he isn't HOF worthy.

That's nonsense.

Maybe we define performance differently, but IMO there was nothing like watching a 5'11, 260# Bettis with the foot quickness and cutting ability of a 210# RB juke a LB and barrel into a safety with another LB on his back.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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I think everyone is way too quick to put in WR's and RB's over other positions. Can't figure out why.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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I don't wanna get into a pissing match about who Parcells really wanted in the 2005 draft, but IMO there's no way he wanted Spears over Ware or Merriman.
Spears wasn't a pass rusher, he was a solid prospect and a fit for the 34 D, be he wasn't an impact player behind the LOS.

Parcells values pass rushers on defense almost above any other position on that unit.
Also Parcells is known not to be quite honest to the media about his true draft intentions. If he floated names like Marcus Spears and Shawne Merriman as his preferred selections at pick #11, you can bet that's NOT who he wanted.

Parcells compared Ware to LT when he was drafted. IMO that's not something you do when your owner is making you take a guy you didn't want.

Jerry Jones didn't have final say in Parcells' draft war room. That wasn't how they set it up, and it probably was part of the reason Parcells left.
LOL. So you know and yet you actually haven't got a clue.

How about one of the scouts in the war room?

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Former Dallas Cowboys scout Larry Lacewell was recently on The Dallas Cowboys Show. Here are some highlights:

On if he gets in heated discussions about players with Jerry Jones:
“Yes we do. Everybody thinks Jerry makes decisions off the top of his head. That’s wrong. Jerry listens to everybody. He listens to a group of people like the scouting department and coaches. He really does. Then, he has to make the final decision. He doesn’t just say well, we’ll take (DeMarcus) Ware. He had to fight Bill Parcells on taking Ware. Bill didn’t want Ware. Things like that are his final decisions.”
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There was plenty of ego in the room when the Dallas Cowboys' executives gathered at their headquarters for the 2005 NFL Draft.
On one side of the table sat owner Jerry Jones. On the other side were coach Bill Parcells and the Cowboys' scouts. Overseeing the proceedings was 35-year-old Jeff Ireland, running his first draft as head of college and pro scouting.
Dallas had the 11th pick, the clock was ticking and tensions were rising: Should Dallas take LSU defensive tackle Marcus Spears or Troy outside linebacker DeMarcus Ware?
"Bill wanted Spears, and wanted him badly," said Larry Lacewell, who spent 12 years with the Cowboys before Ireland took his place. "(Parcells) said he couldn't go to a 3-4 defense without him. Jeff wanted Ware, and he stood up to Bill and said that was going to be the pick."
Jones, who had hired Ireland away from Kansas City three years earlier and promoted him the previous January, went with Ireland. The Cowboys chose Spears nine picks later, but while Ware has made five Pro Bowls, Spears has never been more than average.
Parcells obviously respected Ireland's judgment, too. Parcells, who came to the Dolphins as head of football operations in December 2007, quickly hired Ireland as general manager.

Ware was NOT the choice of Parcells. He wanted Spears and said he was the only player he could build the 3-4 around. Stop with your hero worship and build your case around the evidence.

I would honestly vote Bill Parcells into the HOF but he does not deserve anywhere near as much credit as he gets with his final NFL stops. He earned the HOF earlier in his career.

Sheesh.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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I think everyone is way too quick to put in WR's and RB's over other positions. Can't figure out why.
Because most people watch the ball during games.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't weigh revisionist history too much. Now Ware was all Jerry Jones, and the bust Marcus Spears was Parcells. Sure.

Just like how the Jets want us to believe that Tebow was ALL Tannenbaum's idea and Woody was forced into it by Tanny. Sure. That's exactly how it happened.

Or how Vernon Gholston was all Mangini's idea when that went wrong.

And if Glenn wasn't a Parcells guy why did he follow him to Dallas? The whole "she" thing was a motivation ploy that clearly worked.

And Parcells wanted to start the season with Romo but Jones didn't allow for it. So for Jones to say he wanted to play Romo now is kind of laughable. But that's just how it is, it's all hearsay. None of us know the entire truth. Everyone is gonna act like a vulture and try to take credit for the right moves and deflect the blame for the wrong ones.

That's the case not just in the NFL, but in the corporate world in general.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Just like how the Jets want us to believe that Tebow was ALL Tannenbaum's idea and Woody was forced into it by Tanny. Sure. That's exactly how it happened.
Yeah, I love this one. Owner with a history of meddling claims that reports of his meddling were wrong this time.

The only guy in NY who gets credit from me for not wanting Tebow is Rex Ryan. If he'd wanted him, he would have played him.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I love this one. Owner with a history of meddling claims that reports of his meddling were wrong this time.

The only guy in NY who gets credit from me for not wanting Tebow is Rex Ryan. If he'd wanted him, he would have played him.
Sparano too. He wanted no part of Tebow.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I love this one. Owner with a history of meddling claims that reports of his meddling were wrong this time.

The only guy in NY who gets credit from me for not wanting Tebow is Rex Ryan. If he'd wanted him, he would have played him.
Yeah. I don't respect Rex however for taking the company line and allowing Tannenbaum to take the fall for it. And denying that Woody had a role in it.

It was all Woody. When I went to the Giants draft party at the stadium last year, when you went into the Jets shop 90% of the merchandise in the store were Tebow jerseys, hats, shirts, etc.

Hmmm, I wonder if Woody's desire for headlines, $, etc had anything to do with that move? Like seriously, come on. We're not stupid.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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For the record, I remember Parcells saying in a press conference in 2006 that Ware was "not physically imposing enough, and never will be" to be a dominating pass rusher. He was talking about how he looked at Ware as an all-around linebacker, not really a great pass rusher.

So that would seem to lend credence to the claims that he didn't want him at #11.

But you want to know something? Bill Walsh reportedly wanted Steve Fuller and Steve Dils over Joe Montana. He had Eddie Brown higher on his draft board than Jerry Rice. He also (not that this was wrong, but it serves as illustration for the phenomenon of him not actually getting what he wanted) had Kenny Easley over Ronnie Lott.

I wouldn't evaluate a coach on draft classes unless he doubles as the GM.

The bigger problem with Parcells is, after his time with the Giants, he made his career by going to bad teams and using high draft picks/cap space/bringing over veteran players who'd succeeded on his teams before and using them as band-aids, and turning them into playoff teams that were mere pretenders.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Parcells often said things like that about his players as a motivational tactic. It doesn't surprise me that he said that.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Parcells often said things like that about his players as a motivational tactic. It doesn't surprise me that he said that.
Eh...it didn't sound like a motivational tactic to me. He was actually praising Ware's play as he said it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Parcells often said things like that about his players as a motivational tactic. It doesn't surprise me that he said that.
+1.

In LT's first autobiography, he said as a rookie Parcells would routinely play game tape of Hugh Green and totally hype him up about how great Green was compared to Taylor.
Until Taylor called him on it and said if Hugh Green was so great why didn't he draft him instead of me?lol
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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Not really different than the arguments against Curtis Martin not getting in.
RBs need stats to get into the HOF. Bettis has those. His career rushing attempts, total rushing yards and total rushing TDs alone will get him into Canton.
I think HOF voters really value durability at the one position that endures more physical punishment than any in football.

Any RB who has over 13K rushing yards and a 13 year career is 'unusual'.

Only a handful of RBs historically have done what Bettis has over his entire career.
Bettis has only been eligible for Canton for three years. No he's not a first ballot HOFer, but by most standards Bettis is a HOF RB.

THurmon Thomas played 13 seasons and has significantly fewer rushing yards and rushing TDs than Bettis. I know Thomas was one of the great pass catching RBs in league history, but still.

People seem to think if a RB doesn't average 1400 yards and 15 TDs a season at 5 yards a carry for an entire career, he isn't HOF worthy.

That's nonsense.

Maybe we define performance differently, but IMO there was nothing like watching a 5'11, 260# Bettis with the foot quickness and cutting ability of a 210# RB juke a LB and barrel into a safety with another LB on his back.
Martin career rushing per attempt average 4.0. Bettis career rushing per attempt average 3.9. Martin was in the top ten in rushing yards 7 times in his career 7 time including #1 in 2004. Bettis was in top ten 5 times and never led in rushing yards. At least Martin led the league in an important category the only thing Bettis led the league in was rushing attempts which is more depending on coaches and that year he did not even finish first in yards with all those rushes. Need me to go on?

Points scored in career
Martin 606
Bettis 570

Career Fumbles
Martin 29
Bettis 41

All this and Martin played in 28 less games in his career then Bettis.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Curtis Martin didn't deserve to go into the Hall of Fame either.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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I don't wanna get into a pissing match about who Parcells really wanted in the 2005 draft, but IMO there's no way he wanted Spears over Ware or Merriman.
Spears wasn't a pass rusher, he was a solid prospect and a fit for the 34 D, be he wasn't an impact player behind the LOS.
.
In your opinion? How are you going to say who Parcells did or didn't want in your opinion, like that matters? You should have probably checked into the history of this draft because this decision was well documented. Parcells was overrated as a drafted anyway. He made a ton of terrible draft choices in Miami for his defense as well, and that's not even including Pat White. But yes, he did want Spears pretty bad.


Funny thing about that draft is it was the Aaron Rodgers draft, and we had 2 first rounders. Only if we had a little greater of a need to take a QB then.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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Yards/carry is a terrible stat to use to evaluate running backs.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:50 AM    (permalink
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The largest gathering ever of Hall of Famers.

There were 122 of the 162 members still alive in Canton this weekend for the 50th Anniversary of the inaugural class. Most of them are in this photo.



First Row: Charlie Taylor, Elvin Bethea, Willie Brown, Larry Allen, Cris Carter, Curley Culp, Jonathan Ogden, Bill Parcells, Dave Robinson, Warren Sapp, Mike Haynes, Earl Campbell, Dan Dierdorf

Second Row: Joe Greene, Barry Sanders, Jim Taylor, Forrest Gregg, Raymond Berry, Lem Barney, Larry Little, Jim Kelly, Marv Levy, James Lofton, Billy Shaw, Chris Hanburger, Jim Brown, Ralph Wilson, Jr., Frank Gifford

Third Row: John Elway, Cortez Kennedy, Joe Namath, Fred Biletnikoff, Dan Rooney, Leroy Kelly, Paul Warfield, Tom Mack, Dan Fouts, Mel Renfro, Charley Trippi, Ken Houston, Harry Carson, Marshall Faulk

Fourth Row: Chris Doleman, Warren Moon, Dermontti Dawson, Charlie Joiner, Lynn Swann, Roger Wehrli, Dick Butkus, Dave Wilcox, Ted Hendricks, Jerry Rice, Floyd Little, Willie Lanier

Fifth Row: Jan Stenerud, Ron Mix, Dwight Stephenson, Bobby Mitchell, Kellen Winlsow, Anthony Muñoz, Art Monk, Charlie Sanders, Carl Eller, Bob St.Clair, Ronnie Lott, Bobby Bell, Jimmy Johnson

Sixth Row: Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Jackie Smith, Michael Irvin, Dave Casper, Howie Long, Troy Aikman, Sam Huff, Russ Grimm, Art Shell, Ozzie Newsome

Seventh Row: Willie Roaf, Curtis Martin, Rickey Jackson, Gale Sayers, Bob Griese, Lenny Moore, Joe Gibbs, Jim Otto, Paul Krause, Roger Staubach

Eighth Row: Randall McDaniel, Gary Zimmerman, Fred Dean, Franco Harris, Mel Blount, John Madden, John Hannah, Joe DeLamielleure, Jack Youngblood, Rayfield Wright, Jackie Slater, Andre Tippett
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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Curtis Martin didn't deserve to go into the Hall of Fame either.
I totally agree. I don't ever remember Martin taking over a game. He only had one 200 yard rushing game in his career, and scored 3 TD's 3 times. In 97 of his 168 games he didn't even average 4 ypc. Yes, he was a steady Eddie for a long time, but that to me does not exemplify greatness. I also think that if he had played in Buffalo or Jacksonville he doesn't get in, but since he played in huge markets and was a good guy in his community he got a lot of bonus votes.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Bill Parcells is a god.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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Bill Parcells is a god.
I really liked Parcells' speech. I thought he paid tribute to those who helped him along the way in a very sincere manner. I liked how he decided to choose George Martin as his presenter, saying that his loyalty to the coaches, the organization, and his teammates was "unwavering." And I liked what he said to his ex-wife. It came across as a sincere thank you and an apology that was long overdue.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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I really liked Parcells' speech. I thought he paid tribute to those who helped him along the way in a very sincere manner. I liked how he decided to choose George Martin as his presenter, saying that his loyalty to the coaches, the organization, and his teammates was "unwavering." And I liked what he said to his ex-wife. It came across as a sincere thank you and an apology that was long overdue.
He's my favorite coach of all time. If I could have any coach in league history for my team, I'm going with 80s Parcells coaching tree. I just loved everything about the guy.

He was a Jersey guy, through and through. Loved Parcells.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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There are reports that Walter Jones will be eligible in 2014, one year earlier than expected. That should make next year's list of finalists a lot more interesting and difficult to predict. Jones and Will Shields at OL. Charles Haley and Michael Strahan at DE. Derrick Brooks and Marvin Harrison are eligible as well for the first time. Harrison will join Andre Reed and Tim Brown as the best WR candidates. Aeneas Williams and Jerome Bettis also made last year's cut down to the Final 10, which bodes well for their future enshrinement. Only a maximum of 5 can be selected.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/ey...the-2014-class

”The Seahawks left tackle was a nine-time Pro Bowler and made first-team All-Pro four times. Jones wasn’t suppose to eligible for the Hall of Fame until 2015, but the Hall recently ruled that because Jones spent his final season in 2009 on injured reserve, he would be eligible a year earlier in 2014.”

http://www.seahawks.com/news/article...9-1c9e36b85a91

”The Hall will call Walter Jones a year earlier than expected.

The Seahawks’ dominating left tackle will be eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2014, rather than 2015, the Hall has determined. Jones’ final season with the Seahawks was 2009, but he spent the entire season on injured reserve so his five-year waiting period for Hall of Fame consideration began a season ahead of the anticipated timeline.”
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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I hope Aeneas Williams can get in one of these years. He played the same time as Deion and was a polar opposite personality, which combined with playing on a lackluster Cardinals team kept him from becoming the household name that Deion, Darrell Green and Rod Woodson were... but IMO he was right up there with being the best CB in the league. He locked guys down in the desert for a decade and was still an upper echelon CB in his twilight years with the Rams.

He retired with 55 career INTs and returned 9 of them for TDs, which is good for 4th All-Time. 8 Time Pro-Bowler and 3 Time All-Pro, he's got the credentials to get in and seeing he was a finalist the past 2 seasons it should only be a matter of time.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:11 AM    (permalink
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Not really different than the arguments against Curtis Martin not getting in.
RBs need stats to get into the HOF. Bettis has those. His career rushing attempts, total rushing yards and total rushing TDs alone will get him into Canton.
I think HOF voters really value durability at the one position that endures more physical punishment than any in football.

Any RB who has over 13K rushing yards and a 13 year career is 'unusual'.

Only a handful of RBs historically have done what Bettis has over his entire career.
Bettis has only been eligible for Canton for three years. No he's not a first ballot HOFer, but by most standards Bettis is a HOF RB.

THurmon Thomas played 13 seasons and has significantly fewer rushing yards and rushing TDs than Bettis. I know Thomas was one of the great pass catching RBs in league history, but still.

People seem to think if a RB doesn't average 1400 yards and 15 TDs a season at 5 yards a carry for an entire career, he isn't HOF worthy.

That's nonsense.

Maybe we define performance differently, but IMO there was nothing like watching a 5'11, 260# Bettis with the foot quickness and cutting ability of a 210# RB juke a LB and barrel into a safety with another LB on his back.
RB need numbers but they also need more then that. Just because you have big numbers in itself does not mean anything. RB rushing for 13,000 yards is not common but does make the rb necessarily special. It could just mean the player played for a long time had a great o line his whole other career and other factors. Football HOF is less concerned with stats then baseball.
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