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Old 02-11-2013, 05:10 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Eh, if Eli goes down the season is over, so lets give as many different guys looks that they wouldn't get if we were gunning for the SB. Either way, we're not realistically tanking any time soon.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Clowney is not happening.

There are some good FA DTs to choose from. If we can free up enough money to sign back our guys and sign a DT, I'm all for it.

Seymour, Starks, Dorsey, Pot Roast, Bryant, they are all guys I'd be interested in. That also gives Marvin Austin one final chance to really capture the starting job and run with it. I don't expect him to, but maybe the front office is secretly banking on it.

I think Pot Roast, Bryant, and possibly Starks are all gonna be out of our price range. Starks will still command a solid contract, Bryant will demand a good contract, and Knighton will as well.

Seymour might be cheap enough bc of his age, and Dorsey might be affordable bc of his lack of production.

There's a couple of things we need to keep in mind:

1. The Giants have a history under Coughlin to fill the DT position with either mid round picks or mid level FAs. I don't think we value the position all that much.

2. These DTs will come off the field on 3rd down.

3. Fewell's system doesn't ask DTs to penetrate. He has both DTs play a 2 gap read where they occupy linemen and allow the LBs to flow to the ball. So guys with experience in a 2 gap scheme might be on the radar.

Considering our tight budget, the scheme, and the limited snaps this DT will get, I think Seymour is our best bet. He 2 gapped under Bellichick. He's scheme diverse, he can play LE or DT. He's big and long, 2 things we covet in DLmen, he's gonna be affordable bc of his age, he has pedigree and can be a vocal presence on the team, and perhaps a winning organizaiton can rejuvenate him.

He's 33, he has maybe 2 more years left in the tank. We love stop gaps, and he can be one. Give him a 3 year contract. I'd love Seymour on our team. When I saw him play he was far from washed up, he was still very productive. He's not a long term answer but we're not looking for one. We just need a guy who can give us quality snaps. He does that and some.

I think he could be a very nice, affordable and quality asset we add to the team. Will it happen? Probably not. But I would love the move if we made it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Agreed completely. I'd love to get Seymour next to Joseph, with Austin, Kuhn and a mid round pick backing them up.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Agreed completely. I'd love to get Seymour next to Joseph, with Austin, Kuhn and a mid round pick backing them up.
That would be a nice rotation.

I am curious to see what the front office does at MLB, it could be that they think Herzlich, Williams and Paysinger are ready to step up.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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That would be a nice rotation.

I am curious to see what the front office does at MLB, it could be that they think Herzlich, Williams and Paysinger are ready to step up.
Hopefully they draft a damn linebacker. That's what they need to do.

Herzlich is a backup at best. I want him to thrive just as much as the next guy, but let's be honest, the dude has a metal rod in his leg. He's not the answer. He was a nice feel good story but we need someone better.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Seymour is kind of meh. I'm afraid to bank on him to be a starting DT for us. At the right price I wouldn't mind though. That and as long as it doesn't prevent us from going after a DT in the draft.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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I hope it wouldn't. Bc we still need to draft youth at the position. Him being an old 2 year rental shouldn't stop us from drafting a DT if one is available.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Hopefully they draft a damn linebacker. That's what they need to do.

Herzlich is a backup at best. I want him to thrive just as much as the next guy, but let's be honest, the dude has a metal rod in his leg. He's not the answer. He was a nice feel good story but we need someone better.
It seems like every year we are drafting one..

2012- 0
2011 - 2
2010 - 1
2009 - 1
2008 - 2
2007- 1

It some point we have to develop these guys faster. Same with the mid round draft picks at the OL position that you and I joke about. How many of those guys worked or developed? The fact those guys aren't doing much isn't good thing.

I want to see our development especially on defense go faster. Having terrible DCs and musical DCs in general doesn't help either. I want to see what happens with Mark H, and JW. Maybe Rivers can stop being a china doll for once, and play up to this talent.

But the Koets, Petrus, and so on need to be developed faster, and of course injuries have hurt us too. Let's see how McCants, Mosely, and Brewer do now. I am starting to really hate the mid round waste of a pick OL position.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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It seems like every year we are drafting one..

2012- 0
2011 - 2
2010 - 1
2009 - 1
2008 - 2
2007- 1

It some point we have to develop these guys faster. Same with the mid round draft picks at the OL position that you and I joke about. How many of those guys worked or developed? The fact those guys aren't doing much isn't good thing.

I want to see our development especially on defense go faster. Having terrible DCs and musical DCs in general doesn't help either. I want to see what happens with Mark H, and JW. Maybe Rivers can stop being a china doll for once, and play up to this talent.

But the Koets, Petrus, and so on need to be developed faster, and of course injuries have hurt us too. Let's see how McCants, Mosely, and Brewer do now. I am starting to really hate the mid round waste of a pick OL position.
You gotta understand man, it's not always about development. You talk about developing these mid round guys like they're all supposed to pan out. You'll be lucky if 30% of them do. That's why theyre mid round picks. They're a shot in the dark.

You expect your first 3 rounds to produce. After that you hope for depth and if you're lucky, you can get a guy who has a career longer than 4 years. That's if you're lucky.

But you can't expect every 4th and 5th round pick to develop. They're not going to.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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You gotta understand man, it's not always about development. You talk about developing these mid round guys like they're all supposed to pan out. You'll be lucky if 30% of them do. That's why theyre mid round picks. They're a shot in the dark.

You expect your first 3 rounds to produce. After that you hope for depth and if you're lucky, you can get a guy who has a career longer than 4 years. That's if you're lucky.

But you can't expect every 4th and 5th round pick to develop. They're not going to.
They are developmental guys, and of course you want to develop. Hell, our own FO uses the term raw, developmental guy. Now not panning out is a realistic element, but you are drafting those guys to develop them. There is a reason why Reese loves that part of the draft. To find a guy with the raw goods, and then the coaches develop them into a player. Reese has stated this past years in pressers.

And while I don't expect each of guy to become good, I expect to hit everyone now and then. We have been going mid round OL and swinging and missing. Even, Reese or Ross said about Petrus they expected him to be a Rich S. type guard. Not a high ceiling but consistent pro like he was. I remember that, and he went backwards and regressed and now isn't on the team. You can't have that happen. You need to develop guys to keep the plug and chug element of the team there.

The teams who can do this don't overpay for their players because the next guy is developed for their system. The Steelers had this for a long time with Dick L. as the DC.

You draft these guys at that spot because they are not the perfect prospect. They have pluses you like, but have some faults that don't make them ideal. It's your job to develop them and give them that teaching element to play. I understand some don't make it and some do, but you draft these raw mid round guys for developing them.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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Hopefully they draft a damn linebacker. That's what they need to do.

Herzlich is a backup at best. I want him to thrive just as much as the next guy, but let's be honest, the dude has a metal rod in his leg. He's not the answer. He was a nice feel good story but we need someone better.
I agree with you, but we have seen it many times where we have gone with the in house talent.

I guess it all depends on how the LBs are rated by our scouts and how our board shapes up.

There are quite a few LBs I'd like to see on this team.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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At the same time we need to draft guys that fit our system.

Sintim is the classic example, he was a 3-4 OLB in my opinion and not a good fit for us at all.

Thinking about it, the same kind of thing happened with Torbor and heck also happened with Kiwanuka.

Why do we keep trying to convert DEs and 3-4 OLBs at SLB when we could have brought in guys with the speed and athleticism to play the position?
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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A lot of mocks on NFL.com have us drafting Tyler E. from ND. Is that kid even good? If that was the case Fleener would have been the option last year. I like my offensive players, but I don't want us to draft a TE. Is this kid even good?
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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They are developmental guys, and of course you want to develop. Hell, our own FO uses the term raw, developmental guy. Now not panning out is a realistic element, but you are drafting those guys to develop them. There is a reason why Reese loves that part of the draft. To find a guy with the raw goods, and then the coaches develop them into a player. Reese has stated this past years in pressers.

And while I don't expect each of guy to become good, I expect to hit everyone now and then. We have been going mid round OL and swinging and missing. Even, Reese or Ross said about Petrus they expected him to be a Rich S. type guard. Not a high ceiling but consistent pro like he was. I remember that, and he went backwards and regressed and now isn't on the team. You can't have that happen. You need to develop guys to keep the plug and chug element of the team there.

The teams who can do this don't overpay for their players because the next guy is developed for their system. The Steelers had this for a long time with Dick L. as the DC.

You draft these guys at that spot because they are not the perfect prospect. They have pluses you like, but have some faults that don't make them ideal. It's your job to develop them and give them that teaching element to play. I understand some don't make it and some do, but you draft these raw mid round guys for developing them.
We have been relatively successful in the middle of the draft though, so what more do you want?

We haven't done a great job with mid round OL and LB selections. That is true. But you can't view the middle of the draft in a vacuum for specific positions. Some guys just don't work out. It happens. I wouldn't hold my breathe expecting to get starters out of some of these "developing" guys bc it's unrealistic. We'll be lucky if we get 1. The rest are just depth.

And we have to keep in mind, what we view as a successful draft pick doesn't necessarily mean getting a starter. If you land a guy in the 5th who can give you depth for 3 years as a backup OL, that's a decent pick. If he flames out and gets cut after 3 years, it's not the end of the world.

That's not necessarily a bad pick. Your expectations of these mid round guys is a bit unrealistic. You make your money in the first 3 rounds. Everything beyond that is just gravy.

I hope we get 3 players out of every draft. That's all I ask for. That's a successful draft.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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We have been relatively successful in the middle of the draft though, so what more do you want?

We haven't done a great job with mid round OL and LB selections. That is true. But you can't view the middle of the draft in a vacuum for specific positions. Some guys just don't work out. It happens. I wouldn't hold my breathe expecting to get starters out of some of these "developing" guys bc it's unrealistic. We'll be lucky if we get 1. The rest are just depth.

And we have to keep in mind, what we view as a successful draft pick doesn't necessarily mean getting a starter. If you land a guy in the 5th who can give you depth for 3 years as a backup OL, that's a decent pick. If he flames out and gets cut after 3 years, it's not the end of the world.

That's not necessarily a bad pick. Your expectations of these mid round guys is a bit unrealistic. You make your money in the first 3 rounds. Everything beyond that is just gravy.

I hope we get 3 players out of every draft. That's all I ask for. That's a successful draft.

Well it's the mid rounders at OL I been looking back and realizing none of them developed. Injuries hurt, sure, but still. Beatty developed slow, and messed his eye up. This season when it starts he will be 28 years old. Man
time flies, I feel like he has been sitting and waiting forever and now the dude is a FA and 28 to boot. No one can beat out Booth? Baas is a china doll and hasn't lived up to his contract. Snee is hurt and not sure how long he lasts AND the lastly no RT.

That's pretty dire, and we been going to the well so often for mid round picks you know this from our back and forth. Can someone step please? Koets broken, Whimper gone, Petrus gone, and now a new batch of guys consisting of Mosley, McCants, and Brewer. Will someone step up please?

Like I said, I understand not all can be starters, but the goal is always looking to find diamonds in the rough and polish them. One must temper their expectations but it's the team that can get guys they think can fit their system and hope to develop them. In our case our system changes so how can one develop a player if that happens? Now, factor in a system that's not sound, then it makes it that much harder.


And your philosophy is backwards. Listen to our FO, specifically Reese and Ross. You make your money on the 2nd day man. Not the first 3 rounds. This I know from listening to them because talking to old man garrett he even said the 2nd day is that day. I remember this because Ross and Reese both have said this in past draft presser, post draft recap pressers, and in general interviews.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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The 2nd day is where the scouts earn their money sure, but realistically you want to hit in the first 3 rounds. That's just the realistic way of looking at it.

The OL is what it is. I hope 2 of those guys step up too. But I didn't see anything from any of them to give me hope. Brewer, he just looks mediocre. At best. The other 2 were just rookies. I can't tell on them yet but neither caught my eye.

I just like investing in our defense. Bc the offense we have Eli. You can get away with investing less in the offense and still getting great production bc Eli makes it work. He makes an awful OL look good enough, he makes his weapons better, etc. We can get away with investing less on that side of the ball.

But on defense, you don't have a guy who can do that for an entire unit. There's no qb of the defense in that sense. So you need to invest heavier on that side of the ball.

We have too many holes to fill at once. All we can hope for is Eli do what Eli do on offense, and hopefully our DL gets good again and gets hot at the right time. We won 2 championships that way. That's our blueprint.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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round 1: Arthur Brown

round 2: Kawan Short.

It'd be sex, but then we'd need a DE. It sucks because Arthur Brown's the only MLB I like from this class. Wanna watch more Minter. Like a Ziggy-Minter draft would also be so awesome
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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I think Brown is gonna be there in the 2nd.

There's too many DL and OL prospects out there for Brown to go in the 1st. I just don't see it.

And nobody has him projected in the 1st and he doesn't look like a guy who will blow the combine up and shoot up boards. He's a 2nd rounder.

We already have 3 guys ahead of him at LB in Te'o, Oggletree, and Minter (by most accounts).
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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There's so many different combinations of players that I like in the 1st and 2nd rounds that it will be pretty hard for Reese to piss me off this year.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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There's so many different combinations of players that I like in the 1st and 2nd rounds that it will be pretty hard for Reese to piss me off this year.
I think pretty much the same :)
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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See, I think Brown's better than all 3 ILB's you listed. It's going to be interesting.

This draft there are SO many directions or guys we can go. I wish it were draft day already :(
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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What do you guys think of Sheldon Richardson out of Missouri? There are a lot of top flight DTs out there this year and he might be my favorite. He has a non-stop motor and can be great playing next to Linval.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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The 2nd day is where the scouts earn their money sure, but realistically you want to hit in the first 3 rounds. That's just the realistic way of looking at it.

The OL is what it is. I hope 2 of those guys step up too. But I didn't see anything from any of them to give me hope. Brewer, he just looks mediocre. At best. The other 2 were just rookies. I can't tell on them yet but neither caught my eye.

I just like investing in our defense. Bc the offense we have Eli. You can get away with investing less in the offense and still getting great production bc Eli makes it work. He makes an awful OL look good enough, he makes his weapons better, etc. We can get away with investing less on that side of the ball.

But on defense, you don't have a guy who can do that for an entire unit. There's no qb of the defense in that sense. So you need to invest heavier on that side of the ball.

We have too many holes to fill at once. All we can hope for is Eli do what Eli do on offense, and hopefully our DL gets good again and gets hot at the right time. We won 2 championships that way. That's our blueprint.


Well yeah you want to hit on the earlier parts more because that's where your money is invested in. Hence messing up a # 1 overall could be damaging to the franchise, especially pre rookie scale. Heck, you want to hit as many times as possible, but scouts love the 2nd day. They consider that day the money day because that's where you want to hit and try to develop these raw guys.

See I think that's a big mistake putting it all on Eli will make it better basket. Just like the put everything in the pass rush basket and pray for the best. This year we saw that. Where is the pass rush? What the heck? Eli why aren't going playing well? What happened to the offense? Curse them! Why no comebacks?

As Giants fans, we have been spoiled in that regard. Pass rush, where is it?!?!! Don't worry, calm down, Eli will save us and bail us out. And when the offense couldn't it was time to hit the panic button. I saw this early on and we talked about this, you and I. All year I wasn't comfortable with this team, and even so offensively. Defense I always have ZERO confidence in. Now it's preset like that. However, the offense was an issue, and that was an issue more so than the past. It was a total blackout, from system, players, injuries and play calling. It was a s.. show across the board.

The defense isn't going to win for us. It's an offensive league, and we have to first hire the right guy. If we can't do that then we can't rely on luck that the bad DC will coach well when it counts to win. Props to Fewell for adjusting and listening to Rolle. But this past year the defense was bad. The offense will help us win and our defense just has to come along and hope they don't totally blow it for us.

And the league caught up to our blueprint. Why hold the ball for 5 and 7 step drops when you can get rid of it earlier? We saw that a lot this year. Teams doubled JPP and dared Osi and Tuck to bring it. Our blitzes stunk, and weren't disguised well. That meant they didn't get home, and we got bent over and railed. If you want defense, and that's fine, first let's get a good DC for once. I'd like to see the defense carry their weight for a full season for once. WE have an easier schedule this year so Fewell better do well! My fear is we extend him then because of it. LOL.

Let's see how this off season pans out. The offense is our driving force of success.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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See, I think Brown's better than all 3 ILB's you listed. It's going to be interesting.

This draft there are SO many directions or guys we can go. I wish it were draft day already :(
I like him a lot too, and don't necessarily disagree with you. But his physical limitations make him a 2nd round pick. To be a 1st round ILB you need great physical tools. Tools he doesn't have.

I love him too but I'll be shocked if he goes in the 1st. He reminds me a lot of Demeco Ryans.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Well yeah you want to hit on the earlier parts more because that's where your money is invested in. Hence messing up a # 1 overall could be damaging to the franchise, especially pre rookie scale. Heck, you want to hit as many times as possible, but scouts love the 2nd day. They consider that day the money day because that's where you want to hit and try to develop these raw guys.

See I think that's a big mistake putting it all on Eli will make it better basket. Just like the put everything in the pass rush basket and pray for the best. This year we saw that. Where is the pass rush? What the heck? Eli why aren't going playing well? What happened to the offense? Curse them! Why no comebacks?

As Giants fans, we have been spoiled in that regard. Pass rush, where is it?!?!! Don't worry, calm down, Eli will save us and bail us out. And when the offense couldn't it was time to hit the panic button. I saw this early on and we talked about this, you and I. All year I wasn't comfortable with this team, and even so offensively. Defense I always have ZERO confidence in. Now it's preset like that. However, the offense was an issue, and that was an issue more so than the past. It was a total blackout, from system, players, injuries and play calling. It was a s.. show across the board.

The defense isn't going to win for us. It's an offensive league, and we have to first hire the right guy. If we can't do that then we can't rely on luck that the bad DC will coach well when it counts to win. Props to Fewell for adjusting and listening to Rolle. But this past year the defense was bad. The offense will help us win and our defense just has to come along and hope they don't totally blow it for us.

And the league caught up to our blueprint. Why hold the ball for 5 and 7 step drops when you can get rid of it earlier? We saw that a lot this year. Teams doubled JPP and dared Osi and Tuck to bring it. Our blitzes stunk, and weren't disguised well. That meant they didn't get home, and we got bent over and railed. If you want defense, and that's fine, first let's get a good DC for once. I'd like to see the defense carry their weight for a full season for once. WE have an easier schedule this year so Fewell better do well! My fear is we extend him then because of it. LOL.

Let's see how this off season pans out. The offense is our driving force of success.
All I heard was blah blah blah I love offense. I can't wait to see us draft a defensive player lol. Know your place! You can get excited in round 4. First 3 rounds belong to defense.
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